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Offline markjo

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I mean, Russian soldiers have a very credible alternative to killing civilians: they could go back to their own country, and reunite with their families.
If only Putin could have them do that and still save face.

*edit*
I think that I may have found a minor flaw in Putin's "denazification of Ukraine" narrative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_National_Unity
https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/if-russia-serious-about-de-nazification-it-should-start-home/
« Last Edit: October 23, 2022, 05:53:32 PM by markjo »
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

#firePete

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Offline markjo

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Since Russia's denazification program is going so well, now is the time to desatanize Ukraine just for good measure.
https://censor.net/en/news/3376209/russian_security_council_declares_a_necessity_of_ukraines_desatanization
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

#firePete

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Offline Tom Bishop

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This does not look like being on the right side of history to me: The western powers are trying to maintain their narrative by prosecuting dissenters. An independent German journalist has been interviewing people in the Donbass area who supported the referendums to join Russia and published their complaints, relaying interviews and statements that Ukraine has been harassing and attacking them for the last 8 years, and that Ukraine has been engaged in a genocide against them.

This journalist is now being persecuted by her government -



https://newkontinent.org/germany-labels-journalist-criminal-and-seizes-her-bank-accounts-for-reporting-from-ukraine/

Germany Labels Journalist ‘Criminal’ And Seizes Her Bank Accounts For Reporting From Ukraine

    A German journalist living in eastern Ukraine’s Donbas region has been criminally charged by the German government for interviewing Ukrainian citizens and reporting her findings.

    Independent reporter, 28-year-old Alina Lipp, moved to the Donbas area six months ago, where she transmits first-hand information to her audience in German, Russian, and English from her  channel.

    Lipp claims she is only doing what any journalist would do — interviewing citizens and documenting what is happening around her.

    The journalist  she is “doing interviews with people in Donetsk and merely translating them into German.”

    “I am simply filming everything I see around,” Lipp added.

    She inquired rhetorically “what is it that’s illegal in that, or dangerous?”

    The controversy around Lipp began in March when one of her videos explaining the history and the context of the war went viral.

    In Lipp’s viral video, she said, “you need to understand that Russia has been asking for eight years that the Minsk agreement be upheld. Ukraine did not adhere to it, nor did they approach the Donbas region in an attempt to come to agreement.”

    “Instead, they have been bombing the outskirts of the Donbas region for eight years. They are shooting at civilians, who now also have to live in completely shot-up houses. Very many people have died here,” Lipp continued.

    In the video, Lipp alleged that the Donbas citizens who overwhelmingly  from Ukraine in 2014 had been, “thankful that Russia finally did something”.

    Lip added, “Finally, the people here have been liberated from the terror that they’ve been experiencing for the last eight years,” under continuous shelling by the Ukrainian military.

    Soon after the video went viral, Lipp’s YouTube channel was closed, her PayPal account was blocked, and the Ukrainian government  her a “terrorist”.

    Last month, the journalist received a letter from Germany’s prosecutor’s office which states that she now faces three years in prison for supporting Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

    This comes after German authorities closed down her bank account and her father’s bank account without warning.

    In a recent interview, Lipp , “The letter says that, for example, I say in my Telegram channel that the population of Donbas supports the fact that Russia has launched a special operation.”

    “I also said that for several years Ukrainians have been killing civilians in the Donbas, and that this is genocide and it turns out to be a crime for Germany, so they took 1,600 euro from my bank account and didn’t even tell me about it.” Lipp said.

    According to Lipp, the German government has declared her guilty and she will not be able to defend herself in court.

    “At the end of the letter, he says that they are not going to invite me to a hearing because this would ‘disturb the investigations,’ and that is very interesting, so they are charging me, but they do not want to listen to me,” she  in a video posted to her telegram channel.

Earlier this month a there was a demonstration in Berlin in support of Lipp:

https://globaleuronews.com/2022/10/04/free-journalism-is-not-a-crime-demonstration-in-berlin-against-persecution-of-alina-lipp/

    “Free Journalism Is not a Crime!”: Demonstration in Berlin Against Persecution of Alina Lipp

    A rally in support of German journalist Alina Lipp, who has been repeatedly persecuted for her journalistic work covering the events in Donbas, is taking place right now in Berlin. Not only Alina herself, but her family has also suffered — Alina’s mother, Petra Lipp, was also targeted. She had to leave the country, and her bank accounts were blocked.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2022, 03:16:11 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tron

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MarkJo you have a good point about the "denazification" program by Russia and using "Nazi's" to do it...   I hate that word, lets just use "nationialists"...

Ukrainian nationalists who love there country are fighting hard to defend it...  Russian "nationialists" are fighting in Ukraine to protect Russian interests and Russian speaking citizens there.

