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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9580 on: July 04, 2022, 05:07:44 AM »
He didn't stop them.

When they entered the building he told them to go home:



Quote from: Dr Van Nostrand
he didn't call Homeland Security

Actually Trump said that he deployed the National Guard and Federal Law Enforcement. See the 11 second mark in the following video: "I immediately deployed the National Guard and Federal Law Enforcement to secure the building"



It was also corroborated by officers in testimony that the National Guard was called:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-117hhrg44854/html/CHRG-117hhrg44854.htm

    " This team of over 40 officers and non-
    commissioned officers immediately worked to recall the 154 D.C.
    National Guard personnel from their current missions,
    reorganize them, re-equip them, and begin to redeploy them to
    the Capitol. We also began to coordinate for the arrival of
    neighboring states that were committing National Guard forces
    into the District of Columbia. Simultaneously, we had to gather
    materials, do surveys, and plan for barrier materials to be
    moved to the Capitol in order to protect that institution and
    you, and many, many other tasks. This work continued with utter
    focus and urgency throughout the night of January 6 and well
    afterwards. "
« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 05:36:44 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9581 on: July 04, 2022, 06:53:28 AM »
He didn't stop them.

When they entered the building he told them to go home:

That video is 2 hours after the initial breach of the building. 1 hour after the breach he tweeted: "remain peaceful".

13:10
Mr Trump ends his speech with the words: "We fight. We fight like hell and if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore. So let's walk down Pennsylvania Avenue.”

14:13
Secret Service quickly and suddenly evacuate Mr Pence from the Senate floor.
The protesters break through the windows. They push inside, hopping through the broken glass. They then kick open the doors to let others in. Some wear hoods and helmets, some hold cameras or Confederate flags.

14:24
President Trump tweets about Mr Pence.


Rioters start to spread through the buildings. Others break in from outside through various doors around the building.
They open the east side door of the rotunda to let more people in, flooding through the doors and overwhelming the officers.

15:13
Trump tweets asking for people to "remain peaceful”.

16:17
Trump releases a video in which he tells the mob to go home.


Quote from: Dr Van Nostrand
he didn't call Homeland Security

Actually Trump said that he deployed the National Guard and Federal Law Enforcement. See the 11 second mark in the following video: "I immediately deployed the National Guard and Federal Law Enforcement to secure the building"

It was also corroborated by officers in testimony that the National Guard was called:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-117hhrg44854/html/CHRG-117hhrg44854.htm

    " This team of over 40 officers and non-
    commissioned officers immediately worked to recall the 154 D.C.
    National Guard personnel from their current missions,
    reorganize them, re-equip them, and begin to redeploy them to
    the Capitol. We also began to coordinate for the arrival of
    neighboring states that were committing National Guard forces
    into the District of Columbia. Simultaneously, we had to gather
    materials, do surveys, and plan for barrier materials to be
    moved to the Capitol in order to protect that institution and
    you, and many, many other tasks. This work continued with utter
    focus and urgency throughout the night of January 6 and well
    afterwards. "

Apparently incorrect:

Republican Rep. Liz Cheney of Wyoming said that it was former Vice President Mike Pence, not former President Donald Trump, who called for the military to defend the U.S. Capitol during the riot.

Mr. Trump “placed no call to any element of the U.S. government to instruct that the Capitol be defended,” Ms. Cheney said.

She said Mr. Trump did not call his Secretary of Defense on Jan. 6, or speak to his Attorney General or the Department of Homeland Security.

“Trump gave no order to deploy the National Guard that day, and made no effort to work with the Department of Justice to coordinate and deploy law enforcement assets,” Ms. Cheney said. “But Mike Pence did each of those things.”

She quoted testimony from Gen. Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who said he got multiple calls from Mr. Pence on Jan. 6.

“He was very animated, and he issued very explicit, very direct, unambiguous orders. There was no question about that. And I can get you the exact quotes,” Gen. Milley said. “But he was very animated, very direct, very firm to Sec. Miller. Get the military down here, get the guard down here. Put down this situation, et cetera.”

