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Online Lord Dave

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Oh hey, its China
« on: May 28, 2021, 06:59:07 PM »
In Oklahoma!
https://www.npr.org/2021/05/28/1000537206/teachers-laws-banning-critical-race-theory-are-leading-to-self-censorship

The government telling schools not to teach things that make the country "feel bad".  Wow.... That's some tiananmen square level shit right there.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Oh hey, its China
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2021, 07:27:33 PM »
Quote
A bill signed into law by Oklahoma Gov. Kevin Stitt bans lessons that include the concept that "one race or sex is inherently superior to another race or sex," that a person's "moral character is inherently determined by his or her race or sex," or that someone should feel discomfort, guilt or distress on account of their race or sex.

Wow, the liberals who support schools teaching this must be racist and sexist. The civil rights and suffrage movements fought for equality and to prevent things like this.

Please, let us all hear your arguments on why government school systems should teach that one race is inherently superior to another race, or that morality is determined by race, or that someone should feel discomfort, guilt or distress on account of their race or sex.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Oh hey, its China
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2021, 08:21:00 PM »
It seems more likely Dave didn’t read the article. Teachers being worried about being sued is an unfortunate side effect of American Culture.
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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Oh hey, its China
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2021, 08:24:39 PM »
Quote
A bill signed into law by Oklahoma Gov. Kevin Stitt bans lessons that include the concept that "one race or sex is inherently superior to another race or sex," that a person's "moral character is inherently determined by his or her race or sex," or that someone should feel discomfort, guilt or distress on account of their race or sex.

Wow, the liberals who support schools teaching this must be racist and sexist. The civil rights and suffrage movements fought for equality and to prevent things like this.

Please, let us all hear your arguments on why government school systems should teach that one race is inherently superior to another race, or that morality is determined by race, or that someone should feel discomfort, guilt or distress on account of their race or sex.

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"What if they say the wrong thing?" Lewis said. "What if somebody in their class during the critical thinking brings up the word oppression or systemic racism? Are they in danger? Is their job in danger?"
I'm curious why you feel this is a good thing that teachers should be afraid of.



It seems more likely Dave didn’t read the article. Teachers being worried about being sued is an unfortunate side effect of American Culture.
I did.
The actual things spelled out in the ban are not my concern.  Its the fears the teachers have, that is.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Oh hey, its China
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2021, 08:25:55 PM »
Ok fair but then how do you hey from “Teacher’s fear they might get in trouble” to China level oppression?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Oh hey, its China
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2021, 08:33:43 PM »
I'm curious why you feel this is a good thing that teachers should be afraid of.

If a teacher is teaching that one race is superior to another, that morality is determined by race, or that students should feel guilty based on their race, they should be fired.

That's literally the definition of racism. Why not fire them for that?

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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Oh hey, its China
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2021, 08:40:42 PM »
I'm curious why you feel this is a good thing that teachers should be afraid of.

If a teacher is teaching that one race is superior to another, that morality is determined by race, or that students should feel guilty based on their race, they should be fired.

That's literally the definition of racism. Why not fire them for that?

They should be.
But the law is more vague than that.  Which is the problem.
Ex:
Lets say I teach kids that the Nazi's felt they were superior to the Jews.
Should I be fired now?  Because I am teaching kids that Nazi's thought they were superior to the Jews. 



Ok fair but then how do you hey from “Teacher’s fear they might get in trouble” to China level oppression?
Mostly hyperbole.  But I mean, the whole point of the article is how Teachers are trying to be careful when teaching history or talking about current events for fear of breaking the law.  Which they shouldn't be.  You should not be afraid of being sued because you taught kids "The white folks in Montgomery, Alabama in the 1950s felt they were superior to Blacks".  This is a historical fact.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Oh hey, its China
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2021, 08:46:00 PM »
Right. I think any teacher that is afraid of that is probably being a little too cautious.
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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Oh hey, its China
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2021, 08:47:44 PM »
Right. I think any teacher that is afraid of that is probably being a little too cautious.
This is a red state.
A very red state.
They're probably not cautious enough.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Oh hey, its China
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2021, 09:39:15 PM »
Right. I think any teacher that is afraid of that is probably being a little too cautious.
This is a red state.
A very red state.
They're probably not cautious enough.

