[Rushy]

What sort of medicine do you consider to be unnatural, Tom?

[Tom Bishop]

Tom, you had a bunch of parasites or something trying to kill you a short while ago. Why were you so ill for so long when all you needed was a bit of Vitamin C?

I did just need a bit of Vitamin C for my condition. It took me a while to discover that my doctor was a fraudulent health practitioner and a shill of the pharmaceutical companies. That's why I'm here telling people about natural remedies like Vitamin C now. When you take a large amount of Vitamin C, especially Lipospheric Vitamin C or a Vitamin C IV, you can feel it get to work immediately. Whatever pains you have in your body literally melt away, and you become incredibly clear of mind. If the disease has been beating down on your energy levels, Vitamin C will bring a boost of energy unlike anything you've felt before. You feel as if you can run a marathon, and jump from jump roof top to roof top, that nothing can stop you.

Vitamin C isn't everything, admittedly. I also discovered MSM, an organic sulfur contained in brocolli and other vegetables, which aids in general detoxification. Parasites and bad microorganisms thrive in a toxic, acidic environment. This is often why the sickly complain of inflamed and aching bodies. The diseases have turned your body into an environment more of its liking. MSM is a natural compound the body uses to strip away acid, normalize pH, coat surfaces with a compound hostile to parasites, and make cells throughout the body more permeable for other substances like Vitamin C to come into the cells to do its business. It makes it less likely that the diseases will return and regrow.

All of this helped me where $30,000 in exploring traditional medicine did not. Natural medicine truly is incredible.

[garygreen]

How do you know those stories to be absolutely true?  Because you read them on the internet?  Those stories could easily be fabrications.  Which sounds simpler to you: that springs with magical healing properties are being completely overlooked by virtually everyone on the planet because doctors are somehow hiding them (although not very well, apparently); or, that these stories were fabricated by an industry with the means, opportunity, and billion-dollar motive to do so?

But, the stories of people curing themselves with radioactive water are generally true nonetheless. Water form radioactive springs was popular 100 years ago, and touted to cure disease. There is water which flows from a spring in the Grotto of Massabielle in the Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes, France, a historical site where thousands of people have traveled in search of a cure since the 1800's, and still do today. The internet is littered with stories about Lourdes. It's also a topic of discussion on forums like curezone.com and others, where people claim to have seen benefit. It's a historical miracle spot maintained by the Vatican, which maintains a hospital near the spring to accommodate visitors in search of a cure.

You didn't answer my questions.  You claim that these wells cure diseases.  You said these claims about radioactive springs and vitamin C and all that are "absolutely true."  Can you prove that?  How do you know that these stories are true?  How do you know that they aren't fabrications? 

Chinese pharmaceutical companies are not the authority on Vitamin C. The authorities on Vitamin C are the people who are writing the books and conducting studies. Vitamin C was first popularized by a Chemist named Linus Pauling, a Nobel Prize winner, who published books and studies on the benefits of Vitamin C, bringing the benefits into the public eye, campaigning for over 30 years for the substance to be recognized as a medical treatment.

Let's talk about Linus Pauling.  Let's also talk about Hoffman-La Roche, the pharmaceutical company that used to dominate the vitamin C market until being convicted of leading a price-fixing cartel in the largest anti-trust case ever decided in the US.  Guess what?  They funded and reviewed Pauling work.  Whoops.

Pauing's vitamin C research was funded by frauds and liars: http://worldtracker.org/media/library/Science/Science%20Magazine/science%20magazine%201981-1982/Science%201981-1982/root/data/Science_1981-1982/pdf/1981_v212_n4499/p4499_1126.pdf

Pauling - says, "We live a hand-to-mouth existence here." But despite the lack of NCI funding, his research in vitamin C has continued with money provided by private donations and the Hoffmann-La Roche Foundation. A spokeswoman from Hoffmann-La Roche says Pauling received a grant for his "interesting theories, but more data needs to be generated to support his ideas."

