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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Democracy Is Overrated
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2021, 12:01:48 AM »
I think we can safely assume we all know what was meant by the word "test" and ignore xasop's transparent troll.

That said, if the test was well defined, the only way to pervert it would be to redefine it, which the remaining voters would hopefully have a say on. This isn't really more or less vulnerable to warping than current democratic systems.
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Offline Pongo

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Re: Democracy Is Overrated
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2021, 02:34:50 AM »
Wow, what a hot take everyone.

“No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time…”

-Churchill 1947

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Democracy Is Overrated
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2021, 05:40:17 AM »
Q4. Which candidate has the stance that boys should be spanked as punishment?

*Candidate answered 12 years ago in a town hall meeting*
I'm not talking about some trivia quiz which people would have to study extensively for.
Before an election each party publishes a manifesto which no-one reads. But the key points from them could be made available.
And sure, Thork is right in that parties lie in them. So people would have to take that in to account when they choose to vote.
But I don't think it's unreasonable to think that people should be encouraged to have some idea of what they're voting for over and above "he's got an honest face" or "I think his speeches are funny"
And who says it won't turn into a trivia quiz?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Democracy Is Overrated
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2021, 07:10:49 AM »
And who says it won't turn into a trivia quiz?
Obviously it would have to all be highly regulated. There’s clearly a lot of scope for corruption here, but the question shouldn’t be whether it’s perfect but whether it’s better than the current system where people can vote for someone because they’re funny or because they always vote for that party without a clue what any of the parties actually stand for or are promising to do. Isn’t some attempt at making sure people are engaged worth a try?
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Democracy Is Overrated
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2021, 07:26:37 AM »
Who are you to say that The People™️ don't want to be ruled by people with funny faces? Why should your subjective reasons to vote for someone trump others' reasons?
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Online xasop

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Re: Democracy Is Overrated
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2021, 07:48:29 AM »
I think we can safely assume we all know what was meant by the word "test" and ignore xasop's transparent troll.

That said, if the test was well defined, the only way to pervert it would be to redefine it, which the remaining voters would hopefully have a say on. This isn't really more or less vulnerable to warping than current democratic systems.
Making the exact same point I just made is an interesting way of ignoring my point.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Democracy Is Overrated
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2021, 07:53:27 AM »
Making the exact same point I just made is an interesting way of ignoring my point.
You probably wanted to make a point, but instead you rambled about how the word "test" might mean something else than what was pretty clearly Saddam's intention. You then concluded, based on that subverted definition, that such a ">><<test>><<" can be implemented without breaching democratic principles, which is antithetical to what I suggested. I implore everyone, yourself included, that we do not waste our time on that. With that in mind, this is the last time I'm addressing it. If you want to make your point clear, start now instead of dumping vague implications and then insisting that people cLeArLy agree with you.

If you agree with my point, or if you indeed intended to make it yourself, then at least it has now been articulated. Win-win.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 07:55:35 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Online xasop

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Re: Democracy Is Overrated
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2021, 08:08:54 AM »
If you agree with my point, or if you indeed intended to make it yourself, then at least it has now been articulated. Win-win.
I thought I did, but now you're saying that it's antithetical to what I agree with, so I suppose we may never know what you meant.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

Re: Democracy Is Overrated
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2021, 08:29:30 AM »
Who are you to say that The People™️ don't want to be ruled by people with funny faces? Why should your subjective reasons to vote for someone trump others' reasons?
I'd suggest that having a funny face is an objectively bad way of determining whether someone is fit to run a country.
I'd also suggest that having some understanding of what the person with the funny face stands for and is promising to do is advantageous when deciding whether to vote for them.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Re: Democracy Is Overrated
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2021, 08:46:13 AM »
So what is the point in reading the manifesto if it can be full of lies?
Because if you've read it then you know it was full of lies. And that might make you think twice about voting for the person or party who promised them again. And obviously no-one reads the whole thing. But making sure someone knows the key points isn't a bad thing.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Democracy Is Overrated
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2021, 12:03:15 PM »
So what is the point in reading the manifesto if it can be full of lies?
Because if you've read it then you know it was full of lies. And that might make you think twice about voting for the person or party who promised them again. And obviously no-one reads the whole thing. But making sure someone knows the key points isn't a bad thing.

So you want to conduct a test on a manifesto that you don't expect people to fully read and despite it possibly being full of lies and empty promises anyway, if you can't regurgitate those jingoistic tropes when tested, you will lose your right to vote?

This sounds like a shitty idea.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Democracy Is Overrated
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2021, 01:13:02 PM »
I'd suggest that having a funny face is an objectively bad way of determining whether someone is fit to run a country.
I only disagree that it's objective. As you said, plenty of people vote like this and are perfectly happy with their choices. You want for people like you and me to assert our superiority over their judgement. Annoyingly, this is only desirable to those already convinced.

