Ghost of V

Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #240 on: June 16, 2014, 08:43:33 PM »
Yes, but they're not funding the whole project... Yet.

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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #241 on: June 16, 2014, 09:14:23 PM »
Yes, but they're not funding the whole project... Yet.

Way to move the goalposts.

Ghost of V

Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #242 on: June 16, 2014, 10:49:34 PM »
I'm pretty sure he was asking why it isn't funded and being implemented now if it is such a good idea. I gave a reason. You initially moved the goal post when you misunderstood what we were talking about.

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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #243 on: June 16, 2014, 10:57:11 PM »
I'm pretty sure [...] when you misunderstood what we were talking about.
You don't even know for sure what he was asking. In the broadest terms, they have received federal funding.

Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #244 on: June 16, 2014, 11:17:43 PM »
I really want to donate to this, but can anyone tell me why they need public funding in the first place?
I was thinking of donating, but then I thought, why wouldn't the state fund this?

They don't fund it because its quite frankly a stupid idea that will not take off. The reasons for this have been explained thoroughly in this thread.

You should spend your money on Nuclear Freakin Roadways instead.
False. The Federal Highway Administration funded two prototypes.

http://www.solarroadways.com/faq.shtml#faqTesting


Oh my. I'm admittedly skeptical about past science projects because they seemingly never come to fruition, but this has got to be the coolest thing I've ever seen. I hope they go far.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #245 on: June 21, 2014, 12:57:46 AM »
They won't go far, because the project is about as feasible as lightsabers. Yes, it's really damn cool, and really damn impossible.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #246 on: June 21, 2014, 01:14:46 AM »
They won't go far, because the project is about as feasible as lightsabers. Yes, it's really damn cool, and really damn impossible.


Its impossible to pave a road with solar panels?
Or its impossible that America will pay to do it?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #247 on: June 21, 2014, 01:35:47 AM »
PP thinks he knows everything.

Even if it were impractical it's definitely not impossible.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #248 on: June 21, 2014, 01:53:12 AM »
PP thinks he knows everything.
Nah, but I know basic electronic and electrical engineering, since it's vaguely related to my field of study. And precisely because I don't know everything, I refer you to the judgement of those much more proficient in these fields than myself.

Even if it were impractical it's definitely not impossible.
No, the claims they're making are impossible. They go against the laws of physics.

Its impossible to pave a road with solar panels?
It's possible (although idiotic) to pave a road with solar panels. It might not be possible to do so without compromising the road's key requirements (durability, high friction in adverse weather conditions, etc.). It is impossible for this road to also power its own LED line markings, produce a return on investment, heat the road it constitutes and also become a super military surveillance drone comparable to NASA's description of the Curiosity rover.

The fact that it's financially impractical (which rooster was kind enough to remind us of), is just the cherry on top of the cake.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 02:08:17 AM by pizaaplanet »
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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #249 on: June 21, 2014, 02:16:11 AM »
PP thinks he knows everything.
Nah, but I know basic electronic and electrical engineering, since it's vaguely related to my field of study. And precisely because I don't know everything, I refer you to the judgement of those much more proficient in these fields than myself.

Right, you provided a Thunderf00t link which Solar Roadways has already made a rebuttal to, at least partially since I didn't watch his whole video I don't know. I'm pretty sure if it were impossible it would not have gotten as far as it has.

Offline Blanko

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #250 on: June 21, 2014, 02:25:41 AM »
But it's yet to be implemented or tested anywhere. How is that "far" at all?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #251 on: June 21, 2014, 02:27:16 AM »
Right, you provided a Thunderf00t link which Solar Roadways has already made a rebuttal to
A response is not a rebuttal. They basically say "nuh uh" multiple times and provide unverified claims (and intentionally misinterpreted some accusations - for example, they took asphalt with no aggregate and said "see, it's soft! Roads are rubbish!" - why would they need to do that if they had actual answers to the issue?). I also posted EEVblog's video which provides some more thorough numbers.

I'm pretty sure if it were impossible it would not have gotten as far as it has.
We don't know how far it's gotten. They say they can heat the roads, they have yet to show it. And their FAQ very openly admits that:

Quote
Won't your textured surface make a lot of noise at high speeds?

Short answer: we don't know. The world's only prototype is a mere 36-feet long and in a place where we can't build up speed.

They don't even know how their road will behave in, you know, simple road conditions. They don't know how it'll behave with fast, heavy cars on them. They claim they tested things, but they provide neither the numbers nor empirical evidence to substantiate that.