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pauling.html

The Linus Pauling Institute of Science and Medicine was founded in 1973 and operated under that name until 1995 [20]. The institute was dedicated to "orthomolecular medicine." For many years, its largest corporate donor was Hoffmann-La Roche, the pharmaceutical giant that produces most of the world's vitamin C.

http://scienceblogs.com/seed/2006/04/10/science-marches-on-over-linus/

The real trouble started when other researchers tried–and failed–to replicate his results. Despite exhaustive examination, today the efficacy of vitamin C as a cold and flu treatment remains questionable. Three successive studies by the prestigious Mayo Clinic testing orally administered vitamin C demonstrated no significant cancer-fighting effects. Additionally, it was revealed that Hoffman-La Roche, a company that at the time produced most of the world’s vitamin C supplements, extensively funded Pauling’s Institute.

Or maybe you'd like to hear it from Pauling himself.

A. No. No. Well, $300,000.00 over what time period? They give us $100,000.00 per year. We have to sort of squeeze it out of them, but we've managed to get it for several years now.
Q. So you have donations of $100,000.00 per year from Hoffman-La Roche?
A. That's right.

These same liars and frauds are the ones who reviewed The Pauling Institute's research.  That's super legit.  You can totally trust Hoffmann-La Roche to be honest with you about how much of their vitamin C you should be buying.

Like this research paper:

Written in February 2011 by:
Victoria J. Drake, Ph.D.
Linus Pauling Institute
Oregon State University

Reviewed in February 2011 by:
Juerg Haller, Ph.D.
F. Hoffman-La Roche Ltd
Basel, Switzerland

The study was paid for by Bayer, though, so nbd.  They're not a giant of big pharma or anything.

I wasn't saying that China is an authority on vitamin C.  I was saying that if you're taking it, then you bought it from big pharma.  There's a reason for that.  You think you're abandoning traditional medicine for naturalist medicine.  You aren't.  You're just buying a different big pharma product, researched and marketed by convicted frauds.

[Tom Bishop]

What sort of medicine do you consider to be unnatural, Tom?

Pharmaceutical drugs are unnatural. Chemotherapy is unnatural. Gallbladder removal surgery is unnatural. Basically everything a regular physcian does to teat disease is unnatural.

My Naturopathic Physician cures far more people of cancer with his Vitamin C IVs than a radiologist does, presuming his patients follow directions. He cures chronic conditions which are considered incurable in allopathic medicine. I would bet my life on it, as well as my family's.

[Rushy]

Pharmaceutical drugs are unnatural.

Most pharmaceutical drugs occur in nature. For example, one of the most prominent and well known antibiotics, Penicillin, naturally occurs as a mold.

Chemotherapy is unnatural.

See above.

Gallbladder removal surgery is unnatural.

That's not a type of medicine, Tom.

Basically everything a regular physcian does to teat disease is unnatural.

You must have a strange definition of the term natural.

My Naturopathic Physician cures 5 to 10 times more people of cancer with his Vitamin C IVs than a radiologist does, presuming his patients follow directions. He cures chronic conditions which are considered incurable in allopathic medicine. I would bet my life on natural medicine, as well as the life of my family

Why do I even bother? I told myself not to fall for this. God dammit.

[Tom Bishop]

Most pharmaceutical drugs occur in nature. For example, one of the most prominent and well known antibiotics, Penicillin, naturally occurs as a mold.

Penicillin is not natural to the human body.

Please recall:

"The arguments like 'Not everything that's natural is good for you. Rattlesnake poison is natural!' fall flat because what is meant when you hear that natural substances are better for you is that substances natural to the human body are better for you. Not star plasma, clearly. The body recognizes things like vitamins and plants and knows how to process them."

Gallbladder removal surgery is unnatural.

That's not a type of medicine, Tom.

Western medicine is a concept that encompasses more than just drugs.

Medicine Definition
dictionary.search.yahoo.com
n. noun
- The science and art of diagnosing and treating disease or injury and maintaining health.

[markjo]

Most pharmaceutical drugs occur in nature. For example, one of the most prominent and well known antibiotics, Penicillin, naturally occurs as a mold.

Penicillin is not natural to the human body.

That depends on how you define "natural to the human body".  One could argue that since the human body does not make or store vitamin C, then it isn't "natural to the human body" either.

[Rushy]

Penicillin is not natural to the human body.

Please recall:

"The arguments like 'Not everything that's natural is good for you. Rattlesnake poison is natural!' fall flat because what is meant when you hear that natural substances are better for you is that substances natural to the human body are better for you. Not star plasma, clearly. The body recognizes things like vitamins and plants and knows how to process them."

