[Pete Svarrior]

I just stumbled upon this article by Beau Dure, and I found it to be quite an interesting read. In short, he outlines the recent fracturing of the FE community (including our own schism - I believe this is the first mainstream media article that managed to not only not conflate us, but actually bring up the history of our split and the stagnant reunification proposal).

I was wondering what your view is on the points raised - do you think that this kind of decentralisation of the movement is a bad thing? Or perhaps it serves as an opportunity for ideas to develop independently? Should we be concerned?

As a side note: while I obviously appreciate comments from Round Earthers and Flat Earthers alike, I would like to ask everyone to refrain from arguing the shape of the Earth in this thread. I'm hoping to start the discussion on the community at large, regardless of whether or not its ideas are right.

[Pongo]

I would argue that our schism has made the community stronger as a whole.  Without tfes.org giving long-time users a usable alternative, I believe that many would have quit the society altogether.  Even Dubay has increased traffic on both sites.  How many times have you seen a post on our sites start with, "I went to Dubay's page and was banned..."? 

At it's heart, The Flat Earth Society is a personal journey one takes that challenges the institutions of learning in modern society.  As such, people find their own reasons for belief that they cling to rather than following a set gospel that all followers must adhere to.

I don't think that the many different societies are bad, I would pose that it actually shows a growing decent against modern science and the axioms it takes for granted.

[juner]

That was a good read. I've really never given much credence to FE groups outside of this one and the other site. I think decentralization for now is good. It helps to separate what I consider the fringe of movement (Dubay, for example), but that is only my opinion. I am really disappointed in the stagnant (failed) merger. It would be a lot better for the community if that would have been successful. I try to go over there occasionally and it is abysmally slow still, bordering on unusable. I think all we can do is move forward.

I never have thought much about how the outside world views the community until recently. It used to be just a group of us that few paid attention to. But, the increased popularity and media coverage makes me think how the community may be viewed by an outsider, whether a believer or not. That is where I think having a more centralized community would be better long term, because we are undoubtedly going to be lumped in to one group anyway by many, even though our views differ greatly.

[Thork]

The idea is central. Earth is flat. The scism you choose to follow depends on what goes with that.

You want to follow Dubay? You need to deal with his narcissism and anti-Semitism.
Want to follow Daniel? You need to be prepared that he'll disappear for 2 years at a time and your movement is going to struggle to move forward.
You want to come here? Well you need to realise it has a strong social community that might not be as interested in answering questions about earth's shape as arguing whether Milly Cyrus has the AIDS?

It isn't a bad thing. No one owns earth's shape, the idea it could be flat or the history behind that. I don't think we are looking to take over the world and get everyone to see it as we do. So do we care if others misrepresent it? Or use it for pushing extreme political agendas? Not really. If people are interested in the concept, see it elsewhere and end up here, who really cares?

[andruszkow]

To me, it depends on what the movement wants to achieve. If the goal is to offer knowledge to the individual, then I see no problem that there's fractions everywhere. A belief in  FE would become a personal achievement of knowledge.

On the other hand, if the aim is to bust FET out as common knowledge to everybody, then it's bad news. In my opinion, this is what the various fractions must agree on first : What's the end game? A fractions community does not stand a chance being regarded as serious to the public.

A lot can be said about Eric Dubay. The guy is dedicated, but to me, and probably many others, he appears to have mental issues. Of all FET material out there, his 200 proofs that the earth is not a globe book is probably the worst, and IFERS as a whole is the most aggressive,  hostile,  closed-circle narrow minded community I've ever experienced.

[Thork]

Eric Dubay is a dick.

Yeah, we know. 

[juner]

Eric Dubay is a dick.

Yeah, we know. 

Says Thork now; let us not forget this gem... http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=2386.0

Anyway, back on topic please.

[Thork]

Eric Dubay is a dick.

Yeah, we know. 

Says Thork now; let us not forget this gem... http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=2386.0

Anyway, back on topic please.

You can't throw that in and then say back on topic, no comebacks. Yes, I saw his first few videos. I could not know at that time what he'd be like. I merely broached the question.

Anyway, Dubay is on topic. We are discussing factions of TFES and his is one of them that was mentioned in the article.

