The Flat Earth Society
Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Lord Dave on November 23, 2017, 02:58:35 PM
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/congressman-told-woman-he-would-report-her-to-capitol-police-if-she-exposed-his-secret-sex-life/2017/11/22/e3345862-cf10-11e7-a1a3-0d1e45a6de3d_story.html?utm_term=.f8036268682f
Gonna say:
Don't care. Sounds to me like he wasn't trying to threaten her, just protect himself.
I hope this doesn't cause him problems.
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(https://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Sex-Clams.jpg)
In more seriousness, though, as long as it's all consensual have as much of a weird sex life as you want. It's all the recent celebrity outings that really suck. If we find out Tom Hanks is a serial rapist I will be shattered
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In today's Western world context I have a totally perverse and weird sexual deviance; I'm a male who only has consensual relations with my wife!
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In today's Western world context I have a totally perverse and weird sexual deviance; I'm a male who only has consensual relations with my wife!
So you have non-conscentual relations with everyone else?
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In today's Western world context I have a totally perverse and weird sexual deviance; I'm a male who only has consensual relations with my wife!
So you have non-conscentual relations with everyone else?
Well only she would consent.......
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In today's Western world context I have a totally perverse and weird sexual deviance; I'm a male who only has consensual relations with my wife!
You crusading conservative you! What a maaaaverick!
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So, the GOP has put their support back for Roy Moor.
This tells me something pretty obvious:
Its not about what you did, who you are, or how many bible verses you speak. Its about what party you belomg to.
Our politics is purely party lines. Don't let the other side win. Make a deal with the devil to keep them from winning. And Alabama will prove it, I think. Family values, Christian values, morality, decency, legality... all of it means nothing if you don't win. So win first. Justify later.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb0JHME4dsg
I don't know. Maybe we should have just let them go their on way in the Civil War. How do you argue with people like that?
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https://www.npr.org/2017/12/08/569475351/roy-moore-accuser-admits-adding-notation-to-yearbook-inscription
Wow...
Girl adds note to the bottom so she knows who that guy is and when he signed it and suddenly she's a liar.
Really?
I mean, I can tell that the date under it is not his penmanship. Why does that suddenly make everything else fake?
My god, you'd think this was Obama's birth certificate all over again with how everyone and their mother is saying everything is now fake.
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If you're a Moore supporter its something. That's all they need to keep denying it.
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If you're a Moore supporter its something. That's all they need to keep denying it.
It underscores the problem with a 2 party system.
No matter how bad your candidate is as a human being, you can't afford to have "The enemy" in office so you go with your party.
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If you're a Moore supporter its something. That's all they need to keep denying it.
It underscores the problem with a 2 party system.
No matter how bad your candidate is as a human being, you can't afford to have "The enemy" in office so you go with your party.
That isn’t a 2 party system problem. That is a general problem humans have with making people in to their enemies.
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If you're a Moore supporter its something. That's all they need to keep denying it.
It underscores the problem with a 2 party system.
No matter how bad your candidate is as a human being, you can't afford to have "The enemy" in office so you go with your party.
That isn’t a 2 party system problem. That is a general problem humans have with making people in to their enemies.
Yes but the more parties you have, the harder it is to have that many enemies. Especially when they start overlapping.
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All parties aside, I find the Moore issue fascinating because the Fundamentalist Evangelicals have been beaten at their own game. In essence, the Left has figured out their Fundamental weakness and is able to use it to their advantage.
When people base their morality on the idea that God gets angry every time they "disobey" their pastors and political leadership, it's an easy trick to convince them that God will be mad if they vote a certain way. For decades, this is how the GOP held their position in the Bible belt. Then, on Sunday before the election, many influential pastors and even some political leaders in the GOP told voters that God wouldn't be able to forgive them if they voted for somebody who turned out to be a criminal (which is a complete joke, considering how many criminals we have elected in the past). And tens of thousands of people bought that lie. We know they bought that lie, because they no-showed at the polls and they wrote-in other names "to keep a clear conscience".