But Tom, this isn't your argument. Your argument is that natural medicine is better, not medicine natural to the body is better. Furthermore, as Markjo pointed out, most substances aren't produced by the body, including protein.

Western medicine is a concept that encompasses more than just drugs.

Medicine Definition
dictionary.search.yahoo.com
n. noun
- The science and art of diagnosing and treating disease or injury and maintaining health.

Two can play this game, Tom:

med·i·cine
noun \ˈme-də-sən, British usually ˈmed-sən\

: a substance that is used in treating disease or relieving pain and that is usually in the form of a pill or a liquid

[Rama Set]

My Naturopathic Physician cures 5 to 10 times more people of cancer with his Vitamin C IVs than a radiologist does, presuming his patients follow directions.

Citation required.

He cures chronic conditions which are considered incurable in allopathic medicine.

Citation required.

I would bet my life on natural medicine, as well as the life of my family

Yes, we know.

[Tom Bishop]

You didn't answer my questions.  You claim that these wells cure diseases.  You said these claims about radioactive springs and vitamin C and all that are "absolutely true."  Can you prove that?  How do you know that these stories are true?  How do you know that they aren't fabrications?

I've seen these people post on the health forums I frequent. There are stories littered all around the internet about these things, from multiple sources. News organizations have reported on this spring over the last 150 years, and Vitamin C over the last 60. Corroboration from multiple unconnected sources constitutes evidence.

Let's talk about Linus Pauling.  Let's also talk about Hoffman-La Roche, the pharmaceutical company that used to dominate the vitamin C market until being convicted of leading a price-fixing cartel in the largest anti-trust case ever decided in the US.  Guess what?  They funded and reviewed Pauling work.  Whoops.

So what? They may have thought that there was a chance that Vitamin C would become a standard treatment at the time and their domination of the Vitamin C market would become extremely valuable. That's good on them for supporting a natural substance.

http://scienceblogs.com/seed/2006/04/10/science-marches-on-over-linus/

The real trouble started when other researchers tried–and failed–to replicate his results. Despite exhaustive examination, today the efficacy of vitamin C as a cold and flu treatment remains questionable. Three successive studies by the prestigious Mayo Clinic testing orally administered vitamin C demonstrated no significant cancer-fighting effects. Additionally, it was revealed that Hoffman-La Roche, a company that at the time produced most of the world’s vitamin C supplements, extensively funded Pauling’s Institute.

The Mayo clinic used low oral doses in an attempt to refute Pauling's work, when the work clearly called for high dose Intravenous Vitamin C.

See this article: Vitamin C, Linus Pauling was right all along. A doctor's opinion

Pauling had performed a series of trials with Dr Ewan Cameron, a Scottish cancer specialist, showing that intravenous vitamin C allowed cancer patients to live much longer than expected. Numerous other studies confirmed this effect, particularly the work of Dr Abram Hoffer and Dr Hugh Riordan. The Mayo Clinic tried to refute this research but failed, as they used low, oral doses, making their results invalid. In their own cancer paper, the NIH researchers claimed that Pauling and Cameron's use of the IV route was "serendipitous", implying that Pauling did not know the difference between injected and oral doses. In fact, Pauling had written explicitly about this difference, so the NIH criticism was misplaced.

The study was paid for by Bayer, though, so nbd.  They're not a giant of big pharma or anything.

I wasn't saying that China is an authority on vitamin C.  I was saying that if you're taking it, then you bought it from big pharma.  There's a reason for that.  You think you're abandoning traditional medicine for naturalist medicine.  You aren't.  You're just buying a different big pharma product, researched and marketed by convicted frauds.[/list]

There's nothing wrong with buying natural substances from a pharmaceutical company running a supplement company on the side. Good on them. They need to refrain from fixing prices, however, and move more towards healthier natural solutions.

[Tom Bishop]

Most pharmaceutical drugs occur in nature. For example, one of the most prominent and well known antibiotics, Penicillin, naturally occurs as a mold.

Penicillin is not natural to the human body.

That depends on how you define "natural to the human body".  One could argue that since the human body does not make or store vitamin C, then it isn't "natural to the human body" either.

The body doesn't need to produce it, for a substance to be natural to it. Why would that be suggested at all? Is water not natural to a fish?