I'm not sure what else can be said until a deal between the two countries is made.

From the surface Earth looks flat.  From space Earth looks round.  Now what?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Nothing needs to be said. The orcs need to stop invading sovereign countries. Then we can talk about how to best resolve the war crimes they've committed.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline Tron

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Pete I hear you - Some of my response to Tom's post below addresses your point.

The problem with the German Journalist's video's as outlined in the German legal notice, is that she seems to have broken away from "Journalistic" neutrality and has started to pick sides.

Now, I suppose under free speech a person is allowed to go into another war-torn country and report on what they see is happening there. 

Is she allowed to hold an opinion after spending six month's in Donbas?  I suppose.

But I think shen she speaks of Genocide, she needs to remember that the current Ukrainian government is fighting for terrority lost from sepratists and russians following the Maiden Revolution...  The current Ukrainian government might actually be fighting for people in Eastern Ukraine who don't want to leave Ukraine and declare themselves another state.  Not to mention violations to international law and of sovereign boundaries!  But if humanitarian issues are occuring underneath this all then that must be considered.

Lastly, I presume she understands the western narrative?  If she does, then I see no way to prosecute her.  She looked at both sides and reported.
From the surface Earth looks flat.  From space Earth looks round.  Now what?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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We have seen no details of Alina Lipp's lawsuit. All we have is her own allegations that she's been sued, and a good number of personal blogs that echo it without evidence. This is four months after it allegedly happened - doesn't it strike you as strange that there is no reliable reporting on the matter?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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It's not just an allegation. The documents and details of the court action are available and are looked at here at 1:17. It contains contact information of the chief prosecutor, details of the offenses, etc:

« Last Edit: October 28, 2022, 07:37:25 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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It's great that there is a YouTube video of someone looking at a printed piece of paper, I'm sure; but, much like with the rest of your tendency of favouring random people talking shit on the Internet when it suits you, it just doesn't even begin a meritorious conversation on the subject.
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Offline Rama Set

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Tom, why don’t you find the actual criminal complaint from their courts website?
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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It's not fake. There is already evidence here that it's real; her claim of being persecuted and the government documents. You denialists could have also just done some basic research to see that some media outlets are covering it, and that major outlets have reached out to the German prosecutor's office.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-Online

"t-online.de is a German news portal, owned and published by digital multi-channel media company Ströer. It reaches over 179 million visits per month[1] coming from 29 million unique visitors.[2]"

https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/ausland/id_92326694/putins-deutsches-sprachrohr-alina-lipp-behoerden-ermitteln-wegen-kriegspropaganda-.html

"According to information from t-online , there have been several criminal charges against Alina Lipp since February. The Lüneburg public prosecutor's office then took up the investigation , as a spokeswoman for t-online confirmed. A few days ago, the public prosecutor's office in Göttingen took over the case - the central office for hate crime on the Internet is located there. The investigation has not yet been completed.

According to the public prosecutor's office, Alina Lipp constantly shows her solidarity with Russia's war against Ukraine . It is about a large number of contributions that she regularly posts on social networks. The investigators apparently name two as examples: On February 24, she happily wrote on Telegram: "The denazification has begun," and on March 12, she spoke in a video about the Russian troops liberating regions affected by "genocide."

The public prosecutor's office apparently considers the statements suitable to heat up the climate in Germany and to dissolve social cohesion due to at least distorted, partly untruthful representations. Aline Lipp has 150,000 subscribers to the Telegram messenger service, and her posts are also shared in "lateral thinker" circles. In her opinion pieces and her impressions of the life of the people in Donbass, she also mixed foreign articles with untruths, some of which she deleted again after they were discovered. For example, she spread the fictitious story that a young Russian man had been killed by Ukrainian refugees.

Lipp had already indicated a few days ago that there could be investigations against her. She had reported outraged that the German authorities had simply debited money from her without informing her. The public prosecutor's office had told t-online that Lipp had of course been informed - via her registration address in Lüneburg.

The DKV-Bank booked just over 1,600 euros from its German account to another account, where it is kept. The public prosecutor confirms that there was a corresponding order. The money was therefore confiscated to secure it for possible later confiscation. Money can be confiscated if obtained through a criminal offense."

Here is another article:

https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/parteien/id_100035872/putins-deutsche-kriegerin-alina-lipp-erhaelt-unterstuetzung-von-afd-verein.html

'The public prosecutor's office in Goettingen told t-online that Lipp had "continuously expressed her solidarity with Russia's war of aggression". Certain statements are no longer covered by the freedom of expression, but "suitable for inciting the psychological climate within the population of Germany and because of distorted, sometimes untruthful representations (...) to dissolve social cohesion."'
« Last Edit: October 29, 2022, 08:17:35 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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It's not fake.
Nobody says it is (but it's interesting you felt the need to highlight this). You just need to adequately document it.

