Macarios

Let's investigate how viewing distance works.
« on: May 31, 2019, 04:23:57 PM »
Wiki says this:





If we look at the next image, we can see two groups of lines
- group from the lower observer L
- group from the upper observer U

Each line group has three lines towards the object O
- line towards the top T
- line towards the middle M
- line towards the bottom B

Obviously, the line LM is perpendicular to the object O and parallel with the surface, while the line UM is under slightly sharper angle.



The two angles of interest here are MLB and MUB.
Those are angular sizes of the lower part of the object O.
(The lower part of a building across a lake is visible by U and not visible by L.)

From M to the ground is 1.5 m.
From L to the ground is 1.5 m.
From U to the ground is 4.5 m.

LM distance is 5156 m so the angular size of MB is ArcTan (1.5 / 5156) = 0.016668671 degrees.
Being at vanishing point the lower half of the object O is not visible to the human eye.

Observer U is at the height of 4.5 m and the angle between the object and the observing line is 0.05 degrees away from the perpendicular line.
So, the angular size of the MB from his perspective is ArcTan (1.5 * cos(0.05) / 5156) = 0.016668664 degrees.

Note the last two digits. Use your own calculator to check them (knowing that anyone else can do the same).
Going higher we didn't get bigger the angular size of MB (lower half of the object O).

What we are investigating here is:

How will increase of altitude help us push back our vanishing point?

.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Let's investigate how viewing distance works.
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2019, 04:37:54 PM »
You are thinking about it as like looking at an object, rather than the entire surface. Take the object out of the picture. We can see from your image that the FOV of the second person at the higher altitude can see much more land at a broader angle than the first person.



The first person is closer to the surface, and is looking at the surface at a sharper and smaller angle.

When you look across a kitchen table at eye level with the surface of the table, as an example, the view to the end of the table makes a smaller angle to your vision than if you incrementally lift your head above it.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 04:45:15 PM by Tom Bishop »

Macarios

Re: Let's investigate how viewing distance works.
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2019, 04:43:30 PM »
Neither is looking at the surface.
They are both looking at the object.

What vanishes here at the vanishing point is not the surface, it is the lower part of the object.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Let's investigate how viewing distance works.
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2019, 05:16:33 PM »
We are looking at an infinitely long table with our eye right against its surface. When we are low to the table the distant extent of the table builds up and is making a sharper angle to the eye.

Perhaps the 1/60'th of a degree occurs at A:



When we increase our altitude we are now looking at the table at a broader angle, and it takes more distance for the extents of the table to build up and make that same sharp angle in the distance to our eye:



Eventually the view will be blocked by the opacity of the atmosphere, but it shows how the the viewing distance can increase with altitude.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 05:22:04 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Let's investigate how viewing distance works.
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2019, 06:24:35 PM »
If the 1/60th of a degree had any significance, we should be able to test that theory out with a telescope. A telescope would improve the visual resolution. Does a telescope "push back your vanishing point"?

Macarios

Re: Let's investigate how viewing distance works.
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2019, 06:26:14 PM »
Ok, we have ground (brown), and limiting atmospheric factors / opacity of the atmosphere (gray).

We have minimal resolution angle of the upper eye U in green.
We have minimal resolution angle of the lower eye L in red.
Red angle and green angle are equal.

It is obvious that none of those two eyes have obstacles that would obscure the farthest visible point A.

From L we see the portion AB.
From U we se the portion AC.

As you can see, they overlap and neither of them limits our visible distance.

We can't distinguish finer details, but we see both portions just there.


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Let's investigate how viewing distance works.
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2019, 08:37:16 PM »
I redrew the diagram with just two points. Connecting the eye to point A and B at a position closer to the table will make a very shallow angle, while connecting the eye to points A and B at a higher elevation will make a more broader angle to those points.



Near the surface of the table if points A and B are 1/60'th of a degree, they will appear to merge together. At a higher elevation points A and B may not be making 1/60'th of a degree, and will not be merged together.

