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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2060 on: August 13, 2017, 01:16:54 PM »
Yep.  A tweet is all we'll get.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/896504109670567936

i love the sly implication that leftist protestors killed a police officer.
He didn't but read his whole twitter feed.
Someone's helping him write and give speeches.

Like this:
We must remember this truth: No matter our color, creed, religion or political party, we are ALL AMERICANS FIRST.
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Offline honk

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2061 on: August 13, 2017, 01:37:54 PM »
Of course Trump won't specifically blame racists for the ugly scene they created and the crime one of them committed. They're a key part of his base, and so he can't afford to isolate them.
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Offline Blanko

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2062 on: August 13, 2017, 01:55:58 PM »
listening to trump try to condemn the charlottesville violence without offending white nationalists would be p funny if it weren't so pathetic

I think he (rightfully) doesn't want to invigorate the extreme left that is just as capable of being violent.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2063 on: August 13, 2017, 02:15:47 PM »
listening to trump try to condemn the charlottesville violence without offending white nationalists would be p funny if it weren't so pathetic

I think he (rightfully) doesn't want to invigorate the extreme left that is just as capable of being violent.

How does tip-toeing around the culpability of white nationalists prevent the invigoration of the extreme left?
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2064 on: August 13, 2017, 02:45:59 PM »
listening to trump try to condemn the charlottesville violence without offending white nationalists would be p funny if it weren't so pathetic

I think he (rightfully) doesn't want to invigorate the extreme left that is just as capable of being violent.

So your theory is that he was trying not to "invigorate the extreme left", so he treated the matter in a way that would be guaranteed to anger the left. That's hilarious. Is this how Hannity's spinning it or something?
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Offline Blanko

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2065 on: August 13, 2017, 05:10:36 PM »
listening to trump try to condemn the charlottesville violence without offending white nationalists would be p funny if it weren't so pathetic

I think he (rightfully) doesn't want to invigorate the extreme left that is just as capable of being violent.

So your theory is that he was trying not to "invigorate the extreme left", so he treated the matter in a way that would be guaranteed to anger the left. That's hilarious. Is this how Hannity's spinning it or something?

I don't think it makes any difference to them what Trump says. They're already angry because of violence from the alt-right/white nationalists. If Trump were to ignore the violence coming from the left, that would be akin to a tacit admission that violence coming from one side is worse than from the other. That would set a dangerous precedent.

Anyway, Trump did condemn the violence, and I think that's what really matters.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2066 on: August 13, 2017, 05:19:03 PM »
I think he (rightfully) doesn't want to invigorate the extreme left that is just as capable of being violent.

I don't think it makes any difference to them what Trump says.

Oh these statements aren't contradictory at all.  ::)
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Offline Blanko

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2067 on: August 13, 2017, 05:24:27 PM »
I assume you're being sarcastic, so let me ask you, what's contradictory about them?

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2068 on: August 13, 2017, 05:32:59 PM »
I assume you're being sarcastic, so let me ask you, what's contradictory about them?

Roundy's right.

The first one you claim Trump had to pick his words carefully to avoid making the left angry.
But in the second statement, you claim that they'd be angry no matter what.

So the first statement implies they can be kept from being angry.  The second implies they can't.
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Offline Blanko

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2069 on: August 13, 2017, 05:42:11 PM »
No, the first statement merely concerns Trump's intentions. You must be giving him a lot of credit if you really believe what he intends is the same as what he accomplishes.

I really don't think anything Trump says can stop Antifa et al. from being violent. However, I also don't think it's smart in any circumstance to normalize their violence.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2070 on: August 13, 2017, 05:53:16 PM »
No, the first statement merely concerns Trump's intentions.

No, it also concerns your opinion of those intentions. By inserting the word "rightfully" in there you are saying you agreed with his reasoning. But then by saying you don't think it matters what he says, you are disagreeing with his reasoning. You can't have it both ways.

So... Yeah. Totally contradictory statements.