Not that she's being investigated. Not that she's a known Russian shill who repeatedly lied about the situation in Ukraine (but thanks for highlighting that, always good to know how independent your "independent journalists" are). Not that a small sum of illegal earnings was seized. But, specifically, what she's being sued for (if she is), and how the lawsuit is going (it's supposedly been 4 months!), using primary sources.

We can't discuss random allegations of bloggers that you mistook for journalists. We'd be here forever.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2022, 08:36:22 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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It was clear from the very first video from the reporter that it had validity. She is an independent journalist who was presenting government documents and a series of events. Typically this is enough for the foundation of a claim. Her claim had evidence behind it. The suggestion of it being false had no evidence. Yet this denialist narrative was doubled down upon with zero evidence, while simultaneously denying the evidence that existed.

Usually when there is evidence for something, that evidence stands until something contradicts it. In the case of the anti-Russia posters here it appears that there is a severe bias, with frequent emotional outbursts in this thread about "orcs" and a hate for Russia. This is not an impartial judge.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2022, 09:13:06 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Tom, things that are "clear" to you are the gold standard of untrustworthy propaganda around here. In fact, you'd do your narrative a huge service if you just didn't sabotage it by saying "it seems to me like X", or "it is clear that Y".

You're gonna have to present some evidence before your allegations can be meaningfully discussed. It's not yet a matter of whether what you're saying is true or false - you haven't gotten far enough for anyone to make that call. So far, you gave us 2 reputable articles which explain that she might be a criminal, that she regularly peddles untruths, and that she's on Russia's payroll. No evidence of what she's being sued for, or how the lawsuit is going. I wonder why that might be.

So, present your evidence, or move on to the next troll post.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2022, 08:13:49 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Quote from: Pete Svarrior
No evidence of what she's being sued for

This was given and explained in the last link I gave:

https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/parteien/id_100035872/putins-deutsche-kriegerin-alina-lipp-erhaelt-unterstuetzung-von-afd-verein.html

    'The public prosecutor's office in Goettingen told t-online that Lipp had "continuously expressed her solidarity with Russia's war of aggression". Certain statements are no longer covered by the freedom of expression, but "suitable for inciting the psychological climate within the population of Germany and because of distorted, sometimes untruthful representations (...) to dissolve social cohesion."'

She is being prosecuted for inciting the psychological climate within the population of Germany. This statement from the prosecutor agrees with the governement document that the Anna Lipp provided. According to Google Translate the last paragraph of the second page says:

    "Your statements are likely to incite the psychological climate within the population of the Federal Republic of Germany, to bring about a dissent within society due to at least distorted and sometimes untruthful representations and to dissolve social cohesion, to see doubts about the functionality of public opinion-forming and the truthfulness of media reporting within the Federal Republic of Germany and thereby to shake the trust in the legal certainty and the trustworthiness of the democratic system in the country as a whole, which she and she also believes in at least accept it with approval, especially since your postings are aimed - specifically - at a German audience"

Her Telegram posts risk shaking apart the trust in the institution and the trust in the democratic system as a whole. Those must be some posts.

Two examples are cited by the prosecutors, where she spoke of Donbass regions being affected by genocide and where she wrote "denazification has begun":

https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/ausland/id_92326694/putins-deutsches-sprachrohr-alina-lipp-behoerden-ermitteln-wegen-kriegspropaganda-.html

    According to the public prosecutor's office, Alina Lipp constantly shows her solidarity with Russia's war against Ukraine . It is about a large number of contributions that she regularly posts on social networks. The investigators apparently name two as examples: On February 24, she happily wrote on Telegram: "The denazification has begun," and on March 12, she spoke in a video about the Russian troops liberating regions affected by "genocide."

These examples are also cited in the document. Apparently if you are a German journalist living in Donbass and you publish an editorial siding with the people there, or if you condone the invasion, repeat the claim of Nazism, and say that there was genocide in Donbass, it is deserving of criminal prosecution by the German government. You are not allowed to have an opinion which sides with the opposition.

Quote from: Pete Svarrior
she's on Russia's payroll.

It does not say that anywhere.

Quote from: Pete Svarrior
how the lawsuit is going

If you are truly interested in this then you should probably subscribe to her Telegram channel for the latest updates. The legal system can be quite slow, and she will likely provide updates there as she sees fit.

