[TomInAustin]

Let's start this here.  I hope we get some reality in this one.   

What we know.


1. GPS is a proven technology that in some cases,  is accurate to centimeters and at worst 10 to 15 meters
2. Flight times between destinations are recorded daily
3. Aircraft cruise speeds are known and are filed with flight plans

Here is my first question.  Using the following airline data, how could a flat map possibly allow these numbers?

Origin         Dest                   Miles
Sydney         Santiago           7125
Santiago         Johannesburg   5724
Johannesburg  Sydney      6909

[Tom Bishop]

Since this is all "known" and "proven" (your words), please provide this proof. Provide evidence that:

- GPS predicted distances are accurate
- Round Earth Latitude and Longitude are accurate
- Aircraft cruise speeds are measured in a way that does not use a Round Earth coordinate system

If you are making any of these claims, it is your burden to back up your argument and demonstrate it.

[Curious Squirrel]

Since this is all "known" and "proven" (your words), please provide this proof. Provide evidence that:

- GPS predicted distances are accurate
- Round Earth Latitude and Longitude are accurate
- Aircraft cruise speeds are measured in a way that does not use a Round Earth coordinate system

If you are making any of these claims, it is your burden to back up your argument and demonstrate it.

We've demonstrated these in the other thread and you've demanded more proof. How about you answer two simple questions:
1) What way to measure distance would you accept?
2) Are there any distances you would actually consider correct? Or (since the argument could be made ALL readily available distances are based on RE) do you not have any idea how far you've traveled ever?
We can then go from there with our proofs and evidence.

[Tom Bishop]

We've demonstrated these in the other thread

No, you have not. If you believe that you have, then kindly copy and paste.

and you've demanded more proof. How about you answer two simple questions:
1) What way to measure distance would you accept?
2) Are there any distances you would actually consider correct? Or (since the argument could be made ALL readily available distances are based on RE) do you not have any idea how far you've traveled ever?
We can then go from there with our proofs and evidence.

1) We would accept a method which does not involve using a Round Earth coordinate system or Round Earth assumptions.

2) I am sure there are distances which have been measured independent to Round Earth assumptions (ie., measured with a wheeled device). I do not have a list, however.

[TomInAustin]

Since this is all "known" and "proven" (your words), please provide this proof. Provide evidence that:

- GPS predicted distances are accurate
- Round Earth Latitude and Longitude are accurate
- Aircraft cruise speeds are measured in a way that does not use a Round Earth coordinate system

If you are making any of these claims, it is your burden to back up your argument and demonstrate it.

We've demonstrated these in the other thread and you've demanded more proof. How about you answer two simple questions:
1) What way to measure distance would you accept?
2) Are there any distances you would actually consider correct? Or (since the argument could be made ALL readily available distances are based on RE) do you not have any idea how far you've traveled ever?
We can then go from there with our proofs and evidence.

I am hoping someone besides Tom shows up.  He has proven he is either a troll or totally delusional.   Textbook delusional.

de·lu·sion·al
dəˈlo͞oZH(ə)nəl/Submit
adjective
characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

[TomInAustin]

We've demonstrated these in the other thread

No, you have not. If you believe that you have, then kindly copy and paste.

and you've demanded more proof. How about you answer two simple questions:
1) What way to measure distance would you accept?
2) Are there any distances you would actually consider correct? Or (since the argument could be made ALL readily available distances are based on RE) do you not have any idea how far you've traveled ever?
We can then go from there with our proofs and evidence.

1) We would accept a method which does not involve using a Round Earth coordinate system or Round Earth assumptions.

2) I am sure there are distances which have been measured independent to Round Earth assumptions (ie., measured with a wheeled device). I do not have a list, however.

Who is this "we" you keep referring to? You seem to be alone in your delusional arguments that were totally rejected and disproved.  Remember your attempt at math?  LOL.

[Curious Squirrel]

We've demonstrated these in the other thread

No, you have not. If you believe that you have, then kindly copy and paste.

and you've demanded more proof. How about you answer two simple questions:
1) What way to measure distance would you accept?
2) Are there any distances you would actually consider correct? Or (since the argument could be made ALL readily available distances are based on RE) do you not have any idea how far you've traveled ever?
We can then go from there with our proofs and evidence.

