The Flat Earth Society
Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Investigations => Topic started by: Waterguy12 on May 28, 2019, 07:13:07 PM
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Hi guys. I'm looking for an experiment that would prove the Earth is flat, so that I could do. I'm hoping I could do it in under an hour, for not that expensive. If so, could you guys send me the procedure? Thanks everyone.
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Here are my first suggestions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeQfmDi0v3k
pasting them here so you don't even have to watch the vid:
@7:26 Test #1: Observe an object disappear into the distance... does it vanish bottom first?
@9:55 Test #2: Can you see farther from a higher altitude?
@10:42 Test #3: Measure the angle between eye-level and the ocean at different altitudes... does the horizon really rise to eye-level?
@13:11 Test #4: Is there horizon at all?
@15:03 Test #5: Watch the sun/moon rise and set. Do they dip below the horizon and come back on the other side?
@17:16 Test #6: Measure the angular size of the sun/moon as they traverse the sky
@22:58 Test #7: Measure the rate the moon/sun move across the sky and compare that with round vs flat models of the earth
@25:19 Test #8: Take the compass bearing to the sunrise and/or sunset during the next equinox
@28:05 Test #9: What is the relationship between the elevation of the North Star and your location on Earth?
@30:14 Test #10: Triangulate the location of any star using 3 people in 3 different cities
@31:17 Test #11: Take time-lapse photos of the night sky in the northern hemisphere and the southern hemisphere. Do the stars appear to rotate in opposite directions?
@33:42 Test #12: Look up the location of the ISS in the night sky and go and see it for yourself
@34:36 Test #13: Notice the relationship between the phase of the moon and its location in the sky relative to the sun.
@36:00 Test #14: How do the phases of the moon compare when viewed from different locations on Earth? Is the moon is upside-down in the southern hemisphere?
@38:19 Test #15: Watch a lunar eclipse.
@39:23 Test #16: Try to make a semi-accurate map of the flat earth using commercial direct flights between cities to approximate the distance between them.
@40:22 Test #17: Watch a shadow climb a tall building at sunset
@40:53 Test #18: Drive around your city and look at every satellite dish you can find... what radio source are they pointing towards?
@41:45 Test #19: Go see a Foucault pendulum or make your own
@42:14 Test #20: Pay attention to all the tropical storms this summer. Which way to they rotate? See the pattern?
Some other suggestions I'd make are:
Flat Earth Math 7 (it says 15, but he never finished it) flat earth experiments you can do at home:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLoGRYf-thOeVnz_XWImCtZYsI_dItpTB8
Here's another one... this is a variation of my #3 as suggested by Antonio Subirats. Sadly, his original video is gone, but here's Critical Think with the relevant clip... (please forgive the sarcastic voice-overs from CT... as I said, the original is no longer available... but it's a good test!):
https://youtu.be/54FiuS9ZplM?t=50
If you find any of these experiments interesting at all, this is a subject I'm (obviously) interested in. Please share which ones you find valuable. If you want any collaborators, let us know. Others might be willing to do the experiments too and share results.
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Where is home?
City centre? Rural? Coastal?
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(https://i.imgur.com/2nZWpa1.png)
The video instructs the user to do no research into what FET says. Yet the Scientific Method says that you need to research as much about your subject matter as you can. See Step 2:
(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-swdvv2w64y/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/10753/75593/114126__62755.1558377316.jpg?c=2&imbypass=on)
What you are suggesting is to do the equivalent of pouring a cup of water onto a beach ball and saying "look, water doesn't stick to balls, RE disproved!"
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(https://i.imgur.com/2nZWpa1.png)
The video instructs the user to do no research into what FET says. Yet the Scientific Method says that you need to research as much about your subject matter as you can. See Step 2:
(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-swdvv2w64y/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/10753/75593/114126__62755.1558377316.jpg?c=2&imbypass=on)
What you are suggesting is to do the equivalent of pouring a cup of water onto a beach ball and saying "look, water doesn't stick to balls, RE disproved!"