When Gen. Milley recalled his conversation with Mark Meadows, Mr. Trump’s chief of staff, on Jan. 6, he said Mr. Meadows told him: “'We have to kill the narrative that the Vice President is making all the decisions. We need to establish the narrative, you know, that the President is still in charge and that things are steady or stable.' … I immediately interpreted that as politics. Politics. Politics. Red flag for me, personally. No action. But I remember it distinctly. And I don’t do political narratives.”

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/jan-6-hearings-news-live/card/cheney-trump-never-called-military-to-defend-u-s-capitol-on-jan-6-but-pence-did-js5yUaivfa2Yz5QCZ77p

He should have sent out a remain peaceful tweet even before breach, when people started to smash their way in. He didn't.

He immediately (10 minutes after breach) ginned-up the situation with his nasty tweet targeting Pence for his lack of courage to gum up the proceedings.

He should have called in the Nat. Guard immediately after things started to get out of control, even prior to breach. He didn't.

In fact, he didn't call in the Nat Guard at all. Pence did.

Re: Trump
« Reply #9582 on: July 04, 2022, 07:29:51 AM »
He didn't stop them.

When they entered the building he told them to go home
That would work so much better as a defence had he not spent months repeating lies about the election being stolen which whipped up the crowd in the first place. And held the rally on January 6th which is why the crowd were there in the first place. Even in the video where he did tell them to go home - about 2 hours after they went in to the building - he doubled down on those lies. And in a later tweet he called them “great patriots”.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9583 on: July 04, 2022, 09:45:07 AM »
He didn't stop them.

When they entered the building he told them to go home:

Oh, puh-leeze.

You don't think everyone can examine the timeline of when the rioters were breaking in, and when Trump spoke? Really?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9584 on: July 04, 2022, 11:01:09 AM »
He did tell them to go home when they were in the building. They were in the building when the video was published. They didn't get inside instantly. He posted the video approximately when other world leaders were condemning the event and about 10 minutes after Joe Biden called to end the riots.

Although this is clearly biased, a more detailed timeline is here, with the video in bold:

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/7/28/2042533/-Timeline-for-January-6-insurrection-at-the-Capitol

03:35 PM   Mike Pence   tweet: violence & destruction taking place at the US Capitol Must Stop & it Must Stop Now

03:54 PM   Norwegian Prime Minister Erna Solberg   tweet: Unbelievable scenes from D.C. Responsibility rests on Trump to put a stop to this

04:06 PM   UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson   tweet: Disgraceful scenes in U.S. Congress . should be a peaceful . transfer of power

04:06 PM   Joe Biden   (on television) called for President Trump to end the riot

04:17 PM   TRUMP   video: praised mob & repeated claims of electoral fraud: “We love you. You're very special.” - [This is the video where he told the protestors to go home.]

04:22 PM   Capitol Police chief   makes verbal request to Natl Guard (again) for support

04:23 PM   Capitol Police chief   writes MEMO to Natl Guard seeking help
                              
04:26 PM   Senator Josh Hawley   tweet: violence must end, those who attacked police and broke the law must be prosecuted

04:30 PM   Defense Sec. Chris Miller   call with Pence who asks to “clear the Capitol”                                    
               
04:32 PM   Defense Sec. Chris Miller   orders deployment of Guard      .                              

04:57 PM   New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy   announced New Jersey State Police were being deployed to the District of Columbia   
                                 
04:57 PM   New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy   announced New Jersey National Guard was prepared for deployment if necessary

--

So Trump waited around to tell the protestors to leave, but Joe Biden didn't wait around to call for it to end?

According to this the VP didn't even ask the Defense Secretary to "clear the Capitol" until after Trump had already posted his video.

Quote from: stack
Apparently incorrect:

Republican Rep. Liz Cheney of Wyoming said that it was former Vice President Mike Pence, not former President Donald Trump, who called for the military to defend the U.S. Capitol during the riot.