If the 1/60th of a degree had any significance, we should be able to test that theory out with a telescope. A telescope would improve the visual resolution. Does a telescope "push back your vanishing point"?

Yes, a telescope will restore things which disappear to angular resolution. This is one of the premises in Earth Not a Globe. See: https://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za32.htm
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 09:43:30 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Let's investigate how viewing distance works.
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2019, 08:54:48 PM »
I redrew the diagram with just two points. Connecting the eye to point A and B at a position closer to the table will make a very shallow angle, while connecting the eye to points A and B at a higher elevation will make a more broader angle to those points.

IMG

Near the surface of the table if points A and B are 1/60'th of a degree, they will appear to merge together. At a higher elevation points A and B may not be making 1/60th of a degree, and will not be merged together.

Yes, but ... so what? You've drawn A and B in the same place. The OP quotes in reference to "pushing back the vanishing point" - where's the push back? Where's the vanishing point? If an object sits upon point A or B, has it vanished? 
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Re: Let's investigate how viewing distance works.
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2019, 09:00:29 PM »
I redrew the diagram with just two points. Connecting point A and B at a position closer to the table will make a very shallow angle, while connecting points A and B at a higher elevation will make a more broader angle to those points.



Near the surface of the table if points A and B are 1/60'th of a degree, they will appear to merge together. At a higher elevation points A and B may not be making 1/60th of a degree, and will not be merged together.

If the 1/60th of a degree had any significance, we should be able to test that theory out with a telescope. A telescope would improve the visual resolution. Does a telescope "push back your vanishing point"?

Yes, a telescope will restore things which disappear to angular resolution. This is one of the premises in Earth Not a Globe. See: https://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za32.htm
Your diagram is absolutely accurate with regards to the 1/60th of a degree.
On your top image, points A and B will appear blurred together as just a shade of brown.
In the bottom image, the points are separated a bit wider, so there is some pair of points A&B such that they are smeared together as a single color in the top, but you can tell them apart in the bottom.
This is completely correct. AFAIK, nobody argues against it.

Does that mean that point B is the "horizon" in the top image? How is this diagram even related to a horizon? What IS a horizon?

It seems to me the horizon is the dividing line where it's sky above and ground/water below. Are we agreed on that?

We've agreed that points A&B are indistinguishable until you climb higher, and then you can tell them apart. Which of these is in the sky? Neither. Point A, Point B, and the merged Points A&B are all ground-colored. None of them is sky-colored.

I'm a little confused about EXACTLY what is being debated here...

Are you guys debating about why boats/mountains/buildings vanish bottom up but reappear when you gain altitude?

Are you debating about the existence of a horizon line?

This whole argument could probably be cleared up if you guys came up with a very specific observation you were thinking of.

Macarios

Re: Let's investigate how viewing distance works.
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2019, 10:28:24 PM »
I redrew the diagram with just two points. Connecting the eye to point A and B at a position closer to the table will make a very shallow angle, while connecting the eye to points A and B at a higher elevation will make a more broader angle to those points.



Near the surface of the table if points A and B are 1/60'th of a degree, they will appear to merge together. At a higher elevation points A and B may not be making 1/60'th of a degree, and will not be merged together.

If the 1/60th of a degree had any significance, we should be able to test that theory out with a telescope. A telescope would improve the visual resolution. Does a telescope "push back your vanishing point"?

Yes, a telescope will restore things which disappear to angular resolution. This is one of the premises in Earth Not a Globe. See: https://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za32.htm

Why the eye closer to the table couldn't see wider portion of the table?
What would limit the sight to the narrower band?

Re: Let's investigate how viewing distance works.
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2019, 10:33:35 PM »
Why the eye closer to the table couldn't see wider portion of the table?
What would limit the sight to the narrower band?
Perhaps I can help you there. Tom is talking about the resolution of the human eye. It's often ballparked at around 1/60th of a degree. Biological vision is a lot more complex than a digital camera, but the same principles apply. There's a certain "resolution" to it. Like a pixel in a camera. If 2 rays of light land on the same "pixel," they cannot be separated visually.

