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Offline Tom Bishop

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If you want to know what Russia's motivation was and whether they had reasoning and justification, you should go [to Russian state-controlled media outlets] and read what they have to say.
I agree, and Russian state-controlled media have made their position very clear merely days into their failed conquest. Here's an archive link for anyone interested - it's mostly readable and accurate when auto-translated.

There can be no doubt here - they told us exactly what they were after. Of course, once they realised their enormous cock-up they tried to sweep it under the rug and rewrite the narrative, but we're not silly enough to ignore their own testimony, are we, Tom?

This argument is pretty weak since we don't know if this is that the state thought or whether it is what that editor thought. It was accidentally published and can hardly be said to be a point of authority for what Russia was "really after." Since it was an accident, it is unknown whether this article went through the proper approval and signoff by Russian authorities, making this out to be a fairly weak rebuttal to the direct public statements that they wanted Ukraine to be neutral.

And the article you linked does not say that they were annexing Ukraine into Russia. It said that they were going to take out the anti-Russian militants and the country would be reorganized into something new. It leaves some question on what Ukraine would become:

---
Now this problem is gone - Ukraine has returned to Russia. This does not mean that its statehood will be liquidated, but it will be reorganized, re-established and returned to its natural state of part of the Russian world. In what borders, in what form will the alliance with Russia be fixed (through the CSTO and the Eurasian Union or the Union State of Russia and Belarus )? This will be decided after the end is put in the history of Ukraine as anti-Russia. In any case, the period of the split of the Russian people is coming to an end.

And here begins the second dimension of the coming new era - it concerns Russia's relations with the West. Not even Russia, but the Russian world, that is, three states, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, acting in geopolitical terms as a single whole. These relations have entered a new stage - the West sees the return of Russia to its historical borders in Europe . And he is loudly indignant at this, although in the depths of his soul he must admit to himself that it could not be otherwise.
---

They suggested that Ukraine would become part of the "Russian world" like Belarus. Belarus is not part of Russia. It is a separate country with shared cultural values and traditions and its own policies.

Correct, initially...

Launching the invasion on 24 February he told the Russian people his goal was to "demilitarise and de-Nazify Ukraine". His declared aim was to protect people subjected to what he called eight years of bullying and genocide by Ukraine's government. Another objective was soon added: ensuring Ukraine's neutral status.

How does one demilitarise/de-nazify and ensure an entire country's "neutral status"? That's a smidge different than, "I just want the Donbass..."

How does just annexing the Donbass accomplish those tasks? Or are you saying that now Putin just wants the Donbass and "forget about that other stuff I wanted"?

Putin clearly said that his intention was to protect and defend the breakaway regions. Protecting the breakaway regions involves taking out Ukraine's military that was attacking it.

Ukraine would become neutral by agreeing to a peace agreement in which it agreed to become neutral. In another scenario Russia could destroy the Ukrainian Government and reform it into what it wanted it to be.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2022, 05:31:13 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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This argument is pretty weak since we don't know if this is that the state thought or whether it is what that editor thought.
Then the same is true about every article you've quoted RT on. I trust you'll stop using them as a source, since you now believe it's a weak form of argumentation.

Since it was an accident, it is unknown whether this article went through the proper approval and signoff by Russian authorities
We're making so much progress today! You now agree that Russia is unbelievably incompetent, to the point of putting together an entire production-ready article without it going through the propaganda ministry, and then publishing it. The fact that it's even vaguely possible that this idiot could have written a piece like that without a diktat from above is an extreme dunk on Russian state media.

They suggested that Ukraine would become part of the "Russian world" like Belarus. Belarus is not part of Russia. It is a separate country with shared cultural values and traditions and its own policies.
Yes, that's been the USSR model since its conception. A combination of "republics" within the Union, and "independent" satellite states outside of it - there are subtle differences between how each of these creations was exploited by their empire, but it's not that grand a distinction. They suggested that, like Belarus, Ukraine would become one of the two. Of course, that won't be happening, but it's hilarious to see just how much they've exceeded the mocking expectations we've been setting up for them.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2022, 06:02:49 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Lord Dave

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Man, Russia must be so afraid of NATO.  Yet why Ukraine and not say... The several other NATO nations that border russia?