You should get a better source. Liz Cheney is the anti-trumper who is leading the discredited Jan 6 investigation. Here she is hugging the key witness:

« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 11:31:09 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Trump
« Reply #9585 on: July 04, 2022, 11:15:43 AM »
He did tell them to go home when they were in the building.
Yes he did. So he gets a few points for that.

But that is somewhat offset by the minus one billion points he got for his actions which led to the situation in the first place.
Even when he did tell them to go home he repeated the lie about election fraud. And in a later tweet he called them “great patriots”.

And why were they even there in the first place? Because he'd spent months telling everyone that he'd been cheated out of the election. 74 million people voted for him, so he was effectively telling all of them that they had been cheated. You tell that many people something like that and then organise a rally on the day the votes were being certified and tell them to march to the Capitol then you are completely responsible if that boils over into trouble. Even if he did call for peaceful protest (and there were very mixed messages about that), he knew some of the crowd were armed, he whipped them up by telling them the election had been stolen from him and therefore them and then sent them to march on the Capitol. He didn't exactly hurry himself to tell them to go home when the inevitable happened.

And what was all this for? Because he's a narcissist. He's grown up with no-one saying no to him, he can't get it through his head that he might have lost. So to protect his own fragile ego he caused all of this.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9586 on: July 04, 2022, 01:22:52 PM »
The Republicans defending Trump fall into two categories.

There are the idiots who still believe the election was stolen because they are willfully ignorant. Even though, the creators of the lie are now being revealed as the creators of a lie with an agenda to motivate the micro cephalic dumb-asses to attack their own government in accordance with Putin's agenda. A good example of this is the 'My Pillow' imbecile.

The second category of Republicans are the ones who know this whole stolen election thing is bullshit. But, they also know there is a large segment of the population that is so dim witted and indoctrinated to right-wing, paranoid propaganda that they can be manipulated into anything. They also know that they will get extra election support from Russia if they politically support Russia's attempt to reconstitute the Soviet Union. They don't give a shit about anything other than getting their power.

All those years listening to Republican bullshit about, "AOC is such an extremist!" "Ilhan Omar will trap us with Sharia law!" and now we got freaks like Boebert, Greene and the whole Hee-Haw gang taking over the Republican party. I'm sick of hearing about how they have to protect us from the homosexual agenda. The streets of America are being flooded with cheap accessible guns, we have global virus pandemics and Russians attacking our infrastructure and social media but the Republicans are focused on the threat from drag queens.

I spent years supporting conservatives. Now, I will do everything in my power to stop them.
Fuck Republicans.

BTW: The punchline to the joke is the zombified, right wing freaks telling me that I'm a victim of the lame stream media shaping my world view because I don't believe their stupid shit.
My hate for you and everything you stand for is so much deeper than the depths of Shambala that you could probably take the entire Lungmen population down there and back up around twenty million times before you would have sunk to the end of my hate.



Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9587 on: July 04, 2022, 02:22:52 PM »
Republicans: I'M A FREE THINKER! I never get influenced by MSM!  Oh hey, a new meme from a random facebook page thays says Biden eats babies.  So true... So true!
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Trump
« Reply #9588 on: July 04, 2022, 02:26:57 PM »
Republicans: I'M A FREE THINKER! I never get influenced by MSM!  Oh hey, a new meme from a random facebook page thays says Biden eats babies.  So true... So true!
I have noticed that all the "independent thinkers" seem to believe the same thing...
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9589 on: July 04, 2022, 02:30:48 PM »
Republicans: I'M A FREE THINKER! I never get influenced by MSM!  Oh hey, a new meme from a random facebook page thays says Biden eats babies.  So true... So true!
I have noticed that all the "independent thinkers" seem to believe the same thing...


https://xkcd.com/610/
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9590 on: July 04, 2022, 02:52:54 PM »
the Republicans are focused on the threat from drag queens.