Maybe we're watching different videos, but for the image you have above for experiment #6 the author goes over both the GE and FE models, using the most common FE model available. He suggests to "Use the numbers you want, not mine..." in terms for the FE model as they are just the numbers he's heard about the model. It's incumbent on the experimenter to figure out the model they are testing or not. So the video does instruct the user to research into what FET says. There are so many FE models, it's really anyone's guess where one should start.
Why are you being such a wet blanket where ICST laid out 20 experiments anyone can do? And if you're testing a specific model, GE or one of the many FE models, go for it. Simple as that.
Maybe you could suggest an FE model and some experiments the OP could do.
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There are so many FE models, it's really anyone's guess where one should start.
That's funny. I don't find any roadblocks in researching this.
(https://i.imgur.com/A3mxzcC.png)
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There are so many FE models, it's really anyone's guess where one should start.
That's funny. I don't find any roadblocks in researching this.
(https://i.imgur.com/a7g2Ixb.png)
Never said there were roadblocks. Research away. But just for reference, there are many different models/interpretations for FE regarding many phenomena.
flat earth sun shrink search results:
Second result:
Flat-Earthers Think the Sun is Shrinking and That’s Why We Have Seasons
Third result:
"I think it could be something to do with the intensity and broadness of spectrum and size of your eyeball. At least this might explain why it stays the same size. I haven't studied optics but I imagine it may not be common sense at that scale. Just an idea for you to consider.”
"The sun shrinks. It has proven numereous times. But you don't feel it because of your perspective, point of observe. And a bit sun light reflects your observe point.”
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Interesting. So you did easily find material on the subject. The Scientific Method says that you should research as much as you can on the topic before your assessment. Do that.
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Interesting. So you did easily find material on the subject. The Scientific Method says that you should research as much as you can on the topic before your assessment. Do that.
I'm not sure what your point is. I was simply responding to what you wrote: "The video instructs the user to do no research into what FET says."
I said that was untrue. The video was saying to look into the FE model. My point is that there are many FE models so you have to kind of wade through and pick your poison, so to speak. I never said it was hard to find info on FE. There's a ton, and a ton of different models and viewpoints.
Additionally I was saying you could be helpful to the OP and perhaps point to one or some preferred models and experiments rather than just smearing the 20 that ICST so nicely laid out.
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My point is that there are many FE models so you have to kind of wade through and pick your poison, so to speak. I never said it was hard to find info on FE. There's a ton, and a ton of different models and viewpoints.
Research what they say and assess them, designing your experiments around those theories. Refusing to do research on the subject matter is dishonest.
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(https://i.imgur.com/2nZWpa1.png)
The video instructs the user to do no research into what FET says...
This is just Tom attempting to derail the conversation. He doesn't want you to perform any of those tests.
In my video, I try my very best to be agnostic about the results of these tests and what you may or may not believe. The test that Tom flagged makes no claims about the results of the test - as none of the other tests do. When I researched this material, it was extremely clear that there is no consensus among the FE community about these numbers. I took some numbers from one particular sample, and I encouraged the viewer to follow my example WITH THEIR OWN MODEL rather than going with my example.
Let's get the conversation back on track. It is likely that several of these tests might be invalid under your own version of flat Earth theory. There's no need for you to pick at any of these tests you don't agree with. Just pick ONE that you DO agree with. That's it.
These aren't 20 "proofs" of this or that. These are 20 tests that *I* agree up-front should be able to tell the difference between a flat or a round Earth. If you choose any one of these tests, I've already pre-agreed that this test (if done correctly) should work. If you do one of these tests, I'd be happy to accept your results as evidence.
Please, let's not allow Tom to derail the thread any further.
Edit: He's continuing to attempt to derail the thread. Please don't play along.
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You couldn't find anything about it? It's the same explanation that has been part of FET and published in its literature since before you were born. Have you heard of Earth Not a Globe?
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Tom, why don't you just give an experiment that would help rather than just arguing every last thing that anyone says?