And why mass troops and invade to stop potential threats of having military bases nearby?
Wouldn't it be better to just put military bases near the border of your own country to counter?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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This argument is pretty weak since we don't know if this is that the state thought or whether it is what that editor thought.
Then the same is true about every article you've quoted RT on. I trust you'll stop using them as a source, since you now believe it's a weak form of argumentation.

Well there is a difference. The articles I posted were not retracted. Yours was, and for some reason you think that a retracted article is the same as an article that was not retracted.

Quote from: Pete Svarrior
We're making so much progress today! You now agree that Russia is unbelievably incompetent, to the point of putting together an entire production-ready article without it going through the propaganda ministry, and then publishing it. The fact that it's even vaguely possible that this idiot could have written a piece like that without a diktat from above is an extreme dunk on Russian state media.

It's not clear that you even posted what you claim is a mistake. You claim that the author posted that the war was won and that Russia defeated Ukraine, but the article clearly says that the armies are still shooting at each other:

---
"Yes, at a great cost, yes, through the tragic events of a virtual civil war, because now brothers, separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies, are still shooting at each other, but there will be no more Ukraine as anti-Russia. Russia is restoring its historical fullness, gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together - in its entirety of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. "
---

The author goes on to say what Russia is doing, will do, and that Ukraine will be reorganized, etc, but this does not mean that the author thinks the war was over. Since he says that the armies are still shooting at each other it is not obvious that this article was meant to be posted in the future after the war and was mistakenly posted.

It might have been retracted for a different reason; because the Russian government took notice of the article and did not want to speculate in that manner about what Ukraine would become. This would be an opposite reason than what you had suggested - you had suggested that this was Russia's "real" plan in this article. As if we are supposed to believe that the Russian government gives its real plans to a news website editor and tells him to promise not to say anything. This was a rather ridiculous narrative from you.

In reality Russia likely has many plans which are highly dependent on the situation and how things play out.

The author thinks that Ukraine would become a country like Belarus, which is not unreasonable. Belarus was a buffer between the Eastern and Western powers and had declared itself as neutral in its constitution for many years, until very recently when they decided to become stronger allies with Russia.

Quote
They suggested that Ukraine would become part of the "Russian world" like Belarus. Belarus is not part of Russia. It is a separate country with shared cultural values and traditions and its own policies.
Yes, that's been the USSR model since its conception. A combination of "republics" within the Union, and "independent" satellite states outside of it - there are subtle differences between how each of these creations was exploited by their empire, but it's not that grand a distinction. They suggested that, like Belarus, Ukraine would become one of the two. Of course, that won't be happening, but it's hilarious to see just how much they've exceeded the mocking expectations we've been setting up for them.

The relationship between Russia and Belarus is nothing like the USSR. Belarus today is an independent sovereign country. Belarus in the USSR was not sovereign or independent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Soviet_Union

"The dissolution of the Soviet Union[e] was the process of internal disintegration within the Soviet Union (USSR) which resulted in the end of the country's and its federal government's existence as a sovereign state, thereby resulting in its constituent republics gaining full sovereignty on 26 December 1991."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarus

"The parliament of the republic proclaimed the sovereignty of Belarus on 27 July 1990, and during the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Belarus declared independence on 25 August 1991."


The relationship between Belarus and Russia is the same as the Canada and the US, independent countries with loosely shared culture and a general shared ideals and goals. They are generally allies in many matters, but have their own disagreements:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-belarus-airbase/russia-complains-over-belaruss-refusal-to-host-air-base-idUSKBN1WB1NT

"MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia said on Thursday that Belarus’s refusal to host a military air base backed by President Vladimir Putin had been an “unpleasant episode”, a rare public display of disagreement between the close allies."


The author in your article suggested that Ukraine would become another Belarus, which is what would be expected if the anti-Russian militants in Ukraine were eliminated and there was no more rivalry between the countries. The author suggested that Ukraine would possibly join Belarus in the Eurasian Union, the CTSO, or possibly join the Union State of Russia and Belarus:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Economic_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_Security_Treaty_Organization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_State

The first one is an economic union, the second one is a defense pact, and the third one is an economic and defense pact; not unlike the pacts between US, Canada, and Europe.