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Offline Blanko

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2071 on: August 13, 2017, 05:58:13 PM »
I inserted the word "rightfully" because I thought his intention was good. Not because I thought he succeeded in what he intended. Like I said:
However, I also don't think it's smart in any circumstance to normalize their violence.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2072 on: August 13, 2017, 06:02:44 PM »
I inserted the word "rightfully" because I thought his intention was good. Not because I thought he succeeded in what he intended.

Right, you thought it was something he was right to do, despite thinking it didn't matter whether he did it or not because what he says doesn't matter. I get it, I'm familiar with the concept of doublethink.
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Offline Blanko

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2073 on: August 13, 2017, 06:07:30 PM »
Hmm, thinking that good intentions matter is doublethink? That's interesting...

Also, I never said what he says "doesn't matter", I said it doesn't matter to the extreme left. For most other people, whether or not he normalizes violence does matter quite a bit.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 06:11:28 PM by Blanko »

Offline Blanko

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2074 on: August 13, 2017, 06:13:31 PM »
Yes, trying to bait me into admitting a purely pedantic mistake does seem quite irrelevant.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2075 on: August 13, 2017, 06:23:21 PM »
Yes, trying to bait me into admitting a purely pedantic mistake does seem quite irrelevant.

Sorry deleted my post, before I saw you had replied. It's irrelevant because Trump appeared to be assuaging the actual violent protesters making your first statement perhaps incorrect and to boot, you admit in practice his actions are pointless. It seems more likely that Trump was trying to pander to the people who actually vote for him, in this case the white supremacists over the left-wingers.
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Offline Blanko

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2076 on: August 13, 2017, 06:30:47 PM »
Yes, trying to bait me into admitting a purely pedantic mistake does seem quite irrelevant.

Sorry deleted my post, before I saw you had replied. It's irrelevant because Trump appeared to be assuaging the actual violent protesters making your first statement perhaps incorrect and to boot, you admit in practice his actions are pointless. It seems more likely that Trump was trying to pander to the people who actually vote for him, in this case the white supremacists over the left-wingers.

Hmm, why does that seem more likely to you? He condemned the violence, plain and simple. That line of thinking seems to be predicated on the notion that violence from the left is not the same as violence from the right (it certainly seems to be what CNN thinks) which I don't agree with at all, and in any case, it's not something the president should be suggesting even if he did agree with that notion.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2077 on: August 13, 2017, 07:01:35 PM »
You don't get too many opportunities as a politician to legitimately condemn literal nazis. It would, to me, seems politically expedient to take that opportunity to curry favor with centrists. I personally would have liked the far-right and the far-left protesters to have been called out since that is likely where all the inciting violence came from. It feels like a wasted opportunity to address the polarization of America which on display in miniature here.

EDIT: Not sure I really answered your question. It seems more likely that he was pandering to me because Trump has never had a problem calling out people before, especially when they are elements outside of his base. The first real high profile incident involving right wing elements and he has lost all his stridency and is now fair and balanced? Doesn't sound like the Trump I know.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 07:07:48 PM by Rama Set »
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Re: Trump
« Reply #2078 on: August 13, 2017, 10:09:05 PM »
I think he (rightfully) doesn't want to invigorate the extreme left that is just as capable of being violent.

if i hadn't been alive and conscious for the 2016 election cycle, then i could maybe buy that.  i think he's just a pathetically amoral coward.

either way, let's not restrain ourselves from criticizing violent nazis because we're afraid of hypothetical future violence by someone else.

plus he could've just addressed that directly while also displaying a modicum of moral courage:

tweet #1: nazism and white nationalism are immoral.  fuck off, nazis.
tweet #2: hey "leftists" don't use this as an excuse to be violent.  violence is wrong my dudes.  you have to let others peacefully protest even if you think they're dicks.
tweet #3: here are the concrete steps we're gonna take to keep things cool and safe. 
tweet #4: including free capri suns for both sides.
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Offline Snupes

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Re: Trump
« Reply #2079 on: August 14, 2017, 10:55:22 PM »
There are cigarettes in joints. You don't smoke it by itself.