Of course, this weakness would not be so exploitable were it not for Fundamentalism also encouraging the doctrine of "don't think, don't ask questions, just obey". I'm assuming a lot of people still voted for Moore because they did their research and were pretty sure his accusers were lying (which, if you've ever been involved with this kind of scandal before, is usually the case). However, not enough of them voted to trigger the recount, so it's still a lost fight.
I'm sure a lot of people are pointing fingers here and there trying to lay the blame on political reasons, but what I see is a fatal flaw in Evangelical morality that was exploited by the opponent.
The religion that supposedly encourages the "personal relationship with Jesus" does much better to encourage people to just show up on Sunday and never question the authority of their leadership or the validity of their information sources. Personally, I don't think God wants His followers to be that stupid. Maybe this is His way of calling for people to wake up and ditch the false doctrines.
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Can you provide some evidence that it is the case that accusers in sexual scandals are usually lying? It seems like a big claim that should be corroborated.
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In my personal experience, I have seen several male teachers removed from their careers using this tactic. There is never a conviction--the woman merely makes the accusation, and the damage is done. The teacher's union kicks the teacher out without due process and that is the end of it. As for my involvement, I have filed written statements in at least two of these cases, and in one, my friends and I resorted to creating an underground newspaper to expose the teacher's union for what it was doing.
I've also seen this done with church pastors. It's actually a common occurrence. The tactic is to exploit church insurance policies, which are actually quite expensive because of the prevalence of these accusations. Again, no actual legal due process happens; the accusation is made, the insurance company reacts and removes the pastor, and the woman vanishes back into the woodwork. I've never had it happen to me, but I get around in the liturgical circles and have seen this happen several times to other men in my community.
I suppose you'd like names and dates, but in light of the current political climate, don't you think it more poetic if I just made the accusation and left it for people to either believe or ignore based on whether they want their side to win the argument?
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So you don’t know if they are lying then. I gotcha. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want anyone to be condemned as a rapist without some sort of evidence, similarly, I don’t want an accuser labeled as a liar without evidence of lying. Both are wrong.
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Neither of those scenarios are comparable to what happened to Moore. He has nine accusers, not one, and they've offered plenty of corroborating evidence both physically and via witnesses. To believe Moore is innocent means accepting that there must have been some gigantic, unfeasible conspiracy pitted against him, which I don't believe most reasonable people would do. Far from actually researching the case, I'm sure that most of his voters simply turned a blind eye.
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In my personal experience, I have seen several male teachers removed from their careers using this tactic. There is never a conviction--the woman merely makes the accusation, and the damage is done. The teacher's union kicks the teacher out without due process and that is the end of it. As for my involvement, I have filed written statements in at least two of these cases, and in one, my friends and I resorted to creating an underground newspaper to expose the teacher's union for what it was doing.
I've also seen this done with church pastors. It's actually a common occurrence. The tactic is to exploit church insurance policies, which are actually quite expensive because of the prevalence of these accusations. Again, no actual legal due process happens; the accusation is made, the insurance company reacts and removes the pastor, and the woman vanishes back into the woodwork. I've never had it happen to me, but I get around in the liturgical circles and have seen this happen several times to other men in my community.
I suppose you'd like names and dates, but in light of the current political climate, don't you think it more poetic if I just made the accusation and left it for people to either believe or ignore based on whether they want their side to win the argument?
Then you work at a shitty school.
In MY personal experience,this has never happened. Hell, I had a student use the old "Do guys think about sex every 10 seconds" bit on me. It failed cause I'm not an idiot.
Also, are you seriously comparing a bunch of teenagers to grown, mature women and using that to paint every god damn accuser? Really?
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In my personal experience, I have seen several male teachers removed from their careers using this tactic. There is never a conviction--the woman merely makes the accusation, and the damage is done. The teacher's union kicks the teacher out without due process and that is the end of it. As for my involvement, I have filed written statements in at least two of these cases, and in one, my friends and I resorted to creating an underground newspaper to expose the teacher's union for what it was doing.
I've also seen this done with church pastors. It's actually a common occurrence. The tactic is to exploit church insurance policies, which are actually quite expensive because of the prevalence of these accusations. Again, no actual legal due process happens; the accusation is made, the insurance company reacts and removes the pastor, and the woman vanishes back into the woodwork. I've never had it happen to me, but I get around in the liturgical circles and have seen this happen several times to other men in my community.