This author predicted something stunningly obvious: That two neighboring countries absent of rivalries would form an economic pact or possibly a defense pact of some sort.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2022, 11:05:15 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Yours was, and for some reason you think that a retracted article is the same as an article that was not retracted.
Oh, no, not the same. It's much better than your carefully-reviewed propaganda articles from untrustworthy sources. When the orcs say something by accident and then try to sweep it under the rug, you know it's the good stuff.

I'll give you one thing, though - you were at least clever enough to try and invent possible reasons for them to sweep it under the rug. The real post-parody-USSR couldn't even muster that. You've got a difficult job pretending to support them when they can't even support themselves.

In reality Russia likely has many plans which are highly dependent on the situation and how things play out.
I'm glad you concede this point. We can now consider your own speculation on their reasoning to be null and void. We also agree that your interpretation of Russia's meek ambitions (much meeker than originally laid out!) are simply a result of "how things played out" (very badly).

The relationship between Russia and Belarus is nothing like the USSR. Belarus today is an independent sovereign country. Belarus in the USSR was not sovereign or independent.
Indeed - Belarus was promoted from an SSR to a satellite state, as Lukashenko pointed out many times before. The relationship between the two is very interesting, and you'd do well to learn about it - it'll help you with your acting. Let's start you off with something light-hearted:



Of course, I named both options already, so you're just going "uhm ackshually" at something you didn't fully understand.

This author predicted something stunningly obvious
He did. It's just not what you're pretending it is. :)
« Last Edit: October 18, 2022, 11:23:33 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline markjo

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Actually, Russia and Belarus got together and formed the Union State of Russia and Belarus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_State
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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So you guys have been going on and on with implications that the Russian invasion was unprovoked, claiming that they want to "expand across Europe", with wild analogies that the situation is like someone taking over your house, and "why cruise missiles??", disregarding their justification of defending the breakaway regions. Yet there is evidence that ethnic Russians are claiming that Ukraine has been harassing and killing them for years:



Quote from: markjo
Actually, Russia and Belarus got together and formed the Union State of Russia and Belarus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_State

And if you click on that link and read it you will find that, unlike their relationship in the USSR, Russia and Belarus are still independent states:

"Originally, the Union State aimed to create a confederation, however, both countries currently retain their independence.[6] The Union State is based on a previous international treaty between Russia and Belarus[7] made on 2 April 1997.[8] Although it consists of only Russia and Belarus, other countries are allowed to join."

Quote from: Pete Svarrior
I'm glad you concede this point. We can now consider your own speculation on their reasoning to be null and void. We also agree that your interpretation of Russia's meek ambitions (much meeker than originally laid out!) are simply a result of "how things played out" (very badly).

I don't see that Russia has failed in any of its stated goals. They never claimed that they wanted to annex all of Ukraine. They stated that they wanted to defend the breakaway regions and demilitarize Ukraine. They are succeeding at both, as evidenced by annexation of the Donbass regions and the billions in international aid and weaponry necessary to keep Ukraine afloat.

This does not look like winning to me, tbh:


« Last Edit: October 19, 2022, 03:19:11 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Алёна

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Hey, Tom bishop.
Lets bomb cities and schools in the US to protect us. It's because we need to protect ourselves and bomb innocent children for fun.
Professional procrastinator.

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Offline markjo

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Looks like the residents of the newly annexed regions are so excited about now being part of Russia that they had to declare martial law.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/10/19/putin-martial-law-annexed-ukraine-regions/
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Rama Set

C'mon!  Tom's YouTube video from an Iranian news outlet with an interview with one woman and no sources for their claims is super-duper compelling.

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Offline Iceman

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That meme sold me. Team Bear now! No one who has to ask for help can possibly win, nor could they be in the right.

Join me on the winning team, Comrades

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Offline Tom Bishop

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C'mon!  Tom's YouTube video from an Iranian news outlet with an interview with one woman and no sources for their claims is super-duper compelling.

So what do you think is happening there exactly? They paid a woman to lie about her child and create a fake cemetery ceremony?

The interviews literally are the sources, and evidence that there has been an ongoing conflict and that ethnic Russians in Donbass have been claiming that Ukraine has been killing them for years.

