Experiment proposal
« on: December 01, 2020, 06:34:25 PM »
Hi

I follow the Flat Earth community since a few years, now.
At first, I was looking at the explainations provided for common questions, such as how to explain distances, movement of the stars.
But quickly, I ended up falling on the same answers again and again, and, at the end always referring to the same century old observations/experiments.

One thing characterizing Science is that it always challenge its status, with new experiments.
Why is that different in the Flat Earth world?
If you want everybody to accept the Flat Earth hypothesis, you must imagine an experiment to prove that the observations match the hypothesis.

For example, your hypothesis being that Earth is flat, a LASER's light emitted horizontally should always stay parallel to the ground.
The critical point is that, in Science, you don't try to prove your hypothesis is right, but you try to prove it false, until you cannot find a way to do so.
Then only, you can say your hypothesis is strong enough to become a theory.
Maybe one day, someone will design a better experiment and break the theory and we are back to find a better hypothesis.

So, let's design an experiment for the stated hypothesis.
Find a big flat area, for example one of those:
https://www.redbull.com/ca-en/mysterious-places-part-5

(one without obstacle, a dry lake is a good candidate)

Buy a good quality LASER, a screen, a ruler (more than 2m), and a few solid supports.
Fix the LASER on one support, let's say 1.50m high.
On the other support, fix the screen and the ruller on the side.
Test your installation facing the 2 parts, separated by a few meters and lighting the LASER. You should see a light dot on the screen, at 1.50m.

Now, go to the area you selected earlier and do the same, increasing the distance between the supports.
According to the hypothesis, the light observed on the screen should stay at the same height, whatever the distance between both supports.

To make an honest experiment, you should mesure for a dustance big enough that the hypothesis should have a significative difference with the Round Earth hypothesis.
According to the latter, from less than 2km, you should see a result signficatively bigger than the margin of error due to the experiment itself.
http://earthcurvature.com/

Do the experiment and analyze the result, then draw your conclusion.
Additionally, if you documented your protocol properly, you can consider to publish your work, so that other people can replicate your experiment and consolidate/contradict your conclusions.

You'll say you need money to buy the equipment and travel to the selected area.
And I'd say ask the Flat Earth community to finance it. After all, it will help their cause.
And we are not speaking about millions. It's only a matter of a few thousands dollars.

Among all the Flat Earther, there should be a few motivated people to do such an experiment, no?

Good luck

Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2020, 11:47:32 PM »
So, nobody 's interested?
I know it's easier to investigaet on Youtube, but if you want to spread your ideas, you need to convince people.

Anyway, it just confirms my vision. Good luck.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2020, 01:16:48 AM »
Laser experiments have been done.

Pier2Pier Dr. John D - 9.5 mi two-way laser test - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ3TLdcVNfA

DMarble 10 Mile Laser Test - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj1GYfCRE3U

9.5-mile Laser Test Flat Earth Perth Australia - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FkTaS7g4gE

Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2020, 12:41:18 PM »
Thanks for the links, Tom.
Those experiments are effectively interesting.

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Offline Regicide

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2021, 02:18:38 PM »
Ahem... LIGO

https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/facts

Especially notable is the part where they mention having to account for the curvature of the earth.
Please do not make arguments about things you don't understand.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2021, 03:27:34 PM »
Ahem... LIGO

https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/facts

Especially notable is the part where they mention having to account for the curvature of the earth.

https://wiki.tfes.org/LIGO_Curvature_Compensation

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Offline Regicide

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2021, 05:55:08 PM »
Thanks for that wiki link. So, let's look at this analytically. The builders say that they had to account for the curvature of the earth, right? So, rather than elevate both ends, they elevated one end. However, there is a difference between how this would occur on a flat earth vs round earth. Although a laser raised at one end would indeed work on a flat earth, the distance from the middle to a ground is different on a flat earth vs a round earth. In precision construction, EVERY part is measured to high tolerances, and I have no doubt that the builders would certainly have noticed deviation from their plans. So, what do you think: is Caltech in on "the conspiracy", or is there no conspiracy at all?

Edit: Oh, and EA can't account for this one: straightness is one of the primary parts of precison, you can bet that that tube is dead precise.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2021, 05:56:40 PM by Regicide »
Please do not make arguments about things you don't understand.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2021, 06:24:21 PM »
Looks like the tube diameter of those arms is more than a few feet in diameter to me.