But Tom, this isn't your argument. Your argument is that natural medicine is better, not medicine natural to the body is better.

But that is my argument. When someone says that natural substances are better for the human body, what would make you think they are talking about substances natural to the stars, such as star plasma? Uranium is natural. But clearly, those people aren't talking about uranium.

In such conversations the discussions are about substances natural to the human body.

Western medicine is a concept that encompasses more than just drugs.

Medicine Definition
dictionary.search.yahoo.com
n. noun
- The science and art of diagnosing and treating disease or injury and maintaining health.

Two can play this game, Tom:

med·i·cine
noun \ˈme-də-sən, British usually ˈmed-sən\

: a substance that is used in treating disease or relieving pain and that is usually in the form of a pill or a liquid

Since I'm the one who first used the word medicine in the title of the thread, I'm the one setting the meaning. Maybe you should have asked what I meant. I believe I also mentioned some procedures and lifestyles when talking about natural medicines, such as liver flushing, implying that I'm talking about more than pills and liquids.

[Tau]

Can you rigorously define what 'natural to the body' means? It seems to me like an unfixed goalpost of sorts. Anything you like can be arbitrarily defined as 'natural' while anything you dislike is 'unnatural'. What differentiates your definition from the No True Scotsman Fallacy?

[Rama Set]

Corroboration from multiple unconnected sources constitutes evidence.

So then, Elvis is alive?  Jesus and the Virgin Mary do appear to people all over the world?  Aliens have landed on Earth?

You should rethink your standard of evidence, because it is not as strong as you think it is.

[markjo]

You didn't answer my questions.  You claim that these wells cure diseases.  You said these claims about radioactive springs and vitamin C and all that are "absolutely true."  Can you prove that?  How do you know that these stories are true?  How do you know that they aren't fabrications?

I've seen these people post on the health forums I frequent. There are stories littered all around the internet about these things, from multiple sources. News organizations have reported on this spring over the last 150 years, and Vitamin C over the last 60. Corroboration from multiple unconnected sources constitutes evidence.

So you believe random people on the interwebs who tell you that vitamin c cures cancer, but you won't believe the space man who tells you that the earth is round?  Got it.

[Tom Bishop]

Can you rigorously define what 'natural to the body' means? It seems to me like an unfixed goalpost of sorts. Anything you like can be arbitrarily defined as 'natural' while anything you dislike is 'unnatural'. What differentiates your definition from the No True Scotsman Fallacy?

I don't see what is difficult to understand. Humans and their ancestors have breathed air into their lungs for millions of years. Therefore air in the lungs is natural to humans.

Corroboration from multiple unconnected sources constitutes evidence.

So then, Elvis is alive?  Jesus and the Virgin Mary do appear to people all over the world?  Aliens have landed on Earth?

You should rethink your standard of evidence, because it is not as strong as you think it is.

Those stories often are not corroborated. Someone seeing the Virgin Mary appearing to them over a spring cannot be corroborated. However, someone dying of cancer, given months to live, and then being cured after drinking the water from a spring can be corroborated. The story is corroborated by the caretakers, family members, and reporters around them who witness the recovery.

Some of those corroborators are more unconnected than others, such as the reporters who interview the patient, their doctors, and write up their story about the spring.

When multiple events like these happen, it just strengthens the evidence that the spring has some sort of property to it that inhibits or kills disease.

So you believe random people on the interwebs who tell you that vitamin c cures cancer, but you won't believe the space man who tells you that the earth is round?  Got it.

Multiple corroborating reports of the earth being round is evidence. If multiple sources are claiming that experience, with no contradicting evidence, it should be accepted as truth.

However, significant evidence of deception and fraud by the sources can call the claims into question.

[markjo]

So you believe random people on the interwebs who tell you that vitamin c cures cancer, but you won't believe the space man who tells you that the earth is round?  Got it.

Multiple corroborating reports of the earth being round is evidence. If multiple sources are claiming that experience, with no contradicting evidence, it should be accepted as truth.

However, significant evidence of deception and fraud by the sources can call the claims into question.

If only you were as skeptical of "natural medicine" as you are of NASA.

[Saddam Hussein]

Upper forum discussion belongs in the upper forums.