In the UK, we've had drag acts on stage and on TV for decades, without society collapsing in a heap.

Every year, theatres up and down the country stage Christmas pantomime, which routinely includes at least one male performer in drag as the "pantomime dame".

Danny La Rue, Stanley Baxter, Dick Emery, Les Dawson and a host of others were regulars on prime-time Saturday night TV, often appearing in drag.

Harmless fun.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: Trump
« Reply #9591 on: July 04, 2022, 03:26:19 PM »
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline crutonius

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9592 on: July 04, 2022, 04:39:23 PM »

What would have been wrong with Trump wanting to march with the protestors? He didn't tell them to enter the building. When they did he, in fact, put out a video and told them to leave.

Marching with protesters?  Nothing.  Perfectly fine.

Marching with insurrectionists though, different situation.

As for that last part I'm going to go ahead and assume you're trolling me.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9593 on: July 04, 2022, 05:44:42 PM »
I have noticed that all the "independent thinkers" seem to believe the same thing...
Except when they don't, in which case you complain about that too.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline stack

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9594 on: July 04, 2022, 06:38:58 PM »
He did tell them to go home when they were in the building. They were in the building when the video was published. They didn't get inside instantly.

Yes, he published his video hours after when he should have. Why did he wait so long to really call off the patriots and in doing so still peppered in his 'stop the steal' rhetoric and Pence's failing to block the proceedings? Seems like he wanted the mob to do what Pence wouldn't. You know, Sedition. Def: overt conduct, such as speech and organization, that tends toward rebellion against the established order.

According to the timeline you cited:

01:30 PM. Mob make way up Capitol steps; begin entering the Capitol   
04:17 PM   TRUMP video: praised mob & repeated claims of electoral fraud: “We love you. You're very special.”


Yes, short-bus 'special'.

That's 2:45 minutes after the breach. Not to mention all of the mayhem that led up to the breach, gate crashing, wall climbing, bear spray assaulting, hammering, window/door smashing, and spearing:   
1 p.m. - An initial wave of protesters storms the outer police barrier around the Capitol.   

Nearing three hours after the breach and you're like, "They were in the building when the video was published. They didn't get inside instantly." ::)

02:14 PM  Mob arrive on the landing near the office where Pence and his family are hiding

We're still 2 hours away from your Trump video. What's the hold-up?   

02:24 PM. TRUMP tweet [Pence] "didn't have the courage to do what should have been done"

02:26 PM   TRUMP calls Sen. T.Tuberville, told him do more to block counting of electoral votes.                                 

So 10 minutes after the mob is outside Pences's office where he is hiding, Trump tweets out how Mike doesn't have the courage to stop the steal and is calling a lawmaker minutes later to halt the count...

A few minutes later...
02:29 PM. Mob erect gallows on Capitol grounds, shout, “Hang Mike Pence”

02:30 PM. Mob enters Senate chamber   

We're still 1:45 minutes away from the Trump video. What is taking so long?   
                        
According to this the VP didn't even ask the Defense Secretary to "clear the Capitol" until after Trump had already posted his video.

The point is, you claimed, "Actually Trump said that he deployed the National Guard and Federal Law Enforcement."

He didn't.

Quote from: stack
Apparently incorrect:

Republican Rep. Liz Cheney of Wyoming said that it was former Vice President Mike Pence, not former President Donald Trump, who called for the military to defend the U.S. Capitol during the riot.

You should get a better source. Liz Cheney is the anti-trumper who is leading the discredited Jan 6 investigation. Here she is hugging the key witness:



Why should I have a better source? She's a Congresswoman. An authority on the matter. You like authorities on the matter. You are not an authority on the matter. She is.

"Discredited"? By you? Your argument is hugging a key witness discredits the entire proceedings? You'll have to do way better than that I'm afraid.