[ClaireSmythe]

The fracturing helps. Different sites end up directed towards different purposes. IFERS was far more focused on the conspiracy aspect of some Flat Earth models, youtubers get the word out and encourage interest, and forums provide a place for discussion and the development of models: while forums like this provide a place to socialize as well.
I don't see what benefit centralizing would give. We have everything we need, and we have the freedom needed to develop.

When the best flat earth model is determined, then a core would be useful: but we will only reach that stage with the freedom needed for people to think, and get the word out.

[Thork]

I found a new flat earth community a while ago. Well I say community.

Below is a link to a very nice looking flat earth site.
http://ifers.co.uk/

However the forums are a mess. There is a bot that has opened a thread and posted over 10,000 times in its thread.
http://flatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=e9c6cc0a480433da2e5637b33afcce31&topic=17577.11070

The guy is asking for money, donations and paypal though. I don't really like to see the monetising of the TFES, but people are going to do it so not much can be done about it.

[Roundy]

Personally I like that there are so many Flat Earth groups out there, I think someone else brought it up but it bears repeating; even the nutters like Dubay are bringing wider recognition to the Flat Earth movement as a whole, and on the whole, I think that's a good thing.

Also, drama is interesting.  If some FEers want to claim other FEers are deliberate shills from the government (for example), it adds a soap opera element that might make some people more likely to follow what's going on.  For a while, the movement felt stagnant.  Now it feels vibrant and alive.

[Rayzor]

The flat earth community is gaining converts at the expense of quality,  the typical youtube flat earther has seen a few youtube videos and finds something that resonates with his/her mindset without much real knowledge of the flat earth theory.   This forum and this group,  is probably the only repository of "real" flat earth knowledge and theory,  but appears to be doing nothing to educate the new converts.

Where are the quality flat earth youtube videos,  has anyone here ever made one?  The knowledge is here, but hiding behind the club doors.

I'd like to see Tom Bishop,  or Sandokhan make a few videos,  add a video section to the wiki.

[Thork]

The flat earth community is gaining converts at the expense of quality,  the typical youtube flat earther has seen a few youtube videos and finds something that resonates with his/her mindset without much real knowledge of the flat earth theory.   This forum and this group,  is probably the only repository of "real" flat earth knowledge and theory,  but appears to be doing nothing to educate the new converts.

Where are the quality flat earth youtube videos,  has anyone here ever made one?  The knowledge is here, but hiding behind the club doors.

I'd like to see Tom Bishop,  or Sandokhan make a few videos,  add a video section to the wiki.

That is the reason I originally suggested partnering with Dubay before we found out he was unhinged. We know far more about flat earth theory. We lack the ability to generate engaging content. I also spoke with Mark Sargent and suggested I might secretly give him flat earth proofs and historical insight and let him make the videos and gain the hits. To his credit he said he wanted to make his own voyage of discovery. I could have saved him several years and told him where to look, but he'd rather go it alone. I still enjoy his videos but he makes mistakes and they are the things sceptics pick up on.

[gotham]

To secure a claim of legitimacy, we originate a process deeming all groups claiming relevance to FET recognize Daniel’s ownership of everything TFES, for all the right reasons. 

Daniel is brought into negotiations and, because the future of TFES is paramount, he recognizes that guidance by the Zetetic Council is a prudent way to establish a controlling entity for TFES.

Our two orgs discuss how the inner workings of the Zetetic Council can best influence Society interests. 

Daniel writes a manifesto similar to:

“As the legitimate and recognized President of any and all organizations claiming formation and association as The Flat Earth Society (“The Society”), I hereby command the Zetetic Council (“The Council”) as specified in this document to be the sole administrative functioning body that will remain the foundation of The Society throughout perpetuity. Any individual or group wishing recognition of legitimacy within The Society must apply as stated in this document and be willing to continue operating within the guidelines set forth and with all future amendment changes issued by The Council.”

Then our two groups can either merge (preferable?) or remain independent but must act within the guidelines of The Council.

A period of time is established whereby known groups are contacted by The Council to begin their approval process. If they protest or ignore our request, they are not recognized as legitimate.

[Blanko]

To secure a claim of legitimacy, we originate a process deeming all groups claiming relevance to FET recognize Daniel’s ownership of everything TFES, for all the right reasons. 

