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Messages - JAL

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Flat Earth Theory / Re: Flat Earth at the Beach
« on: June 03, 2020, 11:55:11 AM »
Hi Tom,

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to my post. I’m not sure I understand everything you’ve said but maybe we can talk some more and I can learn.

The Ship
The sea at Whitstable is pretty calm- its on the Thames estuary protected by land on most sides. Hence it is popular for sailing and windsurfing but not for actual surfing - there are no waves big enough. The visibility has been particularly good these past few weeks, across the water to Essex on the other side, and out to the East over the estuary.

Now you say I should go and try it on a calm lake instead. Suppose I agree to do that. How should I know what counts as further than should be possible? That isn't something I can tell with my eyes. I suppose you want me to do some math? Could you lay it out for me?

At the beach I didn't have to do any math. I didn't even have to know the distance to the boat. I just saw the letters on the boat disappear behind the water and then re-appear when I looked from higher up. I had good binoculars and the view was sharp and clear - no funny business. It looked like the boat had gone up over a hill. Only, a hill made of water. Now you want me to trust some math over my own eyes on that?

The Sun
I think I agree with you here - watching the sun appear to move across the sky could lead to the direct conclusion that the sun is moving. That's why I could watch the sun travel across the sky at the beach and easily picture it travelling above the flat surface of the ground. That makes sense as a direct conclusion, just like you say.

But then it went down behind the ground, and you haven't said anything about that part. So if I'm trusting my eyes and drawing direct conclusions, then the sun goes around the earth, doesn’t it? But that isn't what the picture in the Wiki looks like? Why should I trust my eyes that it moves, but not trust my eyes as to where it goes?

The Moon
I’ve said that everywhere I go, I see the same face of the moon. Now you want me to draw the most direct conclusions I can from this. Well, okay, I'll try to do that.

If I saw an 8-ball, like from a pool table, in the sky from my garden this morning, and it looked like the the 8 was facing me, my direct conclusion would be that the ball is facing me. If tomorrow I'm on the other side of town, and I see the same ball, and the 8 is facing me again, then maybe it turned to face me.

If, though, all my friends also saw the 8 ball in the sky at the same time, and my mom and dad at their house across town saw it too, and all of them say they saw the 8 facing them too, what would I think? Well, it must've been facing all of us at the same time, right? That means it must have been far away.

That's my direct observation with my own eyes, and only my friends and parents to help. I don't see how bending light comes into it. And I don't seem to need any bending light to make sense of it.

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Flat Earth Theory / Flat Earth at the Beach
« on: June 02, 2020, 01:26:41 PM »
Yesterday I spent a few hours at the beach in Whitstable, and found myself thinking about some of the things I've read on this forum. 

The Ship
I took a pair of binoculars and looked at a large ship off shore from the deck of the house I was staying in. It had white letters on the side saying COSCO SHIPPING. It occurred to me that that I could attempt to observe the curvature of the earth myself. I didn’t know how far out the ship was, but it seemed worth a shot. I figured if the earth is round, and the ship is far enough, my view of the letters would be obscured from the bottom up. So I walked down to the water's edge, squatted down, and looked out at the ship. The ship was there but the letters were gone. A clear blue line of water, perfectly aligned with the horizon, was cutting off my view of the bottom of the ship's hull. I walked back up the beach, and looked at it again, while standing: the letters were back. Back and forth, several times, crystal clear. Each time I observed from higher up the beach, I could see the ship and read the letters.  Seconds later, from the waters edge, I could see the ship but not the letters.

The Sun
Whitstable is famous for its sunsets. At sunset, I was sat on the deck with a glass of wine watching the sun go down. It didn't appear to shrink, as it might if it was simply moving further away from me, above a flat earth. And then it was progressively obscurred by the earth as it set. It didn't seem to fade away or slowly dissapear, it set downwards into the earth and was blocked by the earth.

The Moon
Nearly full, and beautiful. Of course it looked much like it always does. The same face of the moon was visible to me last night as when I was a child. I've seen it from 5 continents, always the same face.

Can I reconcile these observations with a flat earth? Yes, but not easily. Based on the Wiki accompanying this forum,  I would need to believe:
   ▪ the sinking ship efffect is caused by refraction;
   ▪ the sunset is a combination of perspective, magnification, and electromagnetic acceleration - a mechanism to the universe that pulls, pushes, or deflects light upwards;
   ▪ the nearside of the moon is always visible because of electromagnetic acceleration as well.

Now, I'm not a scientist, so although they seem fishy I can't dismiss any of those claims out of hand. However, in each case, it seems I am being asked to disregard what my eyes are telling me and instead to accept an explanation that is counterintuitive and convoluted based on some science claims on the internet.

Is that really what flat earthers want me to do? I thought the whole point was to trust your senses and and do your own experiments? Based on my eyes and my own observations at the beach, shouldn't I believe the earth is round? What do I do now?

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Flat Earth Theory / Night and Day
« on: June 01, 2020, 02:03:32 PM »
Hi everyone,

According to the Wiki's FAQ the Sun moves in circles around the North Pole. Also according to the FAQ, the light of the sun is confined to a limited area and its light acts like a spotlight upon the Earth.

If that is correct, shouldn't the light cast by the sun fall in a circle? Like a flashlight? Or the spotlights in my house?

Why does the diagram accompanying the explanation use an oval shape? Also, the oval seems to shift or rotate? How can that be?

Thanks,
JAL

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