Other things they didn't test:

Quote
How are you going to handle skid marks from tires? Won't that block your sunlight?

We weren't able to officially test for that during our Phase II funding from the FHWA as it wasn't in the budget.

Quote
Will the panels become hotter than asphalt roads? Will they burn us to walk in them in summer?

We haven't tested them (measured the heat) side by side
(and before you accuse me of quote-mining, the answer that follows is a non-answer.)

Quote
What is the maximum heat that the panels can endure?

The ICs are industrial grade, so for instance, the microprocessors can go up to 257 degrees Fahrenheit. We haven't had the funding yet to test our panels in an environmental chamber, but we are anxious to do so.

What they have could be OK-ish for an overpriced parking lot (that will never actually pay for itself, and will not actually provide you with significant amounts of electricity, but hey, it's flashy, it's shiny, big businesses will like it). As far as anything else goes, reality gets in the way. Their actual claims are simply impossible with modern-day technology and materials.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 02:34:56 AM by pizaaplanet »
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Offline markjo

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #252 on: June 21, 2014, 03:19:23 AM »
Quote
Will the panels become hotter than asphalt roads? Will they burn us to walk in them in summer?

We haven't tested them (measured the heat) side by side
They have a test patch outside, don't they?  How expensive is a thermometer?  Couldn't they even just feel how hot the glass is compared to asphalt with their hands?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #253 on: June 21, 2014, 03:38:48 AM »
No, no, they need funding, you see. Ka-ching!
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #254 on: June 21, 2014, 04:13:00 AM »
Quote
Will the panels become hotter than asphalt roads? Will they burn us to walk in them in summer?

We haven't tested them (measured the heat) side by side
They have a test patch outside, don't they?  How expensive is a thermometer?  Couldn't they even just feel how hot the glass is compared to asphalt with their hands?
Well, they might live in a colder region (I think Ohio) in which case they can't test how hot it is in hotter climates unless someone wants to give them money to go to Florida and make a parking lot. You do know that sacrificing your livelihood and any other job for the sake of a huge invention is a big investment, right?

"Scott is an electrical engineer (MSEE) with over 20 years of industry experience. This includes serving as the Director of Research and Development at a manufacturing facility in Ohio (developing their line of products for over 12 years)" So he's not completely out of his depth.

We do know exactly how far they've gotten. They've been through two prototype phases (with the Federal Highway Administration) where they tested the friction and durability of the glass and have a parking lot, and they're completely honest with the things they haven't been able to test yet.

And for example, they totally killed Thunderf00t's LED argument. They claim that they passed the Federal Highway's tests for friction and plausible surface- have you seen the Federal Highway come out and say that it's false? Obviously, they've passed, just because they haven't provided the exact formula for their hexagonal patterned glass doesn't mean it's impossible. They tested for fucking tanks, they know the weight they can handle.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #255 on: June 21, 2014, 04:35:04 AM »
Its impossible to pave a road with solar panels?
It's possible (although idiotic) to pave a road with solar panels. It might not be possible to do so without compromising the road's key requirements (durability, high friction in adverse weather conditions, etc.). It is impossible for this road to also power its own LED line markings, produce a return on investment, heat the road it constitutes and also become a super military surveillance drone comparable to NASA's description of the Curiosity rover.

The fact that it's financially impractical (which rooster was kind enough to remind us of), is just the cherry on top of the cake.
Why would it be impossible for all that at once?  Ok, the last part is just silly but the rest of it is possible.
LEDs aren't exactly high powered lights. 
The Return on Investment will be tough.  Without the math on how much each panel will cost during production we can't even begin to calculate a ROI. 

So let's take the 280 Watt Solar Panel from Home Dept.  $400/panel.  39.1"x77"
Let's pave that over 1 mile of road, 2 lanes.
Lanes vary between 9-12 feet in rural US for local lanes.  So that's what we'll do.  Let's use 10ft (for ease of math)
But I'm not stupid so I'm converting everything to metric.