If you are looking along a surface, all the points of that surface merge into a single line... in the extreme, they merge to a single pixel. But as you rise up and look down on the surface, the angle between the points gets larger, and the rays of light from them land on different "pixels" in your eye/camera.

That all makes sense right?

Offline reer

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Re: Let's investigate how viewing distance works.
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2019, 02:35:09 AM »
Why the eye closer to the table couldn't see wider portion of the table?
What would limit the sight to the narrower band?
Perhaps I can help you there. Tom is talking about the resolution of the human eye. It's often ballparked at around 1/60th of a degree. Biological vision is a lot more complex than a digital camera, but the same principles apply. There's a certain "resolution" to it. Like a pixel in a camera. If 2 rays of light land on the same "pixel," they cannot be separated visually.

If you are looking along a surface, all the points of that surface merge into a single line... in the extreme, they merge to a single pixel. But as you rise up and look down on the surface, the angle between the points gets larger, and the rays of light from them land on different "pixels" in your eye/camera.

That all makes sense right?
If you read Rowbotham's "Earth not a globe!", he seems to think that the vanishing point is somehow defined by the optical resolution: once the distant object gets small enough that the eye can no longer resolve it, that object is at the vanishing point, according to him. Hence smaller objects reach the vanishing point before larger ones. Which is no more than obfuscation or, in plainer terms, bullshit. Unfortunately FEers seem to accept Rowbotham as gospel.

The book is full of impressive sounding bits that, on closer examination, are just rubbish. Read his description of what happens to a ball thrown up from a ship, if you want a good laugh. And then there are his claims about how moonlight differs from sunlight. According to him, moonlight cools things down - or it leaves the temperature unchanged, depending on which page you read.

Re: Let's investigate how viewing distance works.
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2019, 03:18:11 AM »
If you read Rowbotham's "Earth not a globe!", he seems to think that the vanishing point is somehow defined by the optical resolution: once the distant object gets small enough that the eye can no longer resolve it, that object is at the vanishing point, according to him. Hence smaller objects reach the vanishing point before larger ones. Which is no more than obfuscation or, in plainer terms, bullshit...
Indeed, Rowbotham apparently ties this phenomenon into something to do with the horizon, but exactly how this ties in is vague at best. Thus my call for somebody to give us a specific observation to discuss. Let's choose a specific detail and then see how this applies to it.

First, we can take this claim at face value. Does angular resolution have anything to do with the vanishing point? Well, we must define "vanishing point" first.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vanishing%20point
1: a point at which receding parallel lines seem to meet when represented in linear perspective
2: a point at which something disappears or ceases to exist

Normally, I've seen this applied to the idea of a perspective drawing. Parallel lines (railroad tracks) appear to converge linearly into a point in the far distance. We learn that in like 4th grade art class or so. This is just perspective, and it doesn't seem at all related to angular resolution. (At least not yet.) WARNING: A little bit of math can tell you exactly where this vanishing point is, and that calculation does NOT involve angular resolution. Also, that vanishing point happens to land at infinite distance from the viewer.

So Rowbotham was wrong? I'd say no. Let's give him a fair shake here.

As those railroad tracks shrink into the distance, the angular separation between them gets smaller and smaller. At some point, the 2 tracks will be less than 1/60th of a degree apart, and at that point, we can no longer tell where one track ends and the next one begins - they look like a single track. So replace those tracks with a pair of rocks. As the rocks recede into the distance, the 2 rocks will eventually look like 1 rock. Right?

Keep going with this... if we have a rock sitting on a patch of grass, at some point, the rock will fall below your angular resolution, and it will just merge into the grass to become a blurry brownish dot in the field - something that you can't even be sure is even a thing. It will have "vanished."