I'd also suggest that having some understanding of what the person with the funny face stands for and is promising to do is advantageous when deciding whether to vote for them.
Let me probe this a little bit. Let's say that we take the average "stupid" voter and educate them on what parties stand for. What happens when they start voting for completely idiotic policies? For the sake of a thought experiment, imagine that they're voting for something "objectively" terrible, and they're doing so in droves. A certain referendum comes to mind. Would you still consider this an improvement over funny faces?
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Re: Democracy Is Overrated
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2021, 01:34:55 PM »
So you want to conduct a test on a manifesto that you don't expect people to fully read and despite it possibly being full of lies and empty promises anyway
I think people should be familiar with the key points in manifestos so that they can make a more informed choice when they vote and so they can compare what was promised to what was delivered. That's a reasonable expectation to have of someone before they vote.
I'm not 100% sold on the idea of a test, there are certainly problems with the idea, but the older I get and the more stupid I see people becoming the more I warm to the idea.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Democracy Is Overrated
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2021, 01:52:20 PM »
Putting the vote in the hands of any kind of elite group would be antithetical to our modern conception of democracy. And that includes a test to determine someone's understanding of what their political party stands for. Educated people would obviously have a better grasp of such things, so it would guarantee educated classes would have more of a say and the poor would be disenfranchised. I feel like that's precisely the opposite of what democracy is supposed to accomplish.

Democracy isn't perfect, but it seems to be the best system available for giving at least some power to decide a government's agenda to everybody, so yeah, Pongo's point.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 01:54:04 PM by Roundy »
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Re: Democracy Is Overrated
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2021, 01:57:37 PM »
Isn't this why we don't let children vote though? Because we don't believe they have the understanding to make an informed choice.
Is it unreasonable to expect to know what the parties various policies are at a high level?
Do you really need to be educated to learn that?
I'm not talking about all the details and minutiae. I mean look at this mouth breather



He just called our PM Joris Bohnson.
Joris.
Bohnson.

So he gets a vote, does he? Despite not knowing the actual name of the Prime Minister...
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Iceman

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Re: Democracy Is Overrated
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2021, 02:03:11 PM »

So he gets a vote, does he? Despite not knowing the actual name of the Prime Minister...

Well, yea, that’s…. How it goes.

Obviously it would be great if everyone was informed and engaged, and held their elected officials accountable for their actions and inaction related to different issues. We’re not there yet. But an entrance exam to gain access to a voting booth is one hell of a slippery slope

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Democracy Is Overrated
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2021, 02:55:22 PM »
He just called our PM Joris Bohnson.
Joris.
Bohnson.
Ehhhhh. He pretty clearly has a speech impediment (and there could be other factors affecting how he articulates himself), and it's more than likely that he just misspoke. Note that he stuttered. To me it sounded something like "Bo[stutter]joris Bohnson". I think you might be too quick to judge.
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Democracy Is Overrated
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2021, 02:56:16 PM »
Why would understanding of a political party's policies be a deciding factor anyway? We're ostensibly supposed to be voting for the individual candidate whose goals most closely align with our own, and few politicians actually adhere strictly to one side or the other. Meanwhile it would strengthen the notion that we should always pick one ideology over the other, like the world is black and white. It's just a bad idea all the way around.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Democracy Is Overrated
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2021, 03:31:31 PM »
Y'all are missing the obvious and stupidly easy solution: put a bulleted point list in the viting area for each candidate.

Or, if you have really nice voting booths with touch screens, selecting a candidate gives a small list of their policies.


But this is why we have political parties: so you don't have to care what a specific person thinks, just what the party itself stands for.

If we want to really fuck up the system and force people to think or vote based on name/look..., make political parties illegal.  Or at least ban candidates from revealing which party they are part of.  Would mean people wouldn't be able to vote party lines without research.
Hell, it would disenfranchise voters more than anything.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Democracy Is Overrated
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2021, 04:06:40 PM »
Quote
I'd suggest that having a funny face is an objectively bad way of determining whether someone is fit to run a country.
I only disagree that it's objective. As you said, plenty of people vote like this and are perfectly happy with their choices. You want for people like you and me to assert our superiority over their judgement. Annoyingly, this is only desirable to those already convinced.
I say it's objective because there are certain traits which one would fairly reasonably associate with being a good leader.
Having a funny face isn't one of them. Nor is someone's star sign. Or a load of other things which someone might use as a reason for voting for someone, or not voting for them. Unless someone can demonstrate that Geminis make better leaders then people shouldn't be using that as part of their reason for voting for someone.

Quote
Let me probe this a little bit. Let's say that we take the average "stupid" voter and educate them on what parties stand for. What happens when they start voting for completely idiotic policies? For the sake of a thought experiment, imagine that they're voting for something "objectively" terrible, and they're doing so in droves. A certain referendum comes to mind. Would you still consider this an improvement over funny faces?

Well. I don't think there are many objectively good or bad policies.
Without wishing to go all Godwin's Law, I don't think there's any party extreme enough to have "exterminate the Jews" as a policy, one which I think the vast majority of people would agree is objectively bad. Politics in this country is fairly middle of the road, the pros and cons of most policies can be debated. People want to pay less tax, but people want good infrastructure and a lot of people think nurses should get paid more. You can't have it both ways. So most policies have pros and cons. It would be nice to think that people voting have some handle on what the parties policies are, at the moment it's become little more than an X-Factor style popularity context. Style over substance isn't new of course, but I think in the era of social media and increasingly polished media soundbites it's got worse.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis