Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #540 on: September 17, 2014, 01:12:39 PM »
I could bring here the overwhelming evidence which does show that the Exodus, as is described in the Bible, could never have taken place at all.

However, I will bring to your attention something you have no knowledge about, something new to our discussion.


THE SANTORINI (THERA) ERUPTION AND THE EXODUS

The extraordinary research performed by Dr. Max Bichler (Atomic Institute of Vienna) which demonstrates that the fallout from the eruption of the Thera volcano (Santorini), including volcanic ash and pumice, reached Egypt.

http://www.planet-austria.at/0xc1aa500d_0x0005a45f.pdf


This means that the eruption of the Santorini volcano is the basis of the twelve plagues depicted in the Exodus.

http://www.greeka.com/cyclades/santorini/santorini-volcano/biblical.htm

However, this leads to a huge problem, unsolved to this day, as the date proposed for the eruption of Thera is in the decade 1630–1620 BC, and is based on radiocarbon dating, dendrochronology, ice core measurements, and similar scientific investigations.

A later date was proposed for the eruption of Thera is in the range of 1535–1525 BC, and is “based chiefly on ceramic sequences and Egyptian synchronisms”.


If the natural disasters described in the Exodus chapters did also occur some 50-150 years earlier, why is their account missing in those books/chapters?

If the Thera volcano eruption did cause the plagues described in the Exodus, then this leads directly to the huge problem which is unsolved to this day, and which involves questions relating to the very foundation of the heliocentric planetary system.


Various authors proposed the theory that the planet Venus caused the pole shift which in turn lead to the stupendous catastrophe documented by Dr. Adam Maloof (Princeton).

The main proof comes from the Ammizaduga Venus tables which show that the orbit followed by Venus in the past was markedly different from that observed in the present.

http://www.skepticfiles.org/neocat/ammi.htm

Charles Ginenthal (Sagan and Velikovsky) has a great deal to
say about the Ammizaduga tablets, pp 281 - 284, quoting Livio C.
Stecchini's "The Velikovsky Affair":

     "The Venus tablets of Ammizaduga is the most striking document
     of early Babylonian astronomy.  These tablets, of which we
     possess several copies of different origin, report the dates
     of the helical rising and setting of the planet Venus during
     a period of 21 years...

     "Since the first effort at explanation of Archibald Henry
     Sayce in 1874, these figures have challenged the wit of a
     score of experts of astronomy and cuneiform philology.
     (Father Franz Xavier) Kugler (1862 - 1929), a recognized major
     authority on Babylonian and biblical astronomy, chronology and
     mythology, opposed the contention of those who claim that
     these documents must be dismissed as nonsense."  [because they
     do not conform to present orbital patterns for Venus]

 "Let me give some typical passages from the tablet:

 
     "In the month of Sivan, on the twenty fifth day, Ninsianna
     [that is, Venus] disappeared in the east; she remained absent
     from the sky for two months, six days; in the month Ulul on
     the 24'th day, Ninsianna appeared in the West - the heart of
     the land is happy. In the month Nisan on the 27'th day,
     Ninsianna disappeared in the West; she remained absent from
     the sky for seven days; in the month Ayar on the third day,
     Ninsianna appeared in the east - hostilities occur in the
     land, the harvest of the land is successful.


     "The first invisibility mentioned in these lines involves a
     disappearance in the east, an invisibility of two months, six
     days, and a reappearance in the west.  This seems to be a
     superior conjunction. The second invisibility involves a
     disappearance in the west, an invisibility of seven days, and
     a reappearance in the east.  This seems to be an inferior
     conjunction.  Most of the data in groups one and three on the
     tablet are of this form.  But the lengths and spacings of
     these invisibilities have a certain irregularity about them,
     and they do not conform to the manner in which Venus moves at
     present.

     "The data given in the second group on the tablet do have
     regularity - even too much regularity to be believable, - but
     they do not conform to the present state of affairs
     either.....

Adam Maloof (Princeton) and Lonnie Thompson (Ohio State University) confirm that a stupendous catastrophy occurred some 5200 years ago.

http://www.mayanendoftheworldplanetx.com/Pages/videostudio.html

Princeton University geoscientist, Adam Maloof investigates 2012 Maya prognostications, in response to the many queries he has received concerning the possibility of an upcoming geographical poleshift. Dr. Maloof's specialities include paleogeography, the study of continental plate transmigrations. In these National Geographic video clips, he travels from the frigid Arctic to the scorching outbacks of Australia to the dense forrest of Central America, to investigate geologic evidence and traditions of any pass geographic poleshift.

His research revealed not one but two important discoveries; one poleshift transpired slowly over a million years( posing no threat to life on earth) while the other happened abruptly some 5200 years ago(approximately the end of the Maya's last Great Cycle, when the last "world" ended.) Perhaps a coincidence, but it was enough for Dr. Maloof to pursue and study the ancient Maya legacy in greater depth. A journey that would take him from Dresden Germany, home of the famous Dresden Codex (one of four codices that survived the Inquisition) to the ancient ruins of Chi'chen Itza.

To understand how these ancient people with such remarkable mathematical and astronomical skills, were inclined to prognosticate the future with such conviction. Their obsession with cycles and climate change, their beliefs that all major cycles began and ended with global destruction.

With the aid of notable Paleoclimatologist, Lonnie Thompson from Ohio State University, they venture to the summit of the Quelccaya ice caps of the Peruvian Andes at sixteen thousand feet, to unlock secrets trapped in the glaciers for over five thousands years. While continents apart, from ice core samples at Mt. Kilimanjaro, Africa to "Otzi The Iceman" from the Austrian Alps, all corroborate a global disaster at the end of the last Long Count cycle and provide possible insight on what may happen at the end of this current Great Cycle.

Full video can be seen in the National Geographic 2012 The Final Prophecy documentary.



Billions of tons of ice would have fallen on the polar regions, flash-freezing everything in little more than an instant.
 
This, at last, would explain the mystery of the mammoths found frozen where they stood. The mammoth, contrary to belief, was not a cold region animal, but one which lived in temperate grasslands.
 
Somehow those temperate regions were frozen in a moment. Some mammoths have been found frozen in the middle of eating! There you are munching away and the next thing you know you’re an ice lolly. If this ionized ice did rain down, the biggest build up would have been nearest to the magnetic poles because they would have had the most powerful attraction. Again, that is the case. The ice mass in the polar regions is greater at the poles than at the periphery and yet there is less snow and rain at the poles to create such a build up.


It is proposed that the carefully documented proofs of the catastrophe actually describe the end of the last Ice Age, which occurred some 3.500 years ago (and not 5.200 years ago).


http://www.immanuelvelikovsky.com/mammoth.pdf (THE EXTINCTION OF THE MAMMOTH)

"The sudden extermination of mammoths was caused by a catastrophe
and probably resulted from asphyxiation or electrocution. The immediately
subsequent movement of the Siberian continent into the polar region is probably
responsible for the preservation of the corpses.

"It appears that the mammoths, along with other animals, were killed by
a tempest of gases accompanied by a spontaneous lack of oxygen caused by fires
raging high in the atmosphere. A few instances later their dying or dead bodies
were moving into the polar circle. In a few hours northeastern America moved
from the frigid zone of the polar circle into a moderate zone; northeastern Siberia
moved in the opposite direction from a moderate zone to the polar circle. The
present cold climate of northern Siberia started when the glacial age in Europe
and America came to a sudden end."

http://asis.com/users/stag/starchiv/transcriptions/ST110Velikovsky.html (exceptionally documented)

The sudden shift in the direction of the axis of Earth would have meant a slowing down of the velocity of the diurnal rotation of the Earth, and there would have no way for the Earth to regain the same velocity of the diurnal rotation as before, after Venus departed to a different orbit.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sci_2.htm (superb documentation)







« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 01:16:44 PM by sandokhan »

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #541 on: September 17, 2014, 02:18:40 PM »
First off, there were 10 Plagues, not 12. Second, the dating of the Exodus has always been questionable. Saying it happened during the time of Raameses II is the most popular thing to do, but not necessarily the accurate thing to do. The biblical text does not name the Pharaoh under whom it took place. Since Raameses II was one of the most powerful monarchs ever to sit upon a throne ANYWHERE in the world at anytime in history, I suspect it happened at some different time.

Could a volcano have caused it? I don't see why not. Would that change the traditional dating? Sure. So what? Your point is? God can easily untilise natural events to make supernatural things occur. I see nothing unusual about that. It seems to me that, to paraphrase Shakespeare, "me thinketh that the man doth protest too much". You are grasping at straws. How's that working out for you?

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #542 on: September 17, 2014, 02:37:08 PM »
The quote with the 12 plagues was included just as it appeared in the work cited.

There are no straws here, just a total destruction/demolition of your main argument: that Judaism is the oldest religion.

The proofs coming from the natural sciences are very clear: the stupendous catastrophe which did cause the extinction of the mammoths could not possibly have occurred in a heliocentric system.


Let me put an end to this thread right now.

WHO WROTE THE BIBLE?

Independent but nearly simultaneous proposals by H. B. Witter, Jean Astruc, and Johann Gottfried Eichhorn separated the Pentateuch into two original documentary components, both dating from after the time of Moses. Others hypothesized the presence of two additional sources. The four documents were given working titles: J (Jahwist/Yahwist), E (Elohist), P (Priestly), and D (Deuteronomist). Each was discernible by its own characteristic language, and each, when read in isolation, presented a unified, coherent narrative.

The documentary hypothesis has more recently been refined by later scholars such as Martin Noth (who in 1943 provided evidence that Deuteronomy plus the following six books make a unified history from the hand of a single editor), Harold Bloom, Frank Moore Cross and Richard Elliot Friedman.

1 and 2 Samuel were written BEFORE the priestly version was invented (the priestly version was written according to the official chronology at least 600 - 800 years after the Exodus; this version which consists of, among other numerous passages, the whole book of Leviticus, Exodus chapters 25-32, 35-40, Numbers 3-10, 15-20, 27-30, 35-36, Deuteronomy 18, Joshua 22):

http://www.awitness.org/contrabib/torah/latedate.html (one of the very best)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_source

http://islamworld.net/torah.html

http://www.voltairenet.org/article160971.html


Also the book of Judges, chapters 13 and 21 contradict directly the laws/regulations written down in the book of Leviticus.

The author of the books of 1 and 2 Samuel and the book of Judges HAD NO KNOWLEDGE of the laws/regulations in the Leviticus/Numbers/Exodus, as these were created well after the (J) and (E) versions.


http://www.talkreason.org/articles/letter1.cfm (COMPLETE DEMOLITION OF THE EXODUS STORY)


https://web.archive.org/web/20100307232900/http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/biblewho6.htm (tremendous research, one of the very best)

https://web.archive.org/web/20090420173322/http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/biblewho1.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20111108153953/http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/biblewho3.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20091116035925/http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/biblewho4.htm




https://web.archive.org/web/20100909121008/http://www.hindurevolution.org/01/monotheismju03.htm (exceptionally documented)

https://web.archive.org/web/20120803000912/http://www.hindurevolution.org/01/monotheismju04.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20120427132146/http://www.hindurevolution.org/01/monotheismju01.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20120801224058/http://www.hindurevolution.org/01/monotheismju02.htm


https://web.archive.org/web/20100822060346/http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biggestsecret/tales_timeloop/tales_timeloop09.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20100318002654/http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biggestsecret/biggestsecretbook/biggestsecret04.htm



https://web.archive.org/web/20071025011345/http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/jewish/30yrs/rendsburg/index.html

A third model developed, much more radical in its approach.  The archaeological evidence now was interpreted to demonstrate that the Israelites did not originate outside the land, but were in origin Canaanites who had shifted gears.  Israelite pottery was indistinguishable from Canaanite pottery; Israelite architecture was indistinguishable from Canaanite architecture; Israelite water systems were indistinguishable from Canaanite water systems; and so on. All of this meant that the Israelites were Canaanites.

Bible Unearthed (Finkelstein/Silberman)

The Bible Unearthed begins by considering what it terms the 'preamble' of the bible, the Book of Genesis, and its relationship to archaeological evidence for the context in which its narratives are set. Archaeological discoveries about society and culture in the ancient near east lead the authors to point out a number of anachronisms, suggestive that the narratives were actually set down in the 9th-7th centuries:

   * Aramaeans are frequently mentioned, but no ancient text mentions them until around 1100BCE, and they only begin to dominate Israel's northern borders after the 9th century BCE.
    * The text describes the early origin of the neighbouring kingdom of Edom, but Assyrian records show that Edom only came into existence after the conquest of the region by Assyria; before then it was without functioning kings, wasn't a distinct state, and archaeological evidence shows that the territory was only sparsely populated.
    * The Joseph story refers to camel-based traders carrying gum, balm, and myrrh, an unlikely event for the first millennium, but quite common in the 8th-7th centuries BCE, when Assyrian hegemony enabled this Arabian trade to flourish into a major industry.
    * The land of Goshen has a name that comes from an Arabic group who only dominated the Nile Delta in the 6th and 5th centuries.
    * The Egyptian Pharaoh is portrayed as fearing invasion from the east, even though Egypt's territory stretched to the northern parts of Canaan, with its main threat consequently being from the north, until the 7th century

The book comments that this corresponds with the documentary hypothesis, in which textual scholarship argues for the majority of the first five biblical books being written between the 8th and 6th centuries.

Finkelstein and Silberman argue that instead of the Israelites conquering Canaan after the Exodus (as suggested by the book of Joshua), most of them had in fact always been there; the Israelites were simply Canaanites who developed into a distinct culture.Recent surveys of long-term settlement patterns in the Israelite heartlands show no sign of violent invasion or even peaceful infiltration, but rather a sudden demographic transformation about 1200 BCE in which villages appear in the previously unpopulated highlands;these settlements have a similar appearance to modern Bedouin camps, suggesting that the inhabitants were once pastoral nomads, driven to take up farming by the Late Bronze Age collapse of the Canaanite city-culture.


No historical David/Solomon

http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/Doc6/dsmyth.htm

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0160Solomon.php


Next time we meet, we will discuss the extraordinary astronomical proofs which show that the Council of Nicaea could not have taken place before the year 876-877 AD, which destroy your arguments as to the dating of the Exodus.



EDIT


Also, the quote from Jeremiah 7:22 contradicts directly the laws/regulations of the Leviticus. There have been attempts to explain this quote (Jeremiah 7:22 For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices...) within the context of figurative language, an argument which can be contradicted immediately:

https://web.archive.org/web/20090713230842/http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/fprophet.html

http://www.awitness.org/essays/levjer.html
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 02:55:06 PM by sandokhan »

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #543 on: September 17, 2014, 02:53:40 PM »
You are again assuming that I accept any "modern liberal Biblical scholarship". I do not. Moses wrote the first five books of the Hebrew Bible. Joshua wrote the Sixth. I could go on, and name the writers of each, but I shan't bother. I don't accept the whole concept of three authors writing the Pentateuch. At most, there may have been some embroidering of numbers, and that may actually have been done by Moses himself as part of a Kabbalistic understanding Exodus.

So, you are not going to win here. If I were you, I would stop trying to bother. All you are doing is making yourself look like an ass.

I've studied "modern liberal Biblical scholarship" just as you have. In fact, I probably know more about it than you do, having been educated in a liberal Catholic university, where religion and theology courses were required. I also studied for ministry at one point. So don't try to lecture me about current liberal theology. I already know it better than you do. I simply am not stupid enough to accept it as you do.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 02:56:59 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #544 on: September 17, 2014, 02:56:29 PM »
I have already won.

Moses did not write any books, let alone the book of Exodus, please read the very carefully documented proofs.


Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #545 on: September 17, 2014, 02:57:39 PM »
I've studied "modern liberal Biblical scholarship" just as you have. In fact, I probably know more about it than you do, having been educated in a liberal Catholic university, where religion and theology courses were required. I also studied for ministry at one point. So don't try to lecture me about current liberal theology. I already know it better than you do. I simply am not stupid enough to accept it as you do.

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #546 on: September 17, 2014, 03:13:36 PM »
The ample proofs presented here do show that you were stupid enough to accept that Moses wrote the book of Exodus.

Do yourself a favor and read this:

http://www.awitness.org/contrabib/torah/latedate.html

Or the extraordinary book, Bible Unearthed, written by Dr. Israel Finkelstein:

http://books.google.ro/books?id=lu6ywyJr0CMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=israel+finkelstein+bible+unearthed&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4DgYVNPGD6viywOQ94HACA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=israel%20finkelstein%20bible%20unearthed&f=false


You might just learn something.






Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #547 on: September 17, 2014, 03:37:01 PM »
I see no purpose in reviewing stuff that I was forced to swallow in liberal left-wing unversity courses by professors that basically hated white, straight, male, Jewish persons. And ultimately God, of course. I had to read that shit once. I am all too familiar with the J, P, E, D, bullshit, and all the crap about the Bible not being written when tradition says it was, and the Exodus not having occurred, and yada, yada, yada.

My response? Bite me. Hell, I'm even familiar with the claims that Mark wrote his Gospel first, and that Matthew and Luke borrowed from him and some unknown document they call Q (from the German "Quelle" meaning "Source"). Well, of course, this is stupid. No one has ever found this mysterious "Q" document. Now, I am no Christian, but come on! How can you possibly make the claim that the Gospel writers used a source that you don't even know exists! That is just fucktarded!