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Offline Regicide

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2021, 06:40:56 PM »
...yup. Sure is. Could you perhaps elaborate on your point, because I'm not exactly sure to what you are alluding.
Please do not make arguments about things you don't understand.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2021, 08:19:17 PM »
If the beam starts off low in the tube and ends up high in the tube at the other end it would be the same result if they angled the beam slightly upwards at the receiver on a flat earth or the earth curved downwards on a round one.

Alternatively, if the center of the tube was gradually elevating in altitude as if on a ramp for a few feet, then there would also be a path on a FE if the beam was slightly angled upwards to reach the receiver.

The components had to be aligned at some point to get it to work. The point is that on an FE there is no physical obstruction preventing a path regarding how they accounted for 'earth curvature'.

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Offline JSS

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2021, 08:21:36 PM »
If the beam starts off low in the tube and ends up high in the tube at the other end it would be the same result if they angled the beam slightly upwards at the receiver on a flat earth or the earth curved downwards on a round one.

The tube is perfectly straight, there is no need to angle the beam inside regardless of the shape of the Earth outside of it. The point of the tube isn't to have it follow the curve/plane of the ground, it's to have the tube straight so the beam can travel from one end to the other without being blocked. If they had built it perfectly flat along the ground, the Earth's curve would have blocked the beam in the middle as the tube would also be curved. Once built the curve is no longer a consideration.

The time when the curve of the Earth mattered was during construction, where each end had to be raised over a meter so the entire tube would be straight. Once it was built then you just set your equipment up at the ends and point them at each other.  The curvature calculations was not simply lifting one end of the tube, it was constantly adjusting along the entire length to account for the curve. Otherwise you would have a curved tube, which is not at all what they wanted.

If the Earth doesn't curve, why did they take the curve into consideration during construction? As Regicide pointed out, are they lying, or mistaken? What is the evidence for either?

https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/facts

Curvature of the Earth: LIGO’s arms are long enough that the curvature of the Earth was a factor in their construction. Over the 4 km length of each arm, the Earth curves away by nearly a meter! Precision concrete pouring of the path upon which the beam-tube is installed was required to counteract this curvature.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2021, 08:25:16 PM »
If the beam starts off low in the tube and ends up high in the tube at the other end it would be the same result if they angled the beam slightly upwards at the receiver on a flat earth or the earth curved downwards on a round one.

The tube is perfectly straight, there is no need to angle the beam inside regardless of the shape of the Earth outside of it. The point of the tube isn't to have it follow the curve/plane of the ground, it's to have the tube straight so the beam can travel from one end to the other without being blocked. If they had built it perfectly flat along the ground, the Earth's curve would have blocked the beam in the middle as the tube would also be curved. Once built the curve is no longer a consideration.

The time when the curve of the Earth mattered was during construction, where each end had to be raised over a meter so the entire tube would be straight. Once it was built then you just set your equipment up at the ends and point them at each other.  The curvature calculations was not simply lifting one end of the tube, it was constantly adjusting along the entire length to account for the curve. Otherwise you would have a curved tube, which is not at all what they wanted.

If the Earth doesn't curve, why did they take the curve into consideration during construction? As Regicide pointed out, are they lying, or mistaken? What is the evidence for either?

https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/facts

Curvature of the Earth: LIGO’s arms are long enough that the curvature of the Earth was a factor in their construction. Over the 4 km length of each arm, the Earth curves away by nearly a meter! Precision concrete pouring of the path upon which the beam-tube is installed was required to counteract this curvature.

https://wiki.tfes.org/LIGO_Curvature_Compensation

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Offline JSS

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2021, 08:29:09 PM »
If the beam starts off low in the tube and ends up high in the tube at the other end it would be the same result if they angled the beam slightly upwards at the receiver on a flat earth or the earth curved downwards on a round one.

The tube is perfectly straight, there is no need to angle the beam inside regardless of the shape of the Earth outside of it. The point of the tube isn't to have it follow the curve/plane of the ground, it's to have the tube straight so the beam can travel from one end to the other without being blocked. If they had built it perfectly flat along the ground, the Earth's curve would have blocked the beam in the middle as the tube would also be curved. Once built the curve is no longer a consideration.

