[Tom Bishop]

http://astro.ukho.gov.uk/nao/online/index.html#dmdiag

And what makes you think those are records of observations? I didn't know that the UK had invented the time machine.

[inquisitive]

http://astro.ukho.gov.uk/nao/online/index.html#dmdiag

And what makes you think those are records of observations? I didn't know that the UK had invented the time machine.

Do have evidence of any errors in past or future data?

I assume you accept that dateandtime.com is correct for your location. If not please tell us the errors.

[Tom Bishop]

http://astro.ukho.gov.uk/nao/online/index.html#dmdiag

And what makes you think those are records of observations? I didn't know that the UK had invented the time machine.

Do have evidence of any errors in past or future data?

I assume you accept that dateandtime.com is correct for your location. If not please tell us the errors.

I ask for basic evidence and you ask me to prove you wrong? That is a lousy debating strategy.

[inquisitive]

http://astro.ukho.gov.uk/nao/online/index.html#dmdiag

And what makes you think those are records of observations? I didn't know that the UK had invented the time machine.

Do have evidence of any errors in past or future data?

I assume you accept that dateandtime.com is correct for your location. If not please tell us the errors.

I ask for basic evidence and you ask me to prove you wrong? That is a lousy debating strategy.

No, that we agree the data is correct.  Is there any reason to thonk it is incorrect and not correctly calculated, please provide your version.. Do believe calendars for next year are correct?

[GiantTurtle]

I ask for basic evidence and you ask me to prove you wrong? That is a lousy debating strategy.

I provided evidence and you are claiming the evidence is wrong and refusing to give an explanation of why. As you do with evidence such as whether passenger jets can fly supersonic, whether cable laying ships know how much they use, whether people know how long roads are and more.

Here is a list of observations taken from 1767 that match the predictions of the round earth model, a 12 hour day on the equinox.
https://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/PR-NAO-01767/119
Do I need evidence that the sun is not over the poles on the equinox in addition to this? I see it is accepted within the wiki and elsewhere on the forums.

[Tom Bishop]

I ask for basic evidence and you ask me to prove you wrong? That is a lousy debating strategy.

I provided evidence and you are claiming the evidence is wrong and refusing to give an explanation of why.

I didn't say it was wrong. I asked to see evidence of your hypothesis.

Here is a list of observations taken from 1767 that match the predictions of the round earth model, a 12 hour day on the equinox.
https://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/PR-NAO-01767/119
Do I need evidence that the sun is not over the poles on the equinox in addition to this? I see it is accepted within the wiki and elsewhere on the forums.

Look at the title of that book.

Look at the definition of the word "ephemeris."

From Google definitions:

e·phem·er·is

- a table or data file giving the calculated positions of a celestial object at regular intervals throughout a period.

- a book or set of such tables or files.

[TropeADope]

http://astro.ukho.gov.uk/nao/online/index.html#dmdiag

And what makes you think those are records of observations? I didn't know that the UK had invented the time machine.

Tom, don't you regularly use ENaG and 100 proofs as evidence for FET?

[douglips]

I'm not understanding something here.

When we say that ancient egyptians were able to predict eclipses, the answer is that through centuries of observation you can discern patterns. You dismiss any relationship between these observations and an actual model of the universe, you say that through observation alone you can predict these things.

If that pattern is described by an equation, why does it become illegitimate? Why is it less legitimate to predict the sunrise from such an equation or pattern of observation than it is to predict eclipses? This doesn't say anything about flat earth or round earth, just that "at latitude X and longitude Y, we predict sunrise at time HH:MM" - and that prediction is correct day in and day out for thousands of years.

I don't think you question eclipse predictions, or timing of the full moon, or any other observations that have been made for thousands of years - and when it is so easy to see a mistake if one occurs, why can't we accept an equation instead of observing the timing of a sunrise?

If you ever find the prediction to be in error you have your "a-ha" moment.

[douglips]

OK, maybe here's a method of observation that scales.
timeanddate.com for Penzance England (about as far West as you can go in England):
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/uk/penzance

And for Great Yarmouth England (about as far East as you can go in England):
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/uk/great-yarmouth

Observations of solar output for Great Britain:
https://www.solar.sheffield.ac.uk/pvlive/#

[douglips]

Germany:
https://www.energy-charts.de/power.htm?source=solar-wind&week=45&year=2017
(click "expanded" to see solar power better)

West Germany timeanddate.com (Aachen)
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/germany/aachen

East Germany timeanddate.com (Berlin)
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/germany/berlin

France:
http://www.rte-france.com/en/eco2mix/eco2mix-mix-energetique-en
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/france/brest (west)
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/france/strasbourg (east)

A specific place in England (Newquay):
http://www.newquayweather.com/wxsolarpv.php
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/@2641589
Right now the 8th of November looks like a particularly good weather day to see the curve.