He wants an experiment. He is making some sort of seemingly honest attempt to understand the whole point of this website.
He wants to know. Accommodate him.
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Research what they say and assess them, designing your experiments around those theories. Refusing to do research on the subject matter is dishonest.
By all means, list the experiment(s) you have done, and show us the results from it/them. Likewise, if you have any results from your own research to show us ....
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Where is home?
City centre? Rural? Coastal?
I live in a populated city, and I don't have easy access to a clear horizon.
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Here are my first suggestions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeQfmDi0v3k
pasting them here so you don't even have to watch the vid:
@7:26 Test #1: Observe an object disappear into the distance... does it vanish bottom first?
@9:55 Test #2: Can you see farther from a higher altitude?
@10:42 Test #3: Measure the angle between eye-level and the ocean at different altitudes... does the horizon really rise to eye-level?
@13:11 Test #4: Is there horizon at all?
@15:03 Test #5: Watch the sun/moon rise and set. Do they dip below the horizon and come back on the other side?
@17:16 Test #6: Measure the angular size of the sun/moon as they traverse the sky
@22:58 Test #7: Measure the rate the moon/sun move across the sky and compare that with round vs flat models of the earth
@25:19 Test #8: Take the compass bearing to the sunrise and/or sunset during the next equinox
@28:05 Test #9: What is the relationship between the elevation of the North Star and your location on Earth?
@30:14 Test #10: Triangulate the location of any star using 3 people in 3 different cities
@31:17 Test #11: Take time-lapse photos of the night sky in the northern hemisphere and the southern hemisphere. Do the stars appear to rotate in opposite directions?
@33:42 Test #12: Look up the location of the ISS in the night sky and go and see it for yourself
@34:36 Test #13: Notice the relationship between the phase of the moon and its location in the sky relative to the sun.
@36:00 Test #14: How do the phases of the moon compare when viewed from different locations on Earth? Is the moon is upside-down in the southern hemisphere?
@38:19 Test #15: Watch a lunar eclipse.
@39:23 Test #16: Try to make a semi-accurate map of the flat earth using commercial direct flights between cities to approximate the distance between them.
@40:22 Test #17: Watch a shadow climb a tall building at sunset
@40:53 Test #18: Drive around your city and look at every satellite dish you can find... what radio source are they pointing towards?
@41:45 Test #19: Go see a Foucault pendulum or make your own
@42:14 Test #20: Pay attention to all the tropical storms this summer. Which way to they rotate? See the pattern?
Some other suggestions I'd make are:
Flat Earth Math 7 (it says 15, but he never finished it) flat earth experiments you can do at home:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLoGRYf-thOeVnz_XWImCtZYsI_dItpTB8
Here's another one... this is a variation of my #3 as suggested by Antonio Subirats. Sadly, his original video is gone, but here's Critical Think with the relevant clip... (please forgive the sarcastic voice-overs from CT... as I said, the original is no longer available... but it's a good test!):
https://youtu.be/54FiuS9ZplM?t=50
If you find any of these experiments interesting at all, this is a subject I'm (obviously) interested in. Please share which ones you find valuable. If you want any collaborators, let us know. Others might be willing to do the experiments too and share results.
Wow! I'll go over this when I can tonight, thank you for this detailed list!
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Where is home?
City centre? Rural? Coastal?
I live in a populated city, and I don't have easy access to a clear horizon.
That makes it somewhat harder. I personally really like the horizon tests, but those are kind of out.
You can do all the astronomical observations... size of sun/moon, angle of sun/moon, rates of motion, etc.
You can coordinate with someone else to do the triangulation types of observations.
Are you in the Northern or Southern hemisphere? Can you observe the stars in the Southern sky?
The main issue with all of these astronomical observations is that many flat Earthers don't put any stock in anything that happens in the sky. To that, I offer the same wisdom that the whole 20 tests video is based on: "You need to decide what model you want to test, and then you can test it." So if you believe the size of the Moon means nothing to the shape of the Earth, just skip over that one. If you think the horizon always rises to eye level, then you should test that. (Sadly you can't test that one I guess.)