Daniel is brought into negotiations and, because the future of TFES is paramount, he recognizes that guidance by the Zetetic Council is a prudent way to establish a controlling entity for TFES.

Our two orgs discuss how the inner workings of the Zetetic Council can best influence Society interests. 

Daniel writes a manifesto similar to:

“As the legitimate and recognized President of any and all organizations claiming formation and association as The Flat Earth Society (“The Society”), I hereby command the Zetetic Council (“The Council”) as specified in this document to be the sole administrative functioning body that will remain the foundation of The Society throughout perpetuity. Any individual or group wishing recognition of legitimacy within The Society must apply as stated in this document and be willing to continue operating within the guidelines set forth and with all future amendment changes issued by The Council.”

Then our two groups can either merge (preferable?) or remain independent but must act within the guidelines of The Council.

A period of time is established whereby known groups are contacted by The Council to begin their approval process. If they protest or ignore our request, they are not recognized as legitimate.

Getting Daniel to do something... interesting proposal, but impossible in practice.

[Thork]

To secure a claim of legitimacy, we originate a process deeming all groups claiming relevance to FET recognize Daniel’s ownership of everything TFES, for all the right reasons. 

Daniel is brought into negotiations and, because the future of TFES is paramount, he recognizes that guidance by the Zetetic Council is a prudent way to establish a controlling entity for TFES.

Our two orgs discuss how the inner workings of the Zetetic Council can best influence Society interests. 

Daniel writes a manifesto similar to:

“As the legitimate and recognized President of any and all organizations claiming formation and association as The Flat Earth Society (“The Society”), I hereby command the Zetetic Council (“The Council”) as specified in this document to be the sole administrative functioning body that will remain the foundation of The Society throughout perpetuity. Any individual or group wishing recognition of legitimacy within The Society must apply as stated in this document and be willing to continue operating within the guidelines set forth and with all future amendment changes issued by The Council.”

Then our two groups can either merge (preferable?) or remain independent but must act within the guidelines of The Council.

A period of time is established whereby known groups are contacted by The Council to begin their approval process. If they protest or ignore our request, they are not recognized as legitimate.

Is this a joke? We don't need Daniel to be legitimate. Who is Daniel, a domain squatter? He doesn't even know anything about flat earth theory. Nor is he ever present. He was never voted president, he would not win a vote now, and why would we want to sign up to a perpetual agreement that declares him the leader for all time? He's a bloody terrible leader.

He does not own all things TFES. He's a nobody. He has no trademark, no patent, no rights, no copyright, nothing. All he owns is a conveniently named domain on which he has plonked a badly run website.

How dare you come here and suggest we are not legitimate! 

[Pete Svarrior]

I'm sorry, gotham, but I'm with Thork and Blanko on this one. At this point, we're our own society, and it wouldn't benefit us or the FE movement in any way to throw this away. Besides, for reasons which I'm afraid I shouldn't be stating in public, I'm quite convinced that Daniel wouldn't be interested in claiming ownership of the FES anymore.

[gotham]

I could have used better words instead of ones like “ownership” and “legitimacy.” It was late and I was jamming it to finish my post. My train of thought was:

Daniel is recognized as the person who renewed TFES going back to Rowbotham. He did represent the society as that person and developed the website that, more than likely, influenced us having this discussion today.

There is strength in having historical FET continuity to those important to its beginnings.

There is a benefit to FET when one go-to location is more recognized as having the voice of consensus.
 
There is benefit to FET when able to identify locations that advance FET for what it is.

Terms like “splinter group” are an unfair representation of reality and shouldn't be tagged as such into the future, as the beginning. 

[Thork]

It is time to move on, Gotham. The era of Daniel is over. Just as Charles K Johnson's was before that and Samuel Shenton's before that. He had a good run. More than a decade. He has out-lived his usefulness.

We've moved on. Its time you did too.

[Roundy]

There is strength in having historical FET continuity to those important to its beginnings.

I think we actually have that with this site.  Daniel lost interest in his old pet project, the old site was withering away, and from its ashes, this site emerged as many of the old site's strongest FET proponents (particularly Tom Bishop, who has served as something of a spokesman for our cause) moved here.  Thus the continuity is preserved.  We don't need to be tied to a dying site and an apathetic leader to have that continuity.