All of this data supports the idea that when you calculate sunrise and sunset you get an accurate prediction based on latitude and longitude.

This doesn't mean anything about the shape of the earth, just that you have to admit we have a good understanding of how long the day is and when sunrise and sunset are given a latitude and longitude and date.

[douglips]

Here's a community based pv generation data aggregation site:
https://www.pvoutput.org/

Claims to have data from over 1 million solar installations.

You can look on a map and find installations, for example in the Netherlands:
https://www.pvoutput.org/listmap.jsp?sid=53293
Here's a specific station:
https://www.pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=37744&sid=34523&dt=20171106
From the map, it's in Enschede Netherlands.
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/netherlands/enschede

For the 6th of November, a good sun day, timeanddate.com predicts sunrise of 7:37 AM and sunset of 4:54 PM. You can see from the graph that the power generated starts within about 10 minutes after predicted sunrise, and ends within about 10 minutes before predicted sunset.

So now, instead of asking a billion individual people, I've got a million (and growing) machines connected to the internet verifying the predictions of timeanddate.com.

[GiantTurtle]

Yes, the ephemeris contains predictions.
However the 1797 and 1941 editions contain the raw data tables used for the verification.

However this is now irrelevant since round the world data has been found by douglips which confirms both the time and dates given are correct and that days are twelve hours long on the equinox.

[Tom Bishop]

Here's a community based pv generation data aggregation site:
https://www.pvoutput.org/

Claims to have data from over 1 million solar installations.

You can look on a map and find installations, for example in the Netherlands:
https://www.pvoutput.org/listmap.jsp?sid=53293
Here's a specific station:
https://www.pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=37744&sid=34523&dt=20171106
From the map, it's in Enschede Netherlands.
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/netherlands/enschede

For the 6th of November, a good sun day, timeanddate.com predicts sunrise of 7:37 AM and sunset of 4:54 PM. You can see from the graph that the power generated starts within about 10 minutes after predicted sunrise, and ends within about 10 minutes before predicted sunset.

So now, instead of asking a billion individual people, I've got a million (and growing) machines connected to the internet verifying the predictions of timeanddate.com.

There is something called twilight, which lasts for hours  Without direct comfirmation none of your evidence is very strong, and your numbers do not appear to last a full 12 hours either.

[inquisitive]

Here's a community based pv generation data aggregation site:
https://www.pvoutput.org/

Claims to have data from over 1 million solar installations.

You can look on a map and find installations, for example in the Netherlands:
https://www.pvoutput.org/listmap.jsp?sid=53293
Here's a specific station:
https://www.pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=37744&sid=34523&dt=20171106
From the map, it's in Enschede Netherlands.
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/netherlands/enschede

For the 6th of November, a good sun day, timeanddate.com predicts sunrise of 7:37 AM and sunset of 4:54 PM. You can see from the graph that the power generated starts within about 10 minutes after predicted sunrise, and ends within about 10 minutes before predicted sunset.

So now, instead of asking a billion individual people, I've got a million (and growing) machines connected to the internet verifying the predictions of timeanddate.com.

There is something called twilight, which lasts for hours  Without direct comformation .none of your evidence is very strong, and your numbers do not appear to last a full 12 hours either.

What is direct confirmation?

[douglips]

Here's a community based pv generation data aggregation site:
https://www.pvoutput.org/

Claims to have data from over 1 million solar installations.

You can look on a map and find installations, for example in the Netherlands:
https://www.pvoutput.org/listmap.jsp?sid=53293
Here's a specific station:
https://www.pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=37744&sid=34523&dt=20171106
From the map, it's in Enschede Netherlands.
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/netherlands/enschede

For the 6th of November, a good sun day, timeanddate.com predicts sunrise of 7:37 AM and sunset of 4:54 PM. You can see from the graph that the power generated starts within about 10 minutes after predicted sunrise, and ends within about 10 minutes before predicted sunset.

So now, instead of asking a billion individual people, I've got a million (and growing) machines connected to the internet verifying the predictions of timeanddate.com.