I suppose you'd like names and dates, but in light of the current political climate, don't you think it more poetic if I just made the accusation and left it for people to either believe or ignore based on whether they want their side to win the argument?
Then you work at a shitty school.
In MY personal experience,this has never happened. Hell, I had a student use the old "Do guys think about sex every 10 seconds" bit on me. It failed cause I'm not an idiot.
Also, are you seriously comparing a bunch of teenagers to grown, mature women and using that to paint every god damn accuser? Really?
Where did I say I worked in the school? The first time I saw this happen, I was a student. I didn't realize how organized the teacher's union was until after I saw them pull the same stunt a second time, but I also suspect them for poisoning me at the very end of the 8th grade (during finals week so I'd flunk) and "modifying" my school records in my senior year in high school so that...again...I'd flunk (which I didn't.) Very organized.
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In my personal experience, I have seen several male teachers removed from their careers using this tactic. There is never a conviction--the woman merely makes the accusation, and the damage is done. The teacher's union kicks the teacher out without due process and that is the end of it. As for my involvement, I have filed written statements in at least two of these cases, and in one, my friends and I resorted to creating an underground newspaper to expose the teacher's union for what it was doing.
I've also seen this done with church pastors. It's actually a common occurrence. The tactic is to exploit church insurance policies, which are actually quite expensive because of the prevalence of these accusations. Again, no actual legal due process happens; the accusation is made, the insurance company reacts and removes the pastor, and the woman vanishes back into the woodwork. I've never had it happen to me, but I get around in the liturgical circles and have seen this happen several times to other men in my community.
I suppose you'd like names and dates, but in light of the current political climate, don't you think it more poetic if I just made the accusation and left it for people to either believe or ignore based on whether they want their side to win the argument?
Then you work at a shitty school.
In MY personal experience,this has never happened. Hell, I had a student use the old "Do guys think about sex every 10 seconds" bit on me. It failed cause I'm not an idiot.
Also, are you seriously comparing a bunch of teenagers to grown, mature women and using that to paint every god damn accuser? Really?
Where did I say I worked in the school? The first time I saw this happen, I was a student. I didn't realize how organized the teacher's union was until after I saw them pull the same stunt a second time, but I also suspect them for poisoning me at the very end of the 8th grade (during finals week so I'd flunk) and "modifying" my school records in my senior year in high school so that...again...I'd flunk (which I didn't.) Very organized.
Wow. I guess this says it all as far as the legitimacy of your anecdotal evidence is concerned.
Wow.
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In my personal experience, I have seen several male teachers removed from their careers using this tactic. There is never a conviction--the woman merely makes the accusation, and the damage is done. The teacher's union kicks the teacher out without due process and that is the end of it. As for my involvement, I have filed written statements in at least two of these cases, and in one, my friends and I resorted to creating an underground newspaper to expose the teacher's union for what it was doing.
I've also seen this done with church pastors. It's actually a common occurrence. The tactic is to exploit church insurance policies, which are actually quite expensive because of the prevalence of these accusations. Again, no actual legal due process happens; the accusation is made, the insurance company reacts and removes the pastor, and the woman vanishes back into the woodwork. I've never had it happen to me, but I get around in the liturgical circles and have seen this happen several times to other men in my community.
I suppose you'd like names and dates, but in light of the current political climate, don't you think it more poetic if I just made the accusation and left it for people to either believe or ignore based on whether they want their side to win the argument?
Then you work at a shitty school.
In MY personal experience,this has never happened. Hell, I had a student use the old "Do guys think about sex every 10 seconds" bit on me. It failed cause I'm not an idiot.
Also, are you seriously comparing a bunch of teenagers to grown, mature women and using that to paint every god damn accuser? Really?
Where did I say I worked in the school? The first time I saw this happen, I was a student. I didn't realize how organized the teacher's union was until after I saw them pull the same stunt a second time, but I also suspect them for poisoning me at the very end of the 8th grade (during finals week so I'd flunk) and "modifying" my school records in my senior year in high school so that...again...I'd flunk (which I didn't.) Very organized.