From a t-online.de article from 08/10/2022 (October 8th, 2022 - Europe uses DD/MM/YYYY) we read that a lawyer in Berlin named Michel Adam has taken up her case, and t-online reached out to him for comment. He did not indicate that there has yet been a court appearance, but affirmed that he was representing Alina Lipp and provided explanation for why he was representing her:

https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/parteien/id_100035872/putins-deutsche-kriegerin-alina-lipp-erhaelt-unterstuetzung-von-afd-verein.html

    Lipp wrote on Telegram on June 24 that she had been contacted by the VDAR and that a lawyer would represent her interests in Germany – at no cost to her.

    The club confirmed on Telegram: "Our club lawyer has already taken on a first mandate." The lawyer is representing Lipp because "an investigation into pro-Russian expressions of opinion in connection with the Ukraine conflict is ongoing." "Pro-Russian" is only part of the truth. First of all, pro-Russian statements are not punishable. Lipp is accused of condoning a crime.

    The Berlin lawyer Michael Adam represents her. Adam is second deputy chairman of the association, one of two vice-chairmen of the "Christians in the AfD". Most recently, he failed five times in the Marzahn-Hellersdorf district as a candidate for a vacant city council post. In a presentation by the Association for Russian-Germans, Adam said he wanted "all those who suffer from discrimination and exclusion to have their rights in Germany."

    When asked by t-online, he explained that Lipp was not the only client. It is not yet foreseeable whether the association will represent more people who are under investigation or people who feel discriminated against because of their origin or language or who may have become victims of crimes as a result. From the association's point of view, "bullying, threats, harassment and even physical violence against Russian-born or Russian-speaking people are now the order of the day". The Russian embassy had also set up an SOS address for such cases, but has stopped reporting mostly unproven and banal cases since April 11.

    Adam says the association helps those affected if "in individual cases the statutory goals of the association are affected". Legal fees would be settled with the persons represented. But that doesn't mean that they have to pay for it: the association also pays all or part of the costs, the board decides on this. As with Lipp, whose costs are borne by the AfD association. The association does not provide any information about where the funds for this come from.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2022, 11:45:45 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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This is another piece of evidence that Germany is engaged in political prosecution and is going after people like Alina Lipp for these kind of offenses.

https://www.dw.com/en/german-police-probe-displays-of-support-for-russian-invasion-of-ukraine/a-61502540

    Police in several states across Germany have opened investigations into public displays of support for the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the RND newspaper group reported on Monday.

    More than 140 investigations have been launched, most looking into the use of the "Z" symbol that has been seen in several protests in Germany alongside Russian flags.

    The symbol has been associated with Russia's invasion after many of the vehicles that Russian forces drove into Ukraine had the letter painted on their side.

    Several German states have classified the use of the symbol as unlawful support for the invasion.

    "The public display of this symbol in connection with the Russian invasion will trigger an investigation when its use in the context means endorsement or support for Russia's war of aggression," a spokesperson for the Interior Ministry of the state of Magdeburg said.

    ...

    In the southern state of Bavaria, the Justice Ministry did not make public the number of cases, but the state's Justice Minister Georg Eisenreich said that Bavaria's public prosecutors were taking resolute action against people who endorse the illegal war.

    Eisenreich defended the freedom of opinion as protected in the German constitution.

    "Everyone in Germany may express their opinion. But freedom of expression ends where a criminal offense begins," he said, adding: "We won't accept the condoning of crimes against international law."

You are not allowed to have an opinion that sides with Russia in regards to Ukraine. If you side with the opposing narrative it's a "criminal offense".
« Last Edit: October 30, 2022, 12:16:36 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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I’m pretty sure you can’t walk around waving a flag with a swastica on it in Germany. It’s not really known as a bastion of free speech. She’s an apparent font of Russian propaganda. I don’t see what the issue is. Germany is cancelling her. Whatevs, she’s just some Russian blogger of no real import.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Tom, that's a lot of REEEEEing and attempting to change the subject, but we asked for evidence regarding her lawsuit. If crying about "political prosecution" (more accurately, investigations which will likely lead to nothing) is your best approach, it's probably time to take the L.

Plenty of people, including yourself, are under investigation for peddling Russian propaganda, especially if, like Lipp, you've accepted money from Russia (thanks for documenting that, by the way). Doesn't mean you're going to jail anytime soon.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2022, 09:38:21 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline J-Man

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Kiev..Lights out ! Was Poland an attempt by the midg man to bring NATO into fight since the place is dark and getting darker?

Probably shoulda negotiated?  G20 votes for Russia to rebuild Zel's backyard. Putin is going to loose all finances held by NATO, so....

I guess he takes Ukraine and ALL its asset.
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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I guess he takes Ukraine and ALL its asset.
Yes, that's been going swimmingly so far.
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