Here is a video from 2015 from AFP News, of people in Donbass gathering to pay tribute to children killed in the clashes between Ukraine and the separatists - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9C1Bn5stCw

Here is a video from 2019 from CBC News "Inside one of Ukraine's separatist battlegrounds" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7XiGMBjuc8

Transcript:

    (Chris Brown) There's no easy way for outsiders to see the obliterated landscape of Eastern Ukraine.
    The airport in Donetsk, the largest city in the separatist held area
    was destroyed and never rebuilt.
    Six years of war has left this place ruined.
    Our CBC crew that made it in heard a resounding desperation
    for a deal to bring peace to what many here feel is a forgotten conflict.
    We met a group of older women living a miserable existence
    underground in a former Soviet era bunker near Donetsk.
    Their lives are as emotionally shattered as the countryside above.
    There’s no heat but at least there’s running water and electricity
    and they’re safe from the shelling and snipers.
    Everyone down here is united in survival
    but they’re divided on the future of this territory.
    All are aware that Ukraine suddenly became big news in the United States
    because of the U.S. impeachment saga.
    But it’s not changed any of the misery in their lives.
    Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky has vowed to get this area back under Ukrainian control.
    He’s helped orchestrate a modest pull back of troops
    but the fighting hasn’t entirely stopped.
    In the village of Zaitseve, Masha and her grandmother Svetlana told our crew that
    barely a night that goes by where they don’t hear shooting.
    They say they’ve even found mines that were fired by artillery and landed in their garden.
    Svetlana told us she feels her home is a disposable pawn in a bigger fight
    between Russia and the West.
    Masha let our crew come with her to school which has been hit by shells and rebuilt twice.
    These 10 and 11 year olds have lived with war for as long as they can remember.
    Eastern Ukraine is more than the front line of a civil war.
    It’s at the epicentre of a battle for global influence between the west and Russia
    with exhausted, desperate innocents feeling both sides have abandoned them.
    Chris Brown, CBC News, Moscow

It looks and sounds pretty bad. This is further evidence that there was already an ongoing conflict in Ukraine before the Russian invasion that prompted this. Russia did not invade Ukraine out of the blue as a naked act of aggression, like the cartoonish narrative parroted. People were already dying in an ongoing civil war between Ukraine and Russian separatists. Russia's military entered into the conflict directly to defend the breakaway regions.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2022, 06:56:02 PM by Tom Bishop »

Rama Set

It sounds like you are back tracking on your claim that it’s all Ukraine’s fault the Donbas is a terrible place to be.

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Offline Алёна

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Hey, Tom bishop.
Lets bomb cities and schools in the US to protect us. It's because we need to protect ourselves and bomb innocent children for fun.

C'mon, Tom. Tell me what you think about Russia bombing innocent people.
Professional procrastinator.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Amnesty International studied this and explained why civilians are being killed. Ukrainians are choosing to fight from residential areas even when other options are available to them and Russian soldiers were sent out with wide area weapons such as rockets which are not precise enough to avoid civilian casualties. This is a bit on the long side, but a full citation is required for the full scope -

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/

Ukraine: Ukrainian fighting tactics endanger civilians

- Military bases set up in residential areas including schools and hospitals
- Attacks launched from populated civilian areas
- Such violations in no way justify Russia’s indiscriminate attacks, which have killed and injured countless civilians

' Ukrainian forces have put civilians in harm’s way by establishing bases and operating weapons systems in populated residential areas, including in schools and hospitals, as they repelled the Russian invasion that began in February, Amnesty International said today.

Such tactics violate international humanitarian law and endanger civilians, as they turn civilian objects into military targets. The ensuing Russian strikes in populated areas have killed civilians and destroyed civilian infrastructure.

“We have documented a pattern of Ukrainian forces putting civilians at risk and violating the laws of war when they operate in populated areas,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General.

“Being in a defensive position does not exempt the Ukrainian military from respecting international humanitarian law.”

Not every Russian attack documented by Amnesty International followed this pattern, however. In certain other locations in which Amnesty International concluded that Russia had committed war crimes, including in some areas of the city of Kharkiv, the organization did not find evidence of Ukrainian forces located in the civilian areas unlawfully targeted by the Russian military.

Between April and July, Amnesty International researchers spent several weeks investigating Russian strikes in the Kharkiv, Donbas and Mykolaiv regions. The organization inspected strike sites; interviewed survivors, witnesses and relatives of victims of attacks; and carried out remote-sensing and weapons analysis.

