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Messages - Tumeni

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2341
Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« on: April 29, 2018, 07:53:45 AM »
We have no idea about all of the details of your experiment. What brand of tools and what methods were done to ensure accuracy?

We have no idea about details of experiments, info on brand of tools and methods in ENaG, beyond the word 'clinometer'.

2342
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: satellite hoax
« on: April 29, 2018, 07:46:48 AM »
These objects could very well be balloons that NASA routinely deploys into the atmosphere in order to give viewers the impression that satellites are real.

Hogwash. Balloons don't behave like that. If they were balloons, they would not stick to defined paths. They would be at the mercy of wind and weather.



Also,

http://sgf.rgo.ac.uk/



.... and why is it always and only about NASA, when most of the satellite launches in the past, and upcoming, are/were non-NASA craft?

... and, as I posted elsewhere;

There are a host of independent operators who track these craft.
There's a satellite industry in most all civilised countries of the world.
You can buy the radio amateur equipment to listen in to transmissions from the ISS as it goes by.
You can hire/buy your own satellite uplink/downlink truck, in pretty much any locale of the world.
You can buy/rent a portable satellite rig, such as that used by remote news gathering crews, and buy/rent airtime on comms satellites to transmit whatever you want to a remote location elsewhere.
You can buy tracking telescopes, which can track moving satellites across the sky for you.
You can photograph the geostationary satellites with the most basic consumer-grade cameras.
etc
etc

2343
It's a start. I would like to see more people question what they're told about the earth 's shape.

Why? Humankind is now up to 70 years' worth of launching orbital craft around our planet.

You can't have an orbit without an orb, globe or sphere to orbit around

2344
Flat Earth Theory / Re: The "Google Maps background"
« on: April 28, 2018, 11:27:45 PM »
There's a decently-high resolution version at

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/iss_chronology_flights.html



"A view of the ISS at the conclusion of the STS-133 mission on March 7, 2011, captures European ATV-2 (bottom) and Japanese HTV2 (center) cargo ships docked at the outpost."



2345
Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« on: April 28, 2018, 11:17:39 PM »
... involved setting up markers of a known height a far distance apart from each other and placing your eye at the level of the first marker and seeing that the horizon was lined up with it.

Do you assert that this method is ... better? more accurate? something else? ... than the U-shaped pipes with coloured water?

An experiment of this sort is far better than one which relies on calibrating devices and careful leveling.

How did R determine his markers were at the known height and distances without "calibration"

2346
After 12 years of Cold War starting at the end of WWII (and also before then), and constant rocket failure to get into orbit, the US was able to get Explorer 1 into orbit within 3 months of Sputnick.

So, you accept that Explorer 1 did actually get into orbit, and that Sputnik did, too?

2347
Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« on: April 28, 2018, 10:10:03 PM »
An off-the-cuff or hand-held surveying demo is not going to cut it. The tolerances are extremely sensitive, and there are many ways it can be wrong. Slight angles and positions and incorrect device calibration will create different results.

Once you have something that is actually irrefutable to FET, let us know, so we can shut down this website.

So does that shed doubt on the flat-earthers' claim that the horizon always rises to eye-level, then, since all examples of illustrating this seem to also rely on hand-held cameras and off-the-cuff measures?

Or do you have access to better equipment than the globe-earthers? If so, what is it?

2348
Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« on: April 28, 2018, 10:07:23 PM »
Water flows down hill.

So .... how does that effect the two linked columns of water? Are you suggesting the farther away one will settle to be lower than the nearer? You suggest that would lead to the sight line along the two pointing downward?

How do we know that water was perfectly leveled out at the point of the line ups?

You can see stationary water in both.

The hand held camera's slight up down motion, in line with the black line of the water in the foreground affects the scene significantly in the far background, even if it is a pixel.

Everything needs to be perfectly leveled and aligned, and this water device is insufficient.

Name a 'sufficient' device, then

Furthermore, on a mountain or large hill, how do you know that the true horizon hasn't disappeared into an atmospheric fog that you can't see, thousands of miles away from you, and is squished beyond imperceptibility? This is clearly what happens when you get to high altitudes like from an international flight. The horizon is very foggy. What makes you think that the same is not true at lower altitudes, but the disappearance is more squished into the horizon by perspective?

Surely such a fog would affect globe earthers and flat earthers equally, such that the flat earthers would also have their claim thrown into doubt?

2349
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Communication Satellites
« on: April 28, 2018, 09:45:22 AM »
Their nature has not been determined.

Humankind has been launching orbital craft, from all parts of the world, since 1957.

There are a host of independent operators who track these craft.
There's a satellite industry in most all civilised countries of the world.
You can buy the radio amateur equipment to listen in to transmissions from the ISS as it goes by.
You can hire/buy your own satellite uplink/downlink truck, in pretty much any locale of the world.
You buy a portable satellite rig, such as that used by remote news gathering crews, and buy/rent airtime on comms satellites to transmit whatever you want to a remote location elsewhere.
You can buy tracking telescopes, which can track moving satellites across the sky for you.
You can photograph the geostationary satellites with the most basic consumer-grade cameras.
etc
etc

2350
It's not the same side of the physical world. The earth needs to be lit from the same side side as in starts in the diagram.

For why? To satisfy what rule?

2351
The illuminated portion can't turn 365.24 times on a diagram that illustrates the earth going around the sun to its same spot on the oval path.

Once more; the diagrams are an approximation, not an exactness.