So your entire anecdotal evidence is based from a Student standpoint? Wow... Yeah, you have no idea what went on then. Also, making kids flunk is bad since it lowers the school's overall passing numbers and, thanks to NCLB, will cause problems for both teachers and administeators. So while possible, the motive has to be greater than "I hate that guy". Especially since it a teacher hates you, usually they want you out of their lives quickly.
But please, do explain how they 'poisoned' you (or why make you flunk) and what modifications they made and how you know.
Also country and state (if america) would be helpful.
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Let's just say that I had a family member who worked at the same school I attended, and I'm smart enough not to name them or explain all the connections that make sense of my "wacko"-sounding explanations.
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Let's just say that I had a family member who worked at the same school I attended, and I'm smart enough not to name them or explain all the connections that make sense of my "wacko"-sounding explanations.
Sure, let's just say that, why not?
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Ecch, yes he's a hypocrite, but when it comes to this issue he's right (except when he's guilty of it himself of course).
This #metoo movement is destroying lives, sometimes unfairly (Did Aziz Ansari really deserve to have his career ruined over what was alleged of him? Louis CK?), and usually with nothing but the word of the accuser(s) as support of the allegations.
The climate right now, being pushed by the Media, is poisonous. Anybody could pay any woman to accuse any of their political enemies of sexual misconduct, and unless you treat the person being accused as a monster, you are looked on as part of the problem. The pushback is immediate. Careers are lost, relationships ruined. If five months down the road the accuser admits she's lying, or was exaggerating, it doesn't even matter. The damage is already done.
All it takes is one person to accuse someone of sexual misconduct and that's it, their life is over. Over nothing more than an accusation. That's poisonous and dangerous and pretty much the definition of a witch hunt.
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But that's been that way for a long time. It's just getting media attention.
And it's always polarized.
You either get 0 attention and no one gives a shit about the accusation or you get a lot and everyone cares.
And it's hard to know who is or isn't lying because of the nature of the crime. Sometimes you have evidence, most of the time you don't. Most of the time you don't bother reporting it because you don't think anyone will believe you or care since in most cases it's your word against theirs.
Either way, you're fucked.
BUT...
I'd like to point out that Trump was accused by 14 women and he still got elected so it's not an instant career killer.
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Aziz Ansari's career hasn't been destroyed. He's going to bounce back from this just fine. Most of the people impacted by this will be fine. There's no way to say this without sounding like a conspiratard, but Hollywood just offered up Weinstein as a sacrifice. They don't care about any of these allegations.
And yeah, Louis CK absolutely deserved to have his career destroyed for what he did. I'm a little concerned that you'd mention him as an example of somebody being disproportionately punished. Of course, he'll probably have a triumphant comeback tour in a few years.
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Yeah Aziz Ansari was actually the first case in the movement where there was significant and well-reasoned push back against the allegations. I expect Samantha Bee to be totally incapable of nuance on the topic but most media outlets put the brakes on crucifying him. I’m not convinced that Louis CK deserves the same treatment as Kevin Spacey or Harvey Weinstein though.
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Louis CK admitted he was a creep from memory?
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Louis CK admitted he was a creep from memory?
Yeah and no one alleged he assaulted them, just that he exposed himself inappropriately and made unwelcome advances. Still wrong, but definitely different than Spacey, Weinstein, et al. So perhaps he shouldn’t have to give up his life?
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Or, Weinstein et al should be facing far greater sanctions than the likes of LCK
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Or, Weinstein et al should be facing far greater sanctions than the likes of LCK
Perhaps that too.
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Louis CK is a creep, no doubt. A lot of men are creeps. A lot. Just being a creep is not criminal, and it shouldn't be enough to lose your career over.
But it's the fact that these people are often being judged based on nothing more than an accusation that bugs me about all of this. That's what makes this a witch hunt. I find it extremely unsettling. We should be better than this.
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Louis CK is a creep, no doubt. A lot of men are creeps. A lot. Just being a creep is not criminal, and it shouldn't be enough to lose your career over.