Throughout these investigations, researchers found evidence of Ukrainian forces launching strikes from within populated residential areas as well as basing themselves in civilian buildings in 19 towns and villages in the regions. The organization’s Crisis Evidence Lab has analyzed satellite imagery to further corroborate some of these incidents.

Most residential areas where soldiers located themselves were kilometres away from front lines. Viable alternatives were available that would not endanger civilians – such as military bases or densely wooded areas nearby, or other structures further away from residential areas. In the cases it documented, Amnesty International is not aware that the Ukrainian military who located themselves in civilian structures in residential areas asked or assisted civilians to evacuate nearby buildings – a failure to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians.

Launching strikes from populated civilian areas

Survivors and witnesses of Russian strikes in the Donbas, Kharkiv and Mykolaiv regions told Amnesty International researchers that the Ukrainian military had been operating near their homes around the time of the strikes, exposing the areas to retaliatory fire from Russian forces. Amnesty International researchers witnessed such conduct in numerous locations.

International humanitarian law requires all parties to a conflict to avoid locating, to the maximum extent feasible, military objectives within or near densely populated areas. Other obligations to protect civilians from the effects of attacks include removing civilians from the vicinity of military objectives and giving effective warning of attacks that may affect the civilian population.

The mother of a 50-year-old man killed in a rocket attack on 10 June in a village south of Mykolaiv told Amnesty International: “The military were staying in a house next to our home and my son often took food to the soldiers. I begged him several times to stay away from there because I was afraid for his safety. That afternoon, when the strike happened, my son was in the courtyard of our home and I was in the house. He was killed on the spot. His body was ripped to shreds. Our home was partially destroyed.” Amnesty International researchers found military equipment and uniforms at the house next door.

Mykola, who lives in a tower block in a neighbourhood of Lysychansk (Donbas) that was repeatedly struck by Russian attacks which killed at least one older man, told Amnesty International: “I don’t understand why our military is firing from the cities and not from the field.” Another resident, a 50-year-old man, said: “There is definitely military activity in the neighbourhood. When there is outgoing fire, we hear incoming fire afterwards.” Amnesty International researchers witnessed soldiers using a residential building some 20 metres from the entrance of the underground shelter used by the residents where the older man was killed.

In one town in Donbas on 6 May, Russian forces used widely banned and inherently indiscriminate cluster munitions over a neighbourhood of mostly single or two-storey homes where Ukrainian forces were operating artillery. Shrapnel damaged the walls of the house where Anna, 70, lives with her son and 95-year-old mother.

Anna said: “Shrapnel flew through the doors. I was inside. The Ukrainian artillery was near my field… The soldiers were behind the field, behind the house… I saw them coming in and out… since the war started… My mother is… paralyzed, so I couldn’t flee.”

In early July, a farm worker was injured when Russian forces struck an agricultural warehouse in the Mykolaiv area. Hours after the strike, Amnesty International researchers witnessed the presence of Ukrainian military personnel and vehicles in the grain storage area, and witnesses confirmed that the military had been using the warehouse, located across the road from a farm where civilians are living and working.

While Amnesty International researchers were examining damage to residential and adjacent public buildings in Kharkiv and in villages in Donbas and east of Mykolaiv, they heard outgoing fire from Ukrainian military positions nearby.

In Bakhmut, several residents told Amnesty International that the Ukrainian military had been using a building barely 20 metres across the street from a residential high-rise building. On 18 May, a Russian missile struck the front of the building, partly destroying five apartments and damaging nearby buildings. Kateryna, a resident who survived the strike, said: “I didn’t understand what happened. [There were] broken windows and a lot of dust in my home… I stayed here because my mother didn’t want to leave. She has health problems.”

Three residents told Amnesty International that before the strike, Ukrainian forces had been using a building across the street from the bombed building, and that two military trucks were parked in front of another house that was damaged when the missile hit. Amnesty International researchers found signs of military presence in and outside the building, including sandbags and black plastic sheeting covering the windows, as well as new US-made trauma first aid equipment.

“We have no say in what the military does, but we pay the price,” a resident whose home was also damaged in the strike told Amnesty International.

Military bases in hospitals

Amnesty International researchers witnessed Ukrainian forces using hospitals as de facto military bases in five locations. In two towns, dozens of soldiers were resting, milling about, and eating meals in hospitals. In another town, soldiers were firing from near the hospital.