There is something called twilight, which lasts for hours  Without direct comformation .none of your evidence is very strong, and your numbers do not appear to last a full 12 hours either.

Twilight does not last for hours. Except for extreme northern locations, twilight lasts less than one hour, usually more like half an hour each (morning and evening.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight

What is direct confirmation? Can someone on this forum with solar panels tell you when they start developing power?

[GiantTurtle]

It seems that your criticism of the data rests on the claim that solar panels can operate during twilight (ie they can operate at night). Which seems unlikely but I will concede that point to you and I assume the assumption that each model will behave the same to the same light regardless where on earth it is.
So can we agree that on the equinox every sample point receives a roughly equal number of hours of sunlight to each other sample point?

[3DGeek]

Here's a community based pv generation data aggregation site:
https://www.pvoutput.org/

Claims to have data from over 1 million solar installations.

You can look on a map and find installations, for example in the Netherlands:
https://www.pvoutput.org/listmap.jsp?sid=53293
Here's a specific station:
https://www.pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=37744&sid=34523&dt=20171106
From the map, it's in Enschede Netherlands.
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/netherlands/enschede

For the 6th of November, a good sun day, timeanddate.com predicts sunrise of 7:37 AM and sunset of 4:54 PM. You can see from the graph that the power generated starts within about 10 minutes after predicted sunrise, and ends within about 10 minutes before predicted sunset.

So now, instead of asking a billion individual people, I've got a million (and growing) machines connected to the internet verifying the predictions of timeanddate.com.

There is something called twilight, which lasts for hours  Without direct comformation .none of your evidence is very strong, and your numbers do not appear to last a full 12 hours either.

Twilight does not last for hours. Except for extreme northern locations, twilight lasts less than one hour, usually more like half an hour each (morning and evening.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight

What is direct confirmation? Can someone on this forum with solar panels tell you when they start developing power?

Besides - solar power plants start producing energy more or less as soon as there is sunlight cast upon them - the data shows that they consistently start producing measurable energy within 15 minutes of sunrise and shut off 15 minutes before sunset.    This is PLENTY accurate enough to prove that the sunrise/sunset times are inconsistent with any flat earth map.

If you pick either equinox and look at the times when stations along the same line of longitude start and stop producing power - the times are within minutes of each other - and that's enough to disprove both the unipolar AND bipolar maps.

[douglips]

Besides - solar power plants start producing energy more or less as soon as there is sunlight cast upon them - the data shows that they consistently start producing measurable energy within 15 minutes of sunrise and shut off 15 minutes before sunset.    This is PLENTY accurate enough to prove that the sunrise/sunset times are inconsistent with any flat earth map.

I was looking for a source for some information like that and sadly didn't find anything. I believe this is the case, I just don't have any evidence other than what we see on pvoutput.org. That's why I'm asking Tom what "direct proof" would be - if someone on this forum has solar panels and can measure when with respect to observed AND predicted sunrise the panels start producing power, would that be good enough?

[3DGeek]

Besides - solar power plants start producing energy more or less as soon as there is sunlight cast upon them - the data shows that they consistently start producing measurable energy within 15 minutes of sunrise and shut off 15 minutes before sunset.    This is PLENTY accurate enough to prove that the sunrise/sunset times are inconsistent with any flat earth map.

I was looking for a source for some information like that and sadly didn't find anything. I believe this is the case, I just don't have any evidence other than what we see on pvoutput.org. That's why I'm asking Tom what "direct proof" would be - if someone on this forum has solar panels and can measure when with respect to observed AND predicted sunrise the panels start producing power, would that be good enough?

I do - and I could - but Tom says he won't believe what "we and our friends" say.

I would expect that close to a million solar independent power users reporting data through PVoutput.org would be exactly the kind of thing he's been demanding.

It's independent - no government can be faking the data.  It's complete.   It appears to be a very neat fit for what timeanddate.org says.

They aren't "predictions" - they are actual measurements.  This is very hard to deny.

[mtnman]

I do - and I could - but Tom says he won't believe what "we and our friends" say.

I would expect that close to a million solar independent power users reporting data through PVoutput.org would be exactly the kind of thing he's been demanding.

It's independent - no government can be faking the data.  It's complete.   It appears to be a very neat fit for what timeanddate.org says.

They aren't "predictions" - they are actual measurements.  This is very hard to deny.

Yet, anything that disproves FE must ignored or deflected by them or their whole house of cards falls apart.