I will believe it when I see it. Until then it sounds a little alarmist to me.
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Offline honk

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Re: Oh hey, its China
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2021, 10:08:27 PM »
Nobody is teaching anyone that one race is superior to another. ::)  Just like the War on Christmas, the supposed cancelation of Mr. Potato Head and Dr. Seuss. the nonexistent upcoming ban on hamburgers, and at least half a dozen other examples from the last couple of years, this is just another nonsensical cultural boogeyman that Republicans have dreamed up and then furiously railed against to rile up their base, because they apparently don't want to campaign on actual issues anymore. My guess is that the teachers objecting to this aren't worried about actually violating the law, they're worried about being accused of violating the law by a conservative politician or activist looking to boost their career by publicly flogging them.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Oh hey, its China
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2021, 10:33:03 PM »
For sure that’s what it is. The law doesn’t mention critical race theory and critical race theory says nothing about another race being inherently superior.
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Offline crutonius

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Re: Oh hey, its China
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2021, 10:10:02 AM »
Okay.  So I've skimmed over the article of Critical Race Theory on Wikipedia and... I gotta say I don't think this is a subject that belongs in any learning institution.  I'm seeing a lot of statements in this article that are wrongheaded, nonsensical or run counter to the goals of education.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory#:~:text=Critical%20race%20theory%20(CRT)%20is,liberal%20approaches%20to%20racial%20justice.

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The theory [is] radical... in the sense that it questions fundamental assumptions.... And unlike some strands of academic and legal thought, critical race theory has an open and activist agenda, with an emphasis on storytelling and personal experience. It's about righting wrongs, not just questing after knowledge....

This statement tells me that CRT is intended to indoctrinate rather than educate.

There's another concept, "naming one's own reality".  No.  Just no.

Here's another common theme;
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Non-white cultural nationalism/separatism: The exploration of more radical views that argue for separation and reparations as a form of foreign aid (including black nationalism).
Does that mean I think it does?  A black ethnostate?  The "liberals" that teach this don't see a problem with that?

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Standpoint epistemology: The view that a member of a minority has an authority and ability to speak about racism that members of other racial groups do not have, and that this can expose the racial neutrality of law as false.
I hope the problem with this one is immediately obvious.

I'm all for changing the way we tell history.  I think it should be told several times through the perspective of all the groups involved.  But I just think that teaching CRT is a little like teaching flat earth theory.

Feel free to point out where I'm wrong.  I've never heard of this CRT until about a week ago.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Oh hey, its China
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2021, 11:07:48 AM »
It seems like you are criticizing the most radical interpretations though, which is fair but not very representative. Of course someone can take CRT and use it to justify ethnostates, racial superiority, etc... But at it’s core CRT isn’t those things. It would like looking at academics who used Darwinism to justify eugenics and say that the theory is rotten.

Also, CRT being about righting wrongs is about fighting racism. That isn’t a particularly controversial wrong to right. Don’t get me wrong though, since CRT is in the limelight so much these days, there are a bunch of idiots, like Robin D’Angelo, who get a platform and are able to spread harmful ideas. I expect this to pass, since there are many on the left who seeing the shit she is doing and rejecting it.
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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Oh hey, its China
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2021, 11:35:32 AM »
As I understand it, CRT is about teaching that racism is a thing and how it affects people and cultures.
Like how did racism affect the Jews in Germany?  The civil rights?  Cuktures that are no longer active (native tribes, Mayans, etc...). The Israel/Palistinian conflect through the lens of prejudice.

That sort of thing.
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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Oh hey, its China
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2021, 09:45:47 PM »
Like how did racism affect the Jews in Germany? 
It only convinced them that genocide is a good idea.

The Israel/Palistinian conflect through the lens of prejudice.
They learned from the best.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2021, 09:47:31 PM by Toddler Thork »
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Offline honk

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Re: Oh hey, its China
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2021, 11:00:31 PM »
https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conservative-activist-invented-the-conflict-over-critical-race-theory

A frank admission that the hubbub over CRT is an insincere work of partisan astroturfing, from the person largely responsible for astroturfing it to begin with.
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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Oh hey, its China
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2021, 10:47:22 AM »
https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conservative-activist-invented-the-conflict-over-critical-race-theory

A frank admission that the hubbub over CRT is an insincere work of partisan astroturfing, from the person largely responsible for astroturfing it to begin with.
And it worked so well, no conservative questioned anything about it.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.