[Rama Set]

Can you rigorously define what 'natural to the body' means? It seems to me like an unfixed goalpost of sorts. Anything you like can be arbitrarily defined as 'natural' while anything you dislike is 'unnatural'. What differentiates your definition from the No True Scotsman Fallacy?

I don't see what is difficult to understand. Humans and their ancestors have breathed air into their lungs for millions of years. Therefore air in the lungs is natural to humans.

Corroboration from multiple unconnected sources constitutes evidence.

So then, Elvis is alive?  Jesus and the Virgin Mary do appear to people all over the world?  Aliens have landed on Earth?

You should rethink your standard of evidence, because it is not as strong as you think it is.

Those stories often are not corroborated. Someone seeing the Virgin Mary appearing to them over a spring cannot be corroborated. However, someone dying of cancer, given months to live, and then being cured after drinking the water from a spring can be corroborated. The story is corroborated by the caretakers, family members, and reporters around them who witness the recovery.

Some of those corroborators are more unconnected than others, such as the reporters who interview the patient, their doctors, and write up their story about the spring.

When multiple events like these happen, it just strengthens the evidence that the spring has some sort of property to it that inhibits or kills disease.

So you believe random people on the interwebs who tell you that vitamin c cures cancer, but you won't believe the space man who tells you that the earth is round?  Got it.

Multiple corroborating reports of the earth being round is evidence. If multiple sources are claiming that experience, with no contradicting evidence, it should be accepted as truth.

However, significant evidence of deception and fraud by the sources can call the claims into question.

What are the controls on the Vitamin C experiments?  Sources please.  Until I see those, the corroboration can be placed under the correlation != causation category.

[Tom Bishop]

What are the controls on the Vitamin C experiments?  Sources please.  Until I see those, the corroboration can be placed under the correlation != causation category.

The controls at the clinic in the pancreatic cancer video I posted were the rest of the pancreatic cancer patients in the world who have a 1% survival rate through mainstream methods. The clinic need not recruit people to die. Allopathic medicine already does that. Pancreatic cancer is basically a death sentence, and is not something that spontaneously regresses on its own. Since a majority of the pancreatic cancer patients at the clinic who took Vitamin C IVs showed regression, it proved that Vitamin C cured the cancer.

The man who had Stage 4 liver cancer is also controlled by the fact that basically all of the people at Stage 4 die. After being put on Vitamin C IVs he regressed, proving again that Vitamin C cured the cancer.

There are other studies for Vitamin C which do not involve sentencing people to die, which clinics are willing to conduct placebo-controlled. Case controlled studies show that Vitamin C aids in stroke recovery. Controlled studies have shown that Vitamin C reduces the frequency of colds. A controlled study at Berkey study shows that Vitamin C reduces heart disease markers. A study shows that Vitamin C reduces depression. Another study shows that Vitamin C prevents respiratory infections. There are also studies showing that Vitamin C reduces wrinkles and age spots. A placebo-controlled study shows that Vitamin C improves blood pressure.

Vitamin C also:

Reduces fatigue and increases one's desire for physical activity - http://www.fasebj.org/content/28/1_Supplement/828.3
Repairs the lungs of chronic smokers - http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/94/1/6.short
Reduces lead toxicity - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10204833?dopt=Abstract
Improves hypertension - http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/97/22/2222.short
Reduces general mortality - http://journals.lww.com/epidem/Abstract/1992/05000/Vitamin_C_Intake_and_Mortality_among_a_Sample_of.3.aspx
Prevents Coronary Heart Disease - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19674720 & http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10385496?dopt=Abstract
Puts the cancer of mice into remission - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18678913?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=1
Inhibits Diabetes - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10840986
Prevents exercise induced Asthma - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23794586
Reduces incidents of Cataracts - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17265171?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=4
Prevents Gout - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19273781?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=1
Improves the immune system - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/914459?dopt=Citation

And much more. There are plenty of things that Vitamin C helps with that haven't been studied, and which Naturopathic Physicians treat for. Your ignorance of this vitamin is by design. There is a conspiracy to keep you ignorant about vitamins and natural medicines. The human body is perfectly capable of repairing and curing itself. It simply needs a good supply of the ammunition it already uses.

[EnigmaZV]

Before I read your links Tom. I'd like to make sure that all of these studies are done on people who have had normal levels of vitamin C and had a proper diet before taking these supplements.