1) We would accept a method which does not involve using a Round Earth coordinate system or Round Earth assumptions.

2) I am sure there are distances which have been measured independent to Round Earth assumptions (ie., measured with a wheeled device). I do not have a list, however.

1) So if we could find a map created using trilateration and/or traversing as defined here would that suffice?

2) I'll see if I can find a somewhat straight race. To my knowledge those are measured in that manner, or at least some of them are.

Somewhat related: The eclipse has me thinking. Couldn't we get a measurement of the moon from this? If we could get the distance nailed down in some manner and use it to figure out the distance between two cities in the path of totality, then figure out the time it took to get between those two cities we would have it's speed. From there we could figure out it's diameter based on how long totality lasts for the city that has it for the longest. Shouldn't be too hard presuming we can find that first number in an agreeable manner.

[juner]

Since this is all "known" and "proven" (your words), please provide this proof. Provide evidence that:

- GPS predicted distances are accurate
- Round Earth Latitude and Longitude are accurate
- Aircraft cruise speeds are measured in a way that does not use a Round Earth coordinate system

If you are making any of these claims, it is your burden to back up your argument and demonstrate it.

We've demonstrated these in the other thread and you've demanded more proof. How about you answer two simple questions:
1) What way to measure distance would you accept?
2) Are there any distances you would actually consider correct? Or (since the argument could be made ALL readily available distances are based on RE) do you not have any idea how far you've traveled ever?
We can then go from there with our proofs and evidence.

I am hoping someone besides Tom shows up.  He has proven he is either a troll or totally delusional.   Textbook delusional.

de·lu·sion·al
dəˈlo͞oZH(ə)nəl/Submit
adjective
characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

Lay off the personal attacks in the upper fora. Warned.

[TomInAustin]

Since this is all "known" and "proven" (your words), please provide this proof. Provide evidence that:

- GPS predicted distances are accurate
- Round Earth Latitude and Longitude are accurate
- Aircraft cruise speeds are measured in a way that does not use a Round Earth coordinate system

If you are making any of these claims, it is your burden to back up your argument and demonstrate it.

You are incorrect.  It is up to you to prove GPS is not accurate, that Boeing does not know how fast the planes they make fly, and that Lat Lon is not an accurate measurement of the earth.  These are nuisance claims that are designed to avoid actually talking about the topic.  The topic is "distances" and how to map them.  I provided a perfect example, please show a map that makes them possible.

Please stay on topic and avoid low content posts.

[juner]

Since this is all "known" and "proven" (your words), please provide this proof. Provide evidence that:

- GPS predicted distances are accurate
- Round Earth Latitude and Longitude are accurate
- Aircraft cruise speeds are measured in a way that does not use a Round Earth coordinate system

If you are making any of these claims, it is your burden to back up your argument and demonstrate it.

You are incorrect.  It is up to you to prove GPS is not accurate, that Boeing does not know how fast the planes they make fly, and that Lat Lon is not an accurate measurement of the earth.  These are nuisance claims that are designed to avoid actually talking about the topic.  The topic is "distances" and how to map them.  I provided a perfect example, please show a map that makes them possible.

Please stay on topic and avoid low content posts.

I appreciate your effort here, but seeing that you are not a moderator, please refrain from acting like one. You can certainly point out if someone is straying from the topic, but it is clear you don't know what constitutes a low-content post. If you believe a post is violating the rules, please use the report function.

[TomInAustin]

Since this is all "known" and "proven" (your words), please provide this proof. Provide evidence that:

- GPS predicted distances are accurate
- Round Earth Latitude and Longitude are accurate
- Aircraft cruise speeds are measured in a way that does not use a Round Earth coordinate system

If you are making any of these claims, it is your burden to back up your argument and demonstrate it.

You are incorrect.  It is up to you to prove GPS is not accurate, that Boeing does not know how fast the planes they make fly, and that Lat Lon is not an accurate measurement of the earth.  These are nuisance claims that are designed to avoid actually talking about the topic.  The topic is "distances" and how to map them.  I provided a perfect example, please show a map that makes them possible.

Please stay on topic and avoid low content posts.