The time when the curve of the Earth mattered was during construction, where each end had to be raised over a meter so the entire tube would be straight. Once it was built then you just set your equipment up at the ends and point them at each other.  The curvature calculations was not simply lifting one end of the tube, it was constantly adjusting along the entire length to account for the curve. Otherwise you would have a curved tube, which is not at all what they wanted.

If the Earth doesn't curve, why did they take the curve into consideration during construction? As Regicide pointed out, are they lying, or mistaken? What is the evidence for either?

https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/facts

Curvature of the Earth: LIGO’s arms are long enough that the curvature of the Earth was a factor in their construction. Over the 4 km length of each arm, the Earth curves away by nearly a meter! Precision concrete pouring of the path upon which the beam-tube is installed was required to counteract this curvature.

https://wiki.tfes.org/LIGO_Curvature_Compensation

I did read the wiki page, what part of it are you referring to in response to my statement and question?

Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2021, 08:33:39 PM »
If the beam starts off low in the tube and ends up high in the tube at the other end it would be the same result if they angled the beam slightly upwards at the receiver on a flat earth or the earth curved downwards on a round one.
..........
The components had to be aligned at some point to get it to work. The point is that on an FE there is no physical obstruction preventing a path regarding how they accounted for 'earth curvature'.

The beams actually bounce back and forth a lot in each arm before the measurement, each travelling 1120km before final merge and detection, so the necessary precision is a lot higher than you seem to think. Aligned “at some point” indeed!

https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/LA/page/ligo-technology
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2021, 08:55:17 PM »
I did read the wiki page, what part of it are you referring to in response to my statement and question?

Quote the wiki and let us know what part you find incorrect about the explanation.

The beams actually bounce back and forth a lot in each arm before the measurement, each travelling 1120km before final merge and detection, so the necessary precision is a lot higher than you seem to think. Aligned “at some point” indeed!

https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/LA/page/ligo-technology

Why can't it bounce back?

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2021, 09:02:39 PM »
According to the reference, the beam tubes are 1.2 meters in diameter.
https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/vacuum

The designers also feel that the the curvature of the earth needs to be taken into account as well.
Perhaps the designers of this multi-million dollar project were incorrect and they didn't have to correct for the earth's curvature, but if they did that and the earth was flat then the laser & the mirrors would be terribly out of alignment when they fired it up the first time.  It would be a very embarrassing design error.  Do you really think that happened?
 
 
You can lead a flat earther to the curve but you can't make him think!

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2021, 09:06:49 PM »
As discussed, there isn't a physical barrier if the earth is flat and the receiving end is elevated a few feet in altitude.

You are assuming that it is possible to align everything perfectly level on the first try, perfectly, to hit something dead on 4km away. They clearly had to run tests and align the components to get it to work, not wing it.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2021, 09:15:31 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline JSS

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2021, 09:13:49 PM »
I did read the wiki page, what part of it are you referring to in response to my statement and question?

Quote the wiki and let us know what part you find incorrect about the explanation.

My post didn't mention or refer to the wiki, and neither did the post of yours I replied to so I am puzzled why I would need to do that.

One of my comments was asking why the LIGO scientists would lie about needing to take the curve of the Earth into consideration, which the wiki does not address. Do you have an explanation?

I also mentioned that the alignment happens after the construction and has nothing to do with the curve or plane of the Earth. The construction needed to take the curve into account, aligning it is done after the tubes have been built and finished in a perfectly straight line. At that point it no longer matters what the shape of the earth below or around the tube is. 

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2021, 09:15:48 PM »
The answer is in the wiki. I also summarized it:

As discussed, there isn't a physical barrier if the earth is flat and the receiving end is elevated a few feet in altitude.

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Offline JSS

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Re: Experiment proposal
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2021, 09:29:09 PM »
The answer is in the wiki. I also summarized it:

As discussed, there isn't a physical barrier if the earth is flat and the receiving end is elevated a few feet in altitude.

That does not answer what I asked, which is why would the LIGO team would elevate one end for no reason and then lie about doing it to compensate for the curve of the Earth. What reason would they have to do this, and what is the evidence supporting it?