There are the satellite tests. Again, that's relevant if you believe that satellites shouldn't be part of your FE model.
The one that anyone can do from anywhere is to make your own flat earth map based on publicly available flight information.
To summarize, I would start with what you suspect the world is like and test that. If you think the Earth cannot be spinning, then do a test based on the rotation of the Earth. If you think air pressure can't exist next to space, do a test based on air pressure, etc.
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How easy or practical is it for you to travel outwith the city, to a setting where you can observe over (say) a river valley or an ocean with islands in view?
I think you should consider experiments outwith the home.
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Hi guys. I'm looking for an experiment that would prove the Earth is flat, so that I could do. I'm hoping I could do it in under an hour, for not that expensive. If so, could you guys send me the procedure? Thanks everyone.
If such an experiment existed I think its fair to say this website and this forums would no longer exist!
It would have to be an experiment that produces a unique outcome that would only be possible to achieve on a flat surface. The outcomes to many of the experiments that flat Earthers like to say proves their belief that the Earth is flat also apply to a global Earth as well. That is the purpose of experiment where two (or more) hypotheses exist. To confirm one as correct and thereby eliminate the others.
Right now I cannot think of such an experiment but I will certainly research it and let you know if and when I come up with one.
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My take on this is that it is anything but a level playing field. On the one side is a completely fleshed out self-consistent model with a heliocentric globe earth and gravity. We can and have used this model to explain observations, make predictions and develop useful technologies. The model has evolved over many centuries and will no doubt continue to evolve as new discoveries are made. On the other side we have no agreement on a single flat earth model, no agreed upon layout let alone a map. Explanations for observations are varied and disputed and I've never seen anyone suggest a single testable prediction of something we've yet to observe which can be made from any flat earth model.
Many attempts to "prove" a flat earth use false logic, for example, trying to demonstrate a stationary earth doesn't say anything about flatness. Even if you could demonstrate the earth wasn't a globe, you can't claim you've proved it's flat, that's an argument from ignorance - it isn't round (and we don't know what it is), therefore it must be flat. Other arguments centre around gravity or what the stars are or whether the earth is stationary. None of which really pertain to the central issue.
I think it's a fruitless quest to try and prove anything one way or another and my heart sinks when I see "undeniable proof" of anything in a post title or on YouTube. I'd personally settle for a considerable lowering of the bar. Find something which demonstrably doesn't agree with the globe earth model for example or something which undermines one of the proposed flat earth models.
One idea I like is from Samuel Birley Rowbotham himself (something I brought up in earlier posts). He says (ENAG): The following is the true state of the question:--If the earth is a globe, it is certain that the degrees of longitude are less on both sides of the equator than upon it. If the degrees of longitude are less beyond, or to the south of the equator, than upon it, then it is equally certain that the earth is globular
So there you have it, measure a degree of longitude at various latitudes either side of the equator and see if the results match a globe or a flat (AE/Gleason style model) earth. Assuming the results favour a globe, this at the very least undermines one of the flat earth models and Rowbotham's own convictions. Remember, this is Rowbotham's own idea.
In Rowbotham's day this would have been an absurdly expensive and dangerous undertaking. These days we can do it from home for ourselves with google maps, streetview etc. or phone a friend if we have one in a convenient location.
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So there you have it, measure a degree of longitude at various latitudes either side of the equator and see if the results match a globe or a flat (AE/Gleason style model) earth. Assuming the results favour a globe, this at the very least undermines one of the flat earth models and Rowbotham's own convictions. Remember, this is Rowbotham's own idea.
In Rowbotham's day this would have been an absurdly expensive and dangerous undertaking. These days we can do it from home for ourselves with google maps, streetview etc. or phone a friend if we have one in a convenient location.
Norwood did this in the 1600s, and all it took was to walk from London to York, measure between, and be in each location on the same day of (in consecutive years) the year to sight to the Sun. Rowbotham came along 200 years later, by which time European and British exploration of foreign territories was well established, surely?