1 mile = 1609.34 meters
Each lane is 3.048 meters wide.
Each Panel is 0.99314 meters x 1.9558 meters.
So the total area needing to be covered is 6.096*1609.34 = 9,810.53664 m2
Each panel has an area of 1.942383212 m2

So dividing
9,810.53664/1.942383212
Total Panels needed: 5,051
At $400/panel it'll cost $2,020,400.  Assuming we buy the panels straight from Home Dept.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Grape-Solar-280-Watt-Polcrystalline-Solar-Panel-GS-P-280-Fab1/202959966?N=5yc1vZbm31

So how long would it take to get a return on investment?
Let's assume (impossibly) that no cars ever drove on it.  This will give us a lower limit on the minimum time it would take for a ROI.
Let's take New York since I'm more familiar with the state.
Peak sun averages about 4 hours.  But let's assume 2 because we have panels flat on the ground instead of at an angle.

5,051 at 280watts = 1,414,280 watts. 
1,414,280 watts*2 hours /1000 = 2,828.56 KWH

At the current rate of .08/kwh the panels would generate $226.2848 worth of energy a day.  (ignoring the LEDs)

So the flat cost of $2,020,400/mile and a return of $226/day, it would take roughly 24.5 years to break even.

But what if we use cheaper panels?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/181395099800?lpid=82
50x250w panels.
Or $156/panel.
Dimensions are a little different.
0.9906x1.64084 = 1.625416104 m2
6,036 Panels.  At $156 it'll cost $941,616.  Less than half of the other panels.
Total power generated per day: 3,018 KWH
or $241.44/day.
ROI: 10.6 years.

Wow that was a lot of typing. (weird that the cheaper, smaller panels produced more energy.  But whatever.)

Anyway, to calculate the same cost of the materials for an asphalt road, let's use this document:
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/esc/oe/cost_index/historical_reports/PI_2012_qtr4.pdf

So $94.41/ton.

Asphalt concrete is about 2.243 grams per cubic centimeter.
(I'm probably going to screw something up with the math so please point out my mistakes)
Convert to meters.
0.000001 meters3
.002243 kg.

Density = 2,243kg/m3



Assuming 0.0889m thickness a 1 mile road would be
0.0889*1609.34 = 143.070326 m3

So Mass = 2243*143.070326= 320,906.741218 Kg
kg to ton conversion:
321 metric tons.
Cost: $30,305.61
Or 4 months worth of pure solar roadway energy.



TL:DR
Material Cost of Solar Panels for 1 mile 2 lane highway: $941,616
Time for ROI: 10.6 Years.
Material Cost of Asphalt Concrete: $30,305.61
Time for ROI: ?? (the roads produce nothing so their investment is all about having happy citizens and businesses but probably within 6 months if not sooner)


There!
The Math for all to see!
Solar roads are incredibly expensive.

3 mile island cost $1.91 Billion (adjusted for inflation) to build.
It generates 6,645,000,000 KWh /year.
At .08/kwh = 531,600,000 it's ROI  is roughly 2 years.

Heating the road is easy and they've shown it working.  It takes more energy than the panels will produce in the winter, but it can be done.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Offline Blanko

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #256 on: June 21, 2014, 12:00:32 PM »
What I don't understand about all this is, if we're going to produce a fuckton of solar panels, why would we put them on roads of all places?

Do people actually want to live in Tron?

Rama Set

Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #257 on: June 21, 2014, 12:11:28 PM »
Yes. Yes I do.

Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #258 on: June 21, 2014, 12:52:03 PM »
PP thinks he knows everything.
Nah, but I know basic electronic and electrical engineering, since it's vaguely related to my field of study. And precisely because I don't know everything, I refer you to the judgement of those much more proficient in these fields than myself.

Right, you provided a Thunderf00t link which Solar Roadways has already made a rebuttal to,

Just "posting a rebuttal" doesn't counter all the claims against an argument. Their rebuttal was prettty weak and mostly consisted of speculation about the amazing thing they haven't built yet.

Eg:

Quote
What will an earthquake do to a Solar Roadway?

Basically, any such force that could destroy an asphalt or concrete road would have a similar result with a Solar Roadway. Power will not be lost however: only the damaged panels will stop producing.

They somehow magically know that their power distribution system is impervious to earthquakes. This alone is an innovation given the damage caused to existing power networks during such a catastrophe.

I'm pretty sure if it were impossible it would not have gotten as far as it has.

Yeah you might hope so.

The difference between impossible and improbable is so slender one could barely fit a cigarette paper between them.

It is possible to cover the (USA) country's roads in solar panels. As a consequence the country will be bankrupt. As a consequence the nations roads will be much worse (for driving on).