I appreciate your effort here, but seeing that you are not a moderator, please refrain from acting like one. You can certainly point out if someone is straying from the topic, but it is clear you don't know what constitutes a low-content post. If you believe a post is violating the rules, please use the report function.

What would be great is if you weighed in on this. 

[juner]

What would be great is if you weighed in on this.

What is there to "weigh in" on? I've seen the replies to Tom and the subsequent dismissal of his concerns relative to the OP. His points have been avoided instead of addressed, so I don't see any reason to engage in the topic.

[TomInAustin]

What would be great is if you weighed in on this.

What is there to "weigh in" on? I've seen the replies to Tom and the subsequent dismissal of his concerns relative to the OP. His points have been avoided instead of addressed, so I don't see any reason to engage in the topic.

So you agree with him that airplane manufacturers don't know how fast their planes fly?

Yes No

That GPS is not accurate?

Yes No

That the Lat Lon system is not accurate?

Yes No

[Curious Squirrel]

What would be great is if you weighed in on this.

What is there to "weigh in" on? I've seen the replies to Tom and the subsequent dismissal of his concerns relative to the OP. His points have been avoided instead of addressed, so I don't see any reason to engage in the topic.

Since he hasn't weighed in as of yet, would you agree with distances/maps determined via trilateration or traversing? Or would you need it to be measured out with a wheel or similar device? Do you know the distances between any two points that you could simply offer as a resource to use?

[StinkyOne]

Since this is all "known" and "proven" (your words), please provide this proof. Provide evidence that:

- GPS predicted distances are accurate
- Round Earth Latitude and Longitude are accurate
- Aircraft cruise speeds are measured in a way that does not use a Round Earth coordinate system

If you are making any of these claims, it is your burden to back up your argument and demonstrate it.

And herein lies the problem. Tom won't accept any evidence as valid. Period. We use GPS all day every day to get where we are going be it aircraft, shipping, or cars, but that isn't good enough. He wants things measured in a way that does not rely on RE coordinates. He knows that that is highly unlikely since the Earth is round and all coordinate systems reflect that. FE doesn't even have a workable map and yet the RE crowd is supposed to screw with their measurement systems? He even acknowledges the existence of GPS which is satellite based, but still clings to a dead theory.

Tom, if you are claiming the Earth is flat, the burden is on YOU. Prove that it is flat. I would love to see that.

[TomInAustin]

As expected, no one wants to have an honest debate.

[Curious Squirrel]

As expected, no one wants to have an honest debate.

The issue I'm currently seeing is neither of the two who have replied so far want to nail down an accepted way to measure distance. Without that of course they can just keep saying we don't know any distances. I'm down to dig up the information I've presented, but if it won't be accepted why bother? Once again, Tom, Junker, or any other FE believer who wants to chime in.

If we could find a map created using trilateration and/or traversing as defined here would that suffice?

[Curious Squirrel]

Guys, I just found something for distance in their own wiki. Check Sun's Distance - Zetetic Cosmogony in that location. From the equator to 45 degrees North or South is 3000 miles. Surely we can use this and do some comparisons and calculations?

[TomInAustin]

As expected, no one wants to have an honest debate.

The issue I'm currently seeing is neither of the two who have replied so far want to nail down an accepted way to measure distance. Without that of course they can just keep saying we don't know any distances. I'm down to dig up the information I've presented, but if it won't be accepted why bother? Once again, Tom, Junker, or any other FE believer who wants to chime in.

If we could find a map created using trilateration and/or traversing as defined here would that suffice?

In my opinion, Junker just plays word games and makes snarky comments and Tom has shown that he is only interested in derailing the threads.  Where the other faithful are, is anyone's guess.   I agree it is pointless to debate if no one shows up.  There is some value in keeping the threads bumped so new people read them, but from what I can tell, FE'ers can overlook any and all evidence that disproves what they hold dear. 

[TomInAustin]

Amazingly enough, Tom has refused to answer the only question posed in the OP

Here is my first question.  Using the following airline data, how could a flat map possibly allow these numbers?

Origin         Dest                   Miles
Sydney         Santiago           7125
Santiago         Johannesburg   5724
Johannesburg  Sydney      6909

He made a claim that aircraft speeds are determined using round earth coordinates.  Since the speeds are determined by radar then we know these are not round earth concepts.