So, Finkelstein can bite me. So can you, while you're at it. I've read all this shit before. I don't see the need to pollute my brain with further shit.

Rama Set

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #548 on: September 17, 2014, 03:46:02 PM »
Arguments from Authority and Ad Hominem attacks.  Very convincing arguments, Yaakov, to be certain.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #549 on: September 17, 2014, 03:53:18 PM »
I see no arguments from authority at all. Ad homs, yes, intended ones. Unless you count tradition as an authority (I'm not so sure I do, at least not a valid one per se). I mean, ok, it has a vote, but not a veto, lets put it that way.

Rama Set

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #550 on: September 17, 2014, 03:56:46 PM »
I see no arguments from authority at all. Ad homs, yes, intended ones. Unless you count tradition as an authority (I'm not so sure I do, at least not a valid one per se). I mean, ok, it has a vote, but not a veto, lets put it that way.

This argument from authority:

I've studied "modern liberal Biblical scholarship" just as you have. In fact, I probably know more about it than you do, having been educated in a liberal Catholic university, where religion and theology courses were required. I also studied for ministry at one point. So don't try to lecture me about current liberal theology. I already know it better than you do. I simply am not stupid enough to accept it as you do.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #551 on: September 17, 2014, 04:03:06 PM »
That's not an argument. That is simply a statement of fact. He keeps trying make a "teachable moment" out his blathering, like he's leading me to the Great Well of Enlightenment, or something. Well, the truth is, I've been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, and the hat. I don't need his "teachable moments". I probably DO know more about the subject than he does.

Again, I am not trying to make any arguments with my statement. I am not even trying to say that I can prove that Moses wrote the Torah based on the fact that I know more about "modern liberal Biblical scholarship" than he does. I am simply making the acknowledgement that I do indeed have more knowledge on the subject than he does. Again, there is no argument being offered, but simply a point being made.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 04:24:52 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

Rama Set

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #552 on: September 17, 2014, 04:28:49 PM »
That's not an argument. That is simply as statement of fact. He keeps trying make a "teachable moment" out his blathering, like he's leading me to the Great Well of Enlightenment, or something. Well, the truth is, I've been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, and the hat. I don't need his "teachable moments". I probably DO know more about the subject than he does.

Again, I am not trying to make any arguments with my statement. I am not even trying to say that I can prove that Moses wrote the Torah based on the fact that I know more about "modern liberal Biblical scholarship" than he does. I am simply making the acknowledgement that I do indeed have more knowledge on the subject than he does. Again, there is no argument being offered, but simply a point being made.

Many arguments take the form of statements of fact, but what matters is the ends to which you made this statement of fact.  Near as I can tell you were stating something akin to the following:

"I have seen it all before, so whatever you are arguing has been considered by me and I deem it wrong."

This interpretation is borne out by you following post:

I see no purpose in reviewing stuff that I was forced to swallow in liberal left-wing unversity courses by professors that basically hated white, straight, male, Jewish persons. And ultimately God, of course. I had to read that shit once. I am all too familiar with the J, P, E, D, bullshit, and all the crap about the Bible not being written when tradition says it was, and the Exodus not having occurred, and yada, yada, yada.

My response? Bite me. Hell, I'm even familiar with the claims that Mark wrote his Gospel first, and that Matthew and Luke borrowed from him and some unknown document they call Q (from the German "Quelle" meaning "Source"). Well, of course, this is stupid. No one has ever found this mysterious "Q" document. Now, I am no Christian, but come on! How can you possibly make the claim that the Gospel writers used a source that you don't even know exists! That is just fucktarded!

So, Finkelstein can bite me. So can you, while you're at it. I've read all this shit before. I don't see the need to pollute my brain with further shit.

Where you do not refute any salient points, but merely discuss how distasteful it was to have to learn about these authors work's.  Again, your argument boils down to, "I have seen it all before (a.k.a. I am an authority) and it is wrong."; which of course is the essence of an argument of authority.  Until you provide some substantial rebuttal, Sandokhan is not worthy of any of the Ad Hominems you are heaping on him.  I never thought I would see the day that I defended Sandokhan, but there is no limit to your troll.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #553 on: September 17, 2014, 04:37:36 PM »
Well, I'm not claiming to be an authority, because I am not trying to convince him that he is wrong. I am simply trying to tell him that he shouldn't bother trying convince me that I am. Frankly, I don't care what he believes or does not believe. It is of no concern to me. This thread is called "Ask a Jew Anything". The purpose of said thread is for people to come in and ask me what Jews believe about a given thing, or why Jews do or do not do a thing. I am not here to argue whether or or not Judaism is true. I am here to simply present the breadth of Jewish Faith and Practice to the non-Jewish population. If someone has a constructive disagreement, well, that is fine, we can discuss that, but I am in no mood to continually defend my beliefs from someone who doesn't want to learn, but only to tear down.