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #259 on: June 21, 2014, 02:51:02 PM »
Why would it be impossible for all that at once?
Because of physics. You can't heat up the solar panel's area sufficiently to melt the snow using just the solar panel. I'm ignoring the fact that it would be under the snow and clouds for the time being. The efficiency of solar panels is very optimistically quoted at 15%. Converting this back to heat is quite efficient, let's say 100% for convenience. So we get 15% of the sun's energy converted back into heat. Cool.

Now, how much heat does snow already absorb?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albedo#Snow

Between 10% and 60% depending on exact conditions. And guess what, usually that doesn't melt the ice. 15% won't do it either. You physically need more energy than you can produce with those panels.

LEDs aren't exactly high powered lights.
Yeah, EEVblog's somewhat generous approximations suggest they would only use 24% of the panels' power, but he assumed a single straight line in the middle, so let's say 20-30% and call it that. I'm happy to admit that 70-80% of the energy can still be used for other stuff (no, not melting the snow, fuck off.), but that's bugger all. Again, going with EEVblog's calculations, we're looking at several hundred Watt-hours per square metre - and you can only use that during the day! For some reason the Solar Roadways people assume that you can magically store energy in the grid - that's just not how it works. You use it or you lose it.

But I'm not stupid so I'm converting everything to metric.
Thank you.

So the total area needing to be covered is 6.096*1609.34 = 9,810.53664 m2
Each panel has an area of 1.942383212 m2

So dividing
9,810.53664/1.942383212
Total Panels needed: 5,051
You cannot realistically assume you're covering the entire road with solar panels. You need something there to actually support the cars, and the space for the LEDs, and the electronics.

Peak sun averages about 4 hours.  But let's assume 2 because we have panels flat on the ground instead of at an angle.
You also assume that nothing on that strech of road is currently in shade of any sort. Not objecting to it, just pointing it out.

5,051 at 280watts = 1,414,280 watts.
Nnnnnnope. You will never get STC out of a solar panel. Make that 250W and you're still being generous. But okay, I'm liking where you're going, so let's go on with that number. Let's just keep in mind that anything you say isn't just the minimum - it's less than that.

So the flat cost of $2,020,400/mile and a return of $226/day, it would take roughly 24.5 years to break even.
You assume that the only cost incurred is the solar panel. The return will be lower, and the cost will be higher, but 24.5 years is greater than their 20 years anyway.

But what if we use cheaper panels?[...]
ROI: 10.6 years.
Again, you assume your only cost is the solar panel. It's not. They are putting A LOT of stuff in there. Also, the power losses on this thing would be ridiculous. Watch EEVblog's video, he goes over them rather nicely. You about tripled the actual power you'd get in both scenarios, even though you tried to be realistic.

Heating the road is easy and they've shown it working.
Have they? Could I see it?

It takes more energy than the panels will produce in the winter, but it can be done.
Whoah, whoah, moving-the-goalposts alert. Yes, I'm not denying that it's possible to heat stuff with electricity. I'm doing it in my room right now. Hilariously enough, that's easier to do with asphalt roads since they're better heat conductors. The problem with that is that it'd be EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE - pushing it off to the side of the road is simply more practical.

And for example, they totally killed Thunderf00t's LED argument.
No, they haven't. They gave a non-answer. They showed several examples of LEDs that you look at at very convenient angles (close to 0 degrees - note that LEDs are rather shitty at the angles you'd see them on if they were part of a road:


)

and in the shade (as is the case with traffic lights - ever wondered what those little roofs above the lights are? Yep. They're exactly what Solar Roadways don't have.)



Also, a single traffic light has a very dense LED set-up. If you want to go with that, well, you no longer have enough power generated from the roadways.

The fact that they have to resort to these blatantly dishonest responses doesn't do them favours among those who at least understand the basics. Seriously, grab an LED and try looking at it at different angles. You will very quickly understand what the problem here is.

They tested for fucking tanks, they know the weight they can handle.
No, they fucking haven't. They posted an anecdote about how tanks will be totally fine. You need to read what they actually say before making dumb claims.

Quote
Can your Solar Roadways handle Army tanks?

Our current M1A2 Abrams tank weighs about 68 tons, or 136,000 pounds. That's a little over half of what our Solar Road Panels have passed load testing for.

When I was in the Marines, I was temporarily assigned to a supply company in Japan. I issued tank tracks with rubber "feet" which allowed the tanks to drive down the highways without causing significant damage to the asphalt. The Solar Roadways will have no problem handling a convoy of tanks!
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 03:06:31 PM by pizaaplanet »
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