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So there you have it, measure a degree of longitude at various latitudes either side of the equator and see if the results match a globe or a flat (AE/Gleason style model) earth. Assuming the results favour a globe, this at the very least undermines one of the flat earth models and Rowbotham's own convictions. Remember, this is Rowbotham's own idea.
In Rowbotham's day this would have been an absurdly expensive and dangerous undertaking. These days we can do it from home for ourselves with google maps, streetview etc. or phone a friend if we have one in a convenient location.
Norwood did this in the 1600s, and all it took was to walk from London to York, measure between, and be in each location on the same day of (in consecutive years) the year to sight to the Sun. Rowbotham came along 200 years later, by which time European and British exploration of foreign territories was well established, surely?
I was assuming that Rowbotham or one of his supporters would have to perform this experiment themselves as they did with the Bedford Levels experiment. This would involve quite a bit of travelling, to the equatorial regions - Africa or South America, neither of which were exactly a day out in the park in the 1850s/1860s and then on to (probably) Australia as well. Quite a voyage to contemplate back then. Potentially risky and certainly expensive. Rowbotham suggests the experiment, but doesn't seem to leap at the idea of actually performing it. It is certainly the case that it's a considerably easier undertaking these days.
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Hi guys. I'm looking for an experiment that would prove the Earth is flat, so that I could do. I'm hoping I could do it in under an hour, for not that expensive. If so, could you guys send me the procedure? Thanks everyone.
If such an experiment existed I think its fair to say this website and this forums would no longer exist!
It would have to be an experiment that produces a unique outcome that would only be possible to achieve on a flat surface. The outcomes to many of the experiments that flat Earthers like to say proves their belief that the Earth is flat also apply to a global Earth as well. That is the purpose of experiment where two (or more) hypotheses exist. To confirm one as correct and thereby eliminate the others.
Right now I cannot think of such an experiment but I will certainly research it and let you know if and when I come up with one.
I think i devised such an experiment. The only drawback is it takes six months to be performed, but anyway it is simple and above all it allows to decide between the two hypotheses.
I will describe it without figures, i presume it will be understandable.
From north pole to equator there are 10,000 kilometers. This was measured during the past centuries with the triangulation method, a method that is suited either for a round or a flat earth, so i think it would be accepted from both parties. Anyway the experiment would work perfectly even with another distance.
I live on the parallel 45 in Europe (and then halfway between north pole and equator), but one can adjust the test for another latitude. So i am about 2,500 kilometers from the Tropic of Cancer (it's irrelevant if the value isn't exact; here we are looking for a qualitative outcome, not quantitative). And because there are about 5,000 Km from the two tropics, i am 7,500 Km away from the tropic of capricorn.
Well then, in a few weeks from now there will be the summer solstice, and the sun will be right above the tropic of cancer. In six months from now there will be the winter solstice, and the sun will be perpendicular on the tropic of capricorn.
First case: presuming the sun is 5,000 Km high (on the flat earth of course!), few days before or after the summer solstice i will be 5,590 Km away from the sun.
Second case: few days before or after the winter solstice i will be 9,000 Km away from the sun. (Pythagorean theorem, you know)
A simple trig calculation shows us that if the apparent dimension of the sun during the summer solstice is 100, its dimension would be 62 during the winter solstice. A huge difference that is impossible to underestimate.
This is the experiment: take a photo of the sun around the next summer solstice; wait six months; take a photo of the sun with the same exact setting of the camera during the winter solstice in december.
If the sun gets noticeably smaller the earth is flat. If it is the same the earth is round. Tertium non datur.
There is an important precaution to take though. We have to be sure we take a pic of the real sun, not to the glare/halo of the sun due to the interaction between the sunlight and the atmosphere. Then we have to put a filter on the camera.
This way the experiment would be correct and reliable.
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Hi guys. I'm looking for an experiment that would prove the Earth is flat, so that I could do. I'm hoping I could do it in under an hour, for not that expensive. If so, could you guys send me the procedure? Thanks everyone.