So based on that, we could argue that there's a "vanishing point" beyond which we can no longer see something, and that is the "vanishing point" Rowbotham is talking about here. Is he wrong about that much? No he's got that right, although I like to point out that a telescope will bring that rock back into view.

But here is where Rowbotham gets super vague. Just because you can't make out the rock against the field of grass, that doesn't create a horizon. Looking out over an infinite field of grass, the horizon is the spot in your view where there is blue sky above and green grass below. A telescope can sharpen that line, but it won't move where that line is.

At this point is where (IMO) the science ends and the hand-waving begins. Once again, I'd like to call for someone to name a specific observation, and we can apply these principles to that observation and evaluate it all objectively.

Macarios

Re: Let's investigate how viewing distance works.
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2019, 06:18:08 AM »
Why the eye closer to the table couldn't see wider portion of the table?
What would limit the sight to the narrower band?
Perhaps I can help you there. Tom is talking about the resolution of the human eye. It's often ballparked at around 1/60th of a degree. Biological vision is a lot more complex than a digital camera, but the same principles apply. There's a certain "resolution" to it. Like a pixel in a camera. If 2 rays of light land on the same "pixel," they cannot be separated visually.

Yes. Both eyes have their minimal resolution angle of about one arc minute.
If the whole arc minute is covered with something then you don't need to distinguish details to see that something is there.

Regardless what it is, you will not perceive it as "nothing".

The upper eye's arc minute will just get covered with smaller portion of the surface, and lower eye's arc minute with bigger portion.
Viewer's altitude will not dictate the allowed range of line of sight.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2019, 06:20:20 AM by Macarios »

Re: Let's investigate how viewing distance works.
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2019, 07:24:08 AM »
Yes. Both eyes have their minimal resolution angle of about one arc minute.
If the whole arc minute is covered with something then you don't need to distinguish details to see that something is there.

Regardless what it is, you will not perceive it as "nothing".

The upper eye's arc minute will just get covered with smaller portion of the surface, and lower eye's arc minute with bigger portion.
Viewer's altitude will not dictate the allowed range of line of sight.

This is why I keep suggesting you pick a specific observation to talk about. Phrases like "line of sight" and "vanishing point" are too vague. Give is something SPECIFIC. Are you talking about objects disappearing from the bottom first? Is that it?

Macarios

Re: Let's investigate how viewing distance works.
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2019, 09:36:25 AM »
Yes. Both eyes have their minimal resolution angle of about one arc minute.
If the whole arc minute is covered with something then you don't need to distinguish details to see that something is there.

Regardless what it is, you will not perceive it as "nothing".

The upper eye's arc minute will just get covered with smaller portion of the surface, and lower eye's arc minute with bigger portion.
Viewer's altitude will not dictate the allowed range of line of sight.

This is why I keep suggesting you pick a specific observation to talk about. Phrases like "line of sight" and "vanishing point" are too vague. Give is something SPECIFIC. Are you talking about objects disappearing from the bottom first? Is that it?

Objects disappearing bottom first were covered in my first post.
After Tom's "change of subject" I'm talking of visibility of the ground all the way to the limit set by "opacity of the air" (as Tom pretty accurately described it).

Have you read this thread from the beginning?

EDIT:
If you go back to the diagram in the Reply #5 of this topic, you will see that
- U sees the ground all the way to A because his "arc minute of vision resolution" (green) is covered by the ground portion AC
- L sees the ground all the way to A because his "arc minute of vision resolution" (red) is covered by the ground portion AB

In short, they both see up to A because U sees AC and L sees AB there, not somewhere else.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2019, 11:09:39 AM by Macarios »

Re: Let's investigate how viewing distance works.
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2019, 08:39:35 PM »
If you go back to the diagram in the Reply #5 of this topic, you will see that
- U sees the ground all the way to A because his "arc minute of vision resolution" (green) is covered by the ground portion AC
- L sees the ground all the way to A because his "arc minute of vision resolution" (red) is covered by the ground portion AB

In short, they both see up to A because U sees AC and L sees AB there, not somewhere else.
Great. My apologies if this still seems remarkably vague. The best I can figure is that we're talking about how the distance to the horizon increases with altitude. Is that correct?

If so, even then, what does THAT even mean? Let me try...

Say you have a boat sitting right on the horizon. By that I mean the very bottom of the boat is no lower than the horizon line where the ocean meets the sky. Then you go up in altitude and look at the same boat. Now we can see that the bottom of the boat is below the line where the ocean meets the sky. From this, we can infer that we are seeing farther out from higher up. Is THAT what we're talking about?

If so, let me direct the discussion to this little app by Walter Bislin:
http://walter.bislins.ch/bloge/index.asp?page=Advanced+Earth+Curvature+Calculator
This is a really great app, and it shows exactly how that can work. And YES it CAN work.
Set it to flat earth mode. Observer Height 1 m, Target Distance 20,000 m, Target Size 10 m.
You'll see a little rectangle sitting on the horizon. The bottom is just a little bit lower than the horizon.
I'd like to draw your attention to the horizontal lines... see how they all pile up right at the horizon. Based on this image, where would we say the horizon is? The object is at 20 km, and there's a little bit of ground behind it, but it's all in the mashed-up lines zone, so really hard to tell.
Now raise Observer Height to 10 m. Now the little rectangle is well below the horizon. In fact the TOP of the rectangle is now lined up with the horizon. But look at the horizontal lines. The lines are clearly distinct now. We are clearly seeing farther now... at least in a manner of speaking.

This is all accurate and correct. But is it relevant to the shape of the Earth? To find out, you need a specific observation instead of these vague claims. Find some photos of a distant object taken from different heights. Check out the exact measurements, and run the numbers. Then you'll have something concrete.

Macarios

Re: Let's investigate how viewing distance works.
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2019, 05:18:50 AM »
Say you have a boat sitting right on the horizon. By that I mean the very bottom of the boat is no lower than the horizon line where the ocean meets the sky. Then you go up in altitude and look at the same boat. Now we can see that the bottom of the boat is below the line where the ocean meets the sky. From this, we can infer that we are seeing farther out from higher up. Is THAT what we're talking about?

You are getting closer.

At the end of his Reply #3 Tom said
Quote
Eventually the view will be blocked by the opacity of the atmosphere, ...

If you are on Flat earth your view will end there no matter how high you go.

If your boat is there, at the edge of your view, then going higher won't let you see any sea behind.
But on Flat earth you will still see your boat no matter how low you go.
(Unless you dive, ofcourse... :) )

Re: Let's investigate how viewing distance works.
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2019, 06:08:00 AM »
You are getting closer.

At the end of his Reply #3 Tom said
Quote
Eventually the view will be blocked by the opacity of the atmosphere, ...

If you are on Flat earth your view will end there no matter how high you go.

If your boat is there, at the edge of your view, then going higher won't let you see any sea behind.
But on Flat earth you will still see your boat no matter how low you go.
(Unless you dive, ofcourse... :) )

Indeed, I did see that, and it's just really hard to make any sense out of it. Like there's a haze out there that's sky colored, right? Once you get too far from the viewer, everything just turns to the sky color... I guess? Except the Sun and the moon... and the stars... and stuff.

So yeah that makes no sense whatsoever... but there you go.  /shrug

Re: Let's investigate how viewing distance works.
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2019, 10:01:01 AM »
Something that I am pondering related to the OP (and I wish your opinions so I will later add to the topic of Crisp Clear Horizon line https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=14746.0) is about the colour of the horizon. If all those details, too far and too small for the human eye resolution, all disappear in a single horizon line, shouldn't it be brownish instead of blue? Like when you randomly mix colours at home, a small amount of different colours will just mess up everything. In FE you're mixing mountains, woods, cities, deserts, the Sun, the Moon, etc... in a single line. Also water is transparent, so the humidity in the air shouldn't change those colours to blue.
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