But it's the fact that these people are often being judged based on nothing more than an accusation that bugs me about all of this. That's what makes this a witch hunt. I find it extremely unsettling. We should be better than this.
Yes but how do you figure if it's accurate or not?
Even if every woman is telling the truth, how do you prove it if there are no witnesses?
And even if you go through court, that takes years. So basically the ONLY solution is to not report on it. And I'm not sure that's such a good idea.
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Louis CK is a creep, no doubt. A lot of men are creeps. A lot. Just being a creep is not criminal, and it shouldn't be enough to lose your career over.
But it's the fact that these people are often being judged based on nothing more than an accusation that bugs me about all of this. That's what makes this a witch hunt. I find it extremely unsettling. We should be better than this.
Yes but how do you figure if it's accurate or not?
Even if every woman is telling the truth, how do you prove it if there are no witnesses?
And even if you go through court, that takes years. So basically the ONLY solution is to not report on it. And I'm not sure that's such a good idea.
It's not up to the media to judge these people. That they have taken it upon themselves to do so anyway is the problem. They are not merely reporting that women are making these accusations, they are ceaselessly editorializing, and they are demonizing anyone who calls them out for it. Unless you think (today's accused) is a monster, you are yourself a monster, proof of any actual wrongdoing be damned. With as much influence as the media has, this is irresponsible, and scary.
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Louis CK is a creep, no doubt. A lot of men are creeps. A lot. Just being a creep is not criminal, and it shouldn't be enough to lose your career over.
Exposing yourself to and jerking off in front of unconsenting women is not normal, not commonplace, and absolutely is criminal. C.K. has done this several times to multiple different women over the course of many years. He's not just a creep, he's a sex pest. Are you really, really using this guy as your example of someone who deserves lenience?
We should be better than this.
The irony.
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Louis CK is a creep, no doubt. A lot of men are creeps. A lot. Just being a creep is not criminal, and it shouldn't be enough to lose your career over.
Exposing yourself to and jerking off in front of unconsenting women is not normal, not commonplace, and absolutely is criminal. C.K. has done this several times to multiple different women over the course of many years. He's not just a creep, he's a sex pest. Are you really, really using this guy as your example of someone who deserves lenience?
We should be better than this.
The irony.
From what I've been able to find he never forced himself on anyone, he just made some women feel uncomfortable. I'm sorry but it's a far cry from rape, and at least some of his accusers should have expected it, seeing as they were accompanying him to his hotel room. It's just silly to say he really did anything wrong.
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no one has a constitutional right to be liked
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Louis CK is a creep, no doubt. A lot of men are creeps. A lot. Just being a creep is not criminal, and it shouldn't be enough to lose your career over.
Exposing yourself to and jerking off in front of unconsenting women is not normal, not commonplace, and absolutely is criminal. C.K. has done this several times to multiple different women over the course of many years. He's not just a creep, he's a sex pest. Are you really, really using this guy as your example of someone who deserves lenience?
We should be better than this.
The irony.
From what I've been able to find he never forced himself on anyone, he just made some women feel uncomfortable. I'm sorry but it's a far cry from rape, and at least some of his accusers should have expected it, seeing as they were accompanying him to his hotel room. It's just silly to say he really did anything wrong.
The hotel room incident involved Dana Min Goodman and Julia Wolov, a professional comedy duo who had met C.K. after they had performed at a comedy festival. They weren't groupies, and they weren't there to have sex with him.
As to the rest of it, well, all I can say is that I very strongly disagree, and I imagine that most people would too.
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In many of these cases, though, it isn't just one woman's word against a poor defenceless man, there are often multiple accusations and circumstantial evidence. Look at the investigation that was held into that fake accusation that was made against Roy Moore in order to discredit the rest of his accusers - a journalist looked into the woman's story and realised it didn't add up, so they didn't report on it as an accusation.
It doesn't help these men that their defence is often so transparently weak. "Err, ahh, I certainly don't remember doing that..."
Do they deserve to lose their careers - well that really depends on their employers, doesn't it?