They represent a high-level indication of what is going on, not the exact data relating to the scenario.

2352
Typo, clearly.

It should read: There cannot be full solar days in a 365.24 solar day year. There cannot be.

(It read, originally; "The earth can't rotate 24 Solar Days in a  365.24 Solar Day Year")


Wow, that's some typo.

2353
The problem seems to be ....

The earth can't rotate 24 Solar Days in a  365.24 Solar Day Year.

Time to call a halt, Tom, when you can't even muster the right figures.

24 days is less than a month.
365 calendar days in a year, 366 in a leap year
365.24 days in a tropical year

2354
Okay I’m calling a halt to this, now.

This non -argument was pretty much wrapped at the end of the first page, Tumeni doing much of the lifting work, by the time GG, Macarios, the tree Rat, AATW and others had weighed in it was finished.

...

Do a wind-up statement as concise as possible and leave him, and for your own sanity as well as mine resist all enticements to return.

I tired to do that with reply #10, but ...

Hundreds upon thousands of astronomers and others in related disciplines have looked at the relative motions of Sun, Earth and Moon over hundreds, or thousands of years.

Their work has been distilled into hundreds, possibly thousands of textbooks, and many of them have used optical instruments and high-level maths in preference to napkins and simple arithmetic.

Rather than using a school-level diagram as your starting point, why not start with a trip to your local library, and peruse some of these textbooks? Rather than using a napkin, look at what astronomers have used, and still use, for their empirical observations.

Why should I/we indulge you, and explain this in great detail, when it has already been detailed?

Your go-to response is to refer globe-earthers to one book, and one book only - ENaG.   I refer you to hundreds, possibly thousands, which deal with this matter. Surely you won't conclude that you're right, and they're all wrong?

2355
Start the 24 hour clock on the September Equinox point where it is 12PM Solar Noon at the point of the Equinox and it will end on ~6PM after one Solar Year. Why would it not stop at 12PM if you are in the same position on the earth's orbit around the sun, as per the diagrams?

.. because the diagrams are an approximation, not an exactness.

Work through the data for each day from 1 - 182.5 and calculate the angles, as per the diagram in the first few pages (EDIT - Reply #135, and in the Wikipedia page for Solar Time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_time)), which illustrated the sidereal day. See what happens when you work with actual data, not high-level illustrations.

 

2356
The equinox doesn't happen at the same time every year. Boom, mystery solved. That's what we've been telling you this whole time. If the September equinox of 2023 happens on the 20th, at solar noon local time, the September equinox of 2024 happens on the 20th at around 18:00 local time. It does not occur at solar noon year to year at any location on Earth, and it would be an extraordinary coincidence if it did.

AND, Tom, to go back to your diagram on the first page, it shows the equinoxes and solstices on two possible days in each instance.

Please consider why.

2357
Dude the SpaceX footage is fake ...

Which footage? The Falcon Heavy / Tesla? Something else?

2358
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: NASA Live Stream
« on: April 26, 2018, 08:45:16 AM »
You'd agree that the YouGov poll covered an exclusively American base, though, wouldn't you ... ?

2359
See the diagram above. The Solar Day has to be the same when the earth returns back to the same Equinox point in relation to the sun. It's looking at the sun at the same position.

The diagrams you cite here, and at the beginning of the thread, are both approximations, not exactnesses (!).

They're intended to show a high-level, general principle of how things work. They have no data, they are merely illustrative. I'll say that again - they have no low-level data (numbers 'n' stuff). 

For actual data, you need to look at astronomical textbooks, papers, journals, etc. and see how astronomers of the past figured this stuff out from first principles and their observations.

 I'm sure the data, from year upon year upon year of actual observation, is out there to be found, but you won't find it from skimming webpages and lifting diagrams from those pages intended for student or general public audiences.

It will be in the work done by astronomers of university level or beyond. You may need to do some groundwork to find it. It will most likely be in real books, in libraries, and you may need to expend some effort to find it, including asking librarians to retrieve little-used tomes from dusty, remote archives. 

Are you willing to do this?

Or is it truly beyond the scope of the 30 mins per day that you devote to this field? If so, just say so.

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2360
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: NASA Live Stream
« on: April 26, 2018, 08:16:38 AM »
It's the intellectual equivalent of believing in what Uri Geller is telling us because he totally showed us his abilities.

No, it isn't. Geller has never controlled an illusion viewable by the whole wide world, repeatedly, every 90 minutes, over a number of years. Not only does the ISS appear on schedule, bang on time, every time, but it also never fails to show up, and can sometimes e seen twice in one evening. It shows no deviation of course from that published in advance. It shows no behaviour that would suggest it to be an illusion, trick, or something other than an orbital craft orbiting at roughly 17k mph.

If it were an illusion, it would be an absolutely miraculous one.




And shouting "FAKE!" at everything which doesn't fit your world view doesn't make you inquisitive, it's just denial.
It's a good thing I'm not doing that, then.

.. you must admit, though, there are plenty of your fellow members and believers outwith this society who do.


And you really need to stop conflating a growth in interest in the society (which is mostly people pointing and laughing) with growth in the society itself.
Perhaps you need to stop assuming that you have a better insight into the growth of the Flat Earth movement than members of the movement itself? Again, your thoughts and feelings are extremely insignificant in this case, since you're hardly in touch with many FE'ers.

Do you have membership numbers, growth rates, or any other stats?

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