If such an experiment existed I think its fair to say this website and this forums would no longer exist!
It would have to be an experiment that produces a unique outcome that would only be possible to achieve on a flat surface. The outcomes to many of the experiments that flat Earthers like to say proves their belief that the Earth is flat also apply to a global Earth as well. That is the purpose of experiment where two (or more) hypotheses exist. To confirm one as correct and thereby eliminate the others.
Right now I cannot think of such an experiment but I will certainly research it and let you know if and when I come up with one.
I think i devised such an experiment. The only drawback is it takes six months to be performed, but anyway it is simple and above all it allows to decide between the two hypotheses.
I will describe it without figures, i presume it will be understandable.
From north pole to equator there are 10,000 kilometers. This was measured during the past centuries with the triangulation method, a method that is suited either for a round or a flat earth, so i think it would be accepted from both parties. Anyway the experiment would work perfectly even with another distance.
I live on the parallel 45 in Europe (and then halfway between north pole and equator), but one can adjust the test for another latitude. So i am about 2,500 kilometers from the Tropic of Cancer (it's irrelevant if the value isn't exact; here we are looking for a qualitative outcome, not quantitative). And because there are about 5,000 Km from the two tropics, i am 7,500 Km away from the tropic of capricorn.
Well then, in a few weeks from now there will be the summer solstice, and the sun will be right above the tropic of cancer. In six months from now there will be the winter solstice, and the sun will be perpendicular on the tropic of capricorn.
First case: presuming the sun is 5,000 Km high (on the flat earth of course!), few days before or after the summer solstice i will be 5,590 Km away from the sun.
Second case: few days before or after the winter solstice i will be 9,000 Km away from the sun. (Pythagorean theorem, you know)
A simple trig calculation shows us that if the apparent dimension of the sun during the summer solstice is 100, its dimension would be 62 during the winter solstice. A huge difference that is impossible to underestimate.
This is the experiment: take a photo of the sun around the next summer solstice; wait six months; take a photo of the sun with the same exact setting of the camera during the winter solstice in december.
If the sun gets noticeably smaller the earth is flat. If it is the same the earth is round. Tertium non datur.
There is an important precaution to take though. We have to be sure we take a pic of the real sun, not to the glare/halo of the sun due to the interaction between the sunlight and the atmosphere. Then we have to put a filter on the camera.
This way the experiment would be correct and reliable.
I support this experiment. This should work in my opinion.
For a quicker turn-around, why not just measure the size of the Sun/Moon at Noon vs a time later/earlier in the day? Wouldn't that give enough size difference to be conclusive?
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I support this experiment. This should work in my opinion.
For a quicker turn-around, why not just measure the size of the Sun/Moon at Noon vs a time later/earlier in the day? Wouldn't that give enough size difference to be conclusive?
Surely it would be decisive. But the difference in dimension is not that big, and in such cases there is always someone that begins to raise hell yelling: 'perspective!' or 'vanishing point!' and the debate never reach a conclusion.
With the solstice experiment i think there would be a hard time trying to negate the evidence (in either case, round or flat).
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Have you heard of Earth Not a Globe?
Yes, and I have also heard of a lot of other books of fiction. What's your point?
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Are you north or south of Equator?
Are you north or south of Tropic of Cancer?
What is your latitude?
Are you good at relatively simple geometry?
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If the Earth is flat, Sun's path is circle above the ground.
If the Earth is globe, Sun's apparent path is circle around the planet.
You can calculate predictions for Sun's position and angular velocity at different hours throughout the day.
Every flat model agrees with this: for summer solstice Sun is above Tropic of Cancer.
Globe model also agrees with that.
Calculate for flat and for globe for solar noon and every 30 min after until 5 pm or 5:30.
Then measure in real life the Sun's behavior.
Write down how big were angles that Sun traveled during each 30 minutes and compare which model predicted them.
EDIT: Summer solstice is on June 21st.
You can calculate and repeat for equinox and for winter solstice and compare everything.