A Russian air strike on 28 April injured two employees at a medical laboratory in a suburb of Kharkiv after Ukrainian forces had set up a base in the compound.

Using hospitals for military purposes is a clear violation of international humanitarian law.

Military bases in schools

The Ukrainian military has routinely set up bases in schools in towns and villages in Donbas and in the Mykolaiv area. Schools have been temporarily closed to students since the conflict  began, but in most cases the buildings were located close to populated civilian neighbourhoods

At 22 out of 29 schools visited, Amnesty International researchers either found soldiers using the premises or found evidence of current or prior military activity – including the presence of military fatigues, discarded munitions, army ration packets and military vehicles.

Russian forces struck many of the schools used by Ukrainian forces. In at least three towns, after Russian bombardment of the schools, Ukrainian soldiers moved to other schools nearby, putting the surrounding neighbourhoods at risk of similar attacks.

In a town east of Odesa, Amnesty International witnessed a broad pattern of Ukrainian soldiers using civilian areas for lodging and as staging areas, including basing armoured vehicles under trees in purely residential neighbourhoods, and using two schools located in densely populated residential areas. Russian strikes near the schools killed and injured several civilians between April and late June – including a child and an older woman killed in a rocket attack on their home on 28 June.

In Bakhmut, Ukrainian forces were using a university building as a base when a Russian strike hit on 21 May, reportedly killing seven soldiers. The university is adjacent to a high-rise residential building which was damaged in the strike, alongside other civilian homes roughly 50 metres away. Amnesty International researchers found the remains of a military vehicle in the courtyard of the bombed university building.

International humanitarian law does not specifically ban parties to a conflict from basing themselves in schools that are not in session. However, militaries have an obligation to avoid using schools that are near houses or apartment buildings full of civilians, putting these lives at risk, unless there is a compelling military need. If they do so, they should warn civilians and, if necessary, help them evacuate. This did not appear to have happened in the cases examined by Amnesty International.

Armed conflicts seriously hamper children’s right to education, and military use of schools can result in destruction that further deprives children of this right once the war ends. Ukraine is one of 114 countries that have endorsed the Safe Schools Declaration, an agreement to protect education amid armed conflict, which allows parties to make use of abandoned or evacuated schools only where there is no viable alternative.

Indiscriminate attacks by Russian forces

Many of the Russian strikes that Amnesty International documented in recent months were carried out with inherently indiscriminate weapons, including internationally banned cluster munitions, or with other explosive weapons with wide area effects. Others used guided weapons with varying levels of accuracy; in some cases, the weapons were precise enough to target specific objects.

The Ukrainian military’s practice of locating military objectives within populated areas does not in any way justify indiscriminate Russian attacks. All parties to a conflict must at all times distinguish between military objectives and civilian objects and take all feasible precautions, including in choice of weapons, to minimize civilian harm. Indiscriminate attacks which kill or injure civilians or damage civilian objects are war crimes.

“The Ukrainian government should immediately ensure that it locates its forces away from populated areas, or should evacuate civilians from areas where the military is operating. Militaries should never use hospitals to engage in warfare, and should only use schools or civilian homes as a last resort when there are no viable alternatives,” said Agnès Callamard.

Amnesty International contacted the Ukrainian Ministry of Defence with the findings of the research on 29 July 2022. At the time of publication, they had not yet responded. '
« Last Edit: October 22, 2022, 12:29:02 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tron

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Thank you.  Intel like this certainly clears a lot up.
From the surface Earth looks flat.  From space Earth looks round.  Now what?

Rama Set

“Such violations in no way justify Russia’s indiscriminate attacks, which have killed and injured countless civilians”

Rama Set

For anyone silly enough to have read Tom’s essay and thought he had a good point, even though Ukraine is using dangerous tactics, that still doesn’t give Russia license to invade it. Let’s remember these tactics are in response to a larger power invading their sovereign borders.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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I mean, Russian soldiers have a very credible alternative to killing civilians: they could go back to their own country, and reunite with their families.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Rama Set

I mean, Russian soldiers have a very credible alternative to killing civilians: they could go back to their own country, and reunite with their families.

Great idea. We can have an investigation in to potential war crimes on both sides afterwards! Let’s wrap it up with a neat bow and see that those who deserve justice get it.