I don't give a rat's ass what he believes. And I am not trying to make him accept my beliefs. My ad homs are to indicate that I think he is a fucktard, not to make him accept my beliefs. There is a difference there.

So no, I am not attempting to argue a damned thing.

Rama Set

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #554 on: September 17, 2014, 04:54:28 PM »
Cool story bro.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #555 on: September 17, 2014, 04:57:47 PM »
Remember what I have said repeatedly on this thread. Jews neither know, nor particularly care, what God has or has not taught non-Jews. We know what God has taught us, and what he expects of us. What lies beyond that is quite beyond our paygrade, and none of our concern.

*

Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #556 on: September 17, 2014, 05:01:29 PM »
I see no arguments from authority at all. Ad homs, yes, intended ones. Unless you count tradition as an authority (I'm not so sure I do, at least not a valid one per se). I mean, ok, it has a vote, but not a veto, lets put it that way.

This argument from authority:

I've studied "modern liberal Biblical scholarship" just as you have. In fact, I probably know more about it than you do, having been educated in a liberal Catholic university, where religion and theology courses were required. I also studied for ministry at one point. So don't try to lecture me about current liberal theology. I already know it better than you do. I simply am not stupid enough to accept it as you do.
Considering his own ad Hominems he throws about his own professors, im not sure he considers his education valid.  By his own insults, he probably knows only wrong things about the subject.

Jew question: why would a Jew learn christianity from a god hating atheist, then worship in a mosque, then claim to be a Jew?


Remember what I have said repeatedly on this thread. Jews neither know, nor particularly care, what God has or has not taught non-Jews. We know what God has taught us, and what he expects of us. What lies beyond that is quite beyond our paygrade, and none of our concern.
Unlesss its to kill Jews.  Amirite?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #557 on: September 17, 2014, 05:15:22 PM »
I have studied practically every religion on the planet at one time or other. This involved visiting the mosque for a time. And since I attended a Catholic university, I knew that would involve taking religion courses. Which I wouldn't have minded had they actually taught true Catholic doctrine rather than the liberal bullshit that they actually taught. Fortunately, outside of the Religion Dept, the university in question was an excellent one, and my philosophy major (one of the few universities in the country where the majority of philosophy profs are theists) and my history major were conservative, traditional, and brilliant.

Remember that I was raised completely NON-Observant. I was less Jewish than anybody I ever knew. I began exploring spirituality when I was about 12, but I didn't start with Judaism. I came to my own Faith late. My family did not encourage me to explore Judaism at all. That was a decision I made completely on my own, comparatively recently. In fact, where I lived, there was no synagogue, so I ended up starting my search in churches.

This journey for some Jews is NOT unusual. I always knew my ethnicity was Jewish, but it was essentially in a coma, and I never looked to the religion to succor me, since I lived in a totally non-Jewish environment. Why would I? What was there to appeal to me, until I came into contact with Jews? So it was much later, after exploring Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism that I finally turned  to Judaism.

Ghost of V

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #558 on: September 17, 2014, 05:16:21 PM »
I have studied practically every religion on the planet at one time or other.

What do you think about Theistic Satanism?

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #559 on: September 17, 2014, 05:35:28 PM »
Theistic in what sense? In the sense that they actually acknowledge the existence of the Abrahamic God but choose to worship the rebellious angel Satan? Frankly, I think that there have been VERY FEW persons that actually have done this in history. And the few that have have generally had serious psychological and/or psychiatric problems. Most of the people down through history that have been accused of this have been old women that pissed somebody off. On the rare occasions that they have been religious non-conformists, they have usually been Jews or primitive pagans, not Satanists.

And when you do find the very rare real Theistic Satanist, again, they are usually messed up. But as a Jew, I don't acknowledge the existence of a rebellious angel turned Devil. Satan is the Prosecuting Attorney of God's Heavenly Court. Read the Book of Job for more on this. So, since I don't acknowledge the Christian or Muslim Devil, or a place of eternal punishment called Hell, I certainly consider a person who tries to worship such a being to be very messed up indeed.