From what I've been able to find he never forced himself on anyone, he just made some women feel uncomfortable. I'm sorry but it's a far cry from rape, and at least some of his accusers should have expected it, seeing as they were accompanying him to his hotel room. It's just silly to say he really did anything wrong.
Jesus Christ... do we really need to go into why somebody - especially someone who has the dominant position in a power imbalance - making sexual advances towards someone without their consent is wrong? And 'they should have expected it'? Even if that were the case when it clearly isn't, how does that mitigate what he did?
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Exposing yourself to and jerking off in front of unconsenting women is not normal, not commonplace, and absolutely is criminal. C.K. has done this several times to multiple different women over the course of many years. He's not just a creep, he's a sex pest. Are you really, really using this guy as your example of someone who deserves lenience?
Didn't he ask first though? Most of the women said he asked first and they thought it was a joke so responded like "okay.."
“At the time, I said to myself that what I did was okay because I never showed a woman my dick without asking first, which is also true,” - Louis C.K. but also backed up by the women who came forward. And while I get it's an abuse of power or at least extremely inappropriate, he still asked and that makes it less horrible imo.
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I think there was another case where he was on the phone with a writer and just started masturbating and told her.
That being said, I think everyone agrees that the MeToo movement is a positive thing as long as it doesn’t turn in to every man accused having his life shattered. So far almost every case has seemed fairly just to me. Louis CK could very well make a comeback, we don’t know right now. The media worked out the Aziz Ansari case and it settled right around where it should. The woman who is credited with creating the movement along with many other feminists have voiced many of the same concerns that have been written here, so I think this will all turn out for the better.
Of course there will be idiots who will tweet, “Some guy told me I was cute. #MeToo”, but they will be a minority and there will also be liars, but they too will almost surely be a minority. Let’s just take a moment in history unfold and learn what we can.
PS This conversation maybe needs to be split off or merged in to the Sex Scandals thread.
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PS This conversation maybe needs to be split off or merged in to the Sex Scandals thread.
Agree. Done.
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https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/louis-cks-path-a-comeback-runs-comedy-clubs-1100976
See, the groundwork is already being laid for C.K.'s redemption. Let's all take solace in the fact that his punishment for his years of sexual predation won't be too severe. ::)
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Skip to 3.30 for a confession of sorts...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fhBisiMIv2Y
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If you're a Moore supporter its something. That's all they need to keep denying it.
It underscores the problem with a 2 party system.
No matter how bad your candidate is as a human being, you can't afford to have "The enemy" in office so you go with your party.
Exactly! That's why I supported 2016 Green party candidate Dr Jill Stein. The lesser of two evils is a logical fallacy. And the two parties of the USA actually work together to keep third parties down. They ignore rank choice voting, set up next-to-impossible criteria for parties to be eligible for campaign funding and ballot access, and they control the televised debates and makes it almost impossible for third party candidates to participate in the debates. I personally believe that the two parties are two sides of the same coin that are controlled by the elite class.
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https://variety.com/2018/biz/news/louis-c-k-performs-first-stand-up-set-since-harassment-allegations-1202918581/
And he's back. It hasn't been even a year of inactivity for him, but he's ready to just pick up the pieces and resume his career. I'm not trying to jeer about how I told you so (I didn't even tell you so, as this is far sooner than I expected), but stress the point that the #metoo movement is not destroying lives and ending careers, and that we are far, far from the point where we need to be worrying about excessive punishment for the abusive behavior of powerful men.
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What do you think about Asia Argento?
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https://variety.com/2018/biz/news/louis-c-k-performs-first-stand-up-set-since-harassment-allegations-1202918581/
And he's back. It hasn't been even a year of inactivity for him, but he's ready to just pick up the pieces and resume his career. I'm not trying to jeer about how I told you so (I didn't even tell you so, as this is far sooner than I expected), but stress the point that the #metoo movement is not destroying lives and ending careers, and that we are far, far from the point where we need to be worrying about excessive punishment for the abusive behavior of powerful men.
I am glad he is back. He shouldn't have taken so much time off in the first place. But you pretending to be offended that he wasn't cast away forever is pretty entertaining.
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I am pretty sure he will never get an HBO deal again.