Re: Trump
« Reply #9595 on: July 04, 2022, 07:26:30 PM »
I have noticed that all the "independent thinkers" seem to believe the same thing...
Except when they don't, in which case you complain about that too.
At a high level a lot of them believe in the same cuckoo conspiracy theories.
And if you're talking about what I think you're talking about then my complaint is merely the apparent lack of effort to get aligned.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9596 on: July 04, 2022, 08:47:13 PM »
And if you're talking about what I think you're talking about then my complaint is merely the apparent lack of effort to get aligned.
What I'm talking about is your desperate attempts to artificially legitimise your complaints about people you disagree with. If they're aligned, that's bad - how dare they think the same thing while claiming they're free thinkers. If they're not aligned - how dare they not have aligned themselves in their free-thinking; clearly they should have done that so I can complain about how aligned they are.

That, of course, is combined with the fact that what's "apparent" to you is severely limited by you never looking in the first place. Not many things are apparent to the blindfolded.

It would be a better look if you were honest about it. You don't like what these people are thinking. And hey, neither do I. But there's nothing more to it than that.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 08:50:45 PM by Pete Svarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9597 on: July 04, 2022, 09:26:50 PM »
What is taking so long?

Likely because some of those early reports were of a single person entering the Capitol building through exit side doors as employees left, or of a single person in the building. When there were numbers of people on the premises the Capitol Police also spent a good while claiming that they had it under control, which is why the Capitol Police did not request help from the National Guard until later on in the timeline. In the timeline the Capitol Police did not request help from the National Guard until after Trump made his video.

CNBC clearly depicts both Joe Biden and Trump issuing their statements almost simultaneously in response to people freely roaming the interior of the building. By your logic Joe Biden was also pro-insurrection.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/06/biden-condemns-riots-at-capitol-calls-on-trump-to-demand-end-to-siege.html
                        


Quote
Why should I have a better source? She's a Congresswoman. An authority on the matter. You like authorities on the matter. You are not an authority on the matter. She is.

"Discredited"? By you? Your argument is hugging a key witness discredits the entire proceedings? You'll have to do way better than that I'm afraid.

Actually her key witness was almost immediately discredited by the secret service.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/29/secret-service-agent-testify-trump-wheel-jan-6

« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 10:07:08 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline honk

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9598 on: July 04, 2022, 10:15:45 PM »
They're prepared to testify, they’re ready to testify, they're totally rearing to testify...but several days later, they still haven't testified, despite having been asked to. These unsourced disputes are little more than FUD until such time as the people involved actually testify.
ur retartet but u donut even no it and i walnut tell u y

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Offline stack

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9599 on: July 04, 2022, 11:22:59 PM »
What is taking so long?

Likely because some of those early reports were of a single person entering the Capitol building through exit side doors as employees left, or of a single person in the building.

What reports are you referring to?


When there were numbers of people on the premises the Capitol Police also spent a good while claiming that they had it under control, which is why the Capitol Police did not request help from the National Guard until later on in the timeline. In the timeline the Capitol Police did not request help from the National Guard until after Trump made his video.

Incorrect. From the timeline you posted, minutes even before Trump ended his speech:

01:09 PM   Capitol Police chief to House & Senate Sergeant at Arms; wants emergency declaration & call in the Guard
01:49 PM   Capitol Police chief makes "frantic" call to Maj. Gen. Walker for Guard citing "dire emergency"

Trumps video was still 2.5 hours away.

CNBC clearly depicts both Joe Biden and Trump issuing their statements almost simultaneously in response to people freely roaming the interior of the building. By your logic Joe Biden was also pro-insurrection.

For one, it was the POTUS’ rally and mob, not Biden’s. Like the mob would listen to the one person who they thought stole the election and the whole reason why they were there.::) Ludicrous logic on your part.
For two, by my logic it took the president elect to prompt DJT to actually do something. Sad that it had to come to that

Actually her key witness was almost immediately discredited by the secret service.

Not discredited yet. She was under oath. When the SS guys go under oath with the threat of perjury, that’s when you get to claim that.