Offline jimster

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The effect FE has on me
« on: March 11, 2019, 08:05:11 PM »
FE has implications for me that casual FErs might not realize.

First, in science class, they didn't say "believe this just because we told you". In 4th grade, we made inclinometers and used them to get an angle on the north star. Then we looked up our latitude, it matched. The teacher then drew a diagram of round earth with people on it and showed how their latitude was equal to the angle they would see to the north star. This was the beginning of education in science through university where we did as many of the actual experiments as practical, we did the math, we saw diagrams, etc.

According to FE I was "brainwashed", but to me that means "too stupid to see through that crap". After all, FErs figured it out, often say it is obvious. So RE must be too dumb to see. Then I look at FE posts and videos and compare it to my fourth grade teacher presentation. Really? 4th grade teacher was tight, clear, simple, complete and explained it. There is no youtube video to explain north star inclination = latitude, I have looked.

Second, I grew up at Edwards AFB USAF Flight Test Center/NASA Dryden/rocket test site where my father worked. My father and most of my friend's fathers worked at test center, nasa, rocket site, astronaut training school, Lockheed, and North American. The first scenes of "The Right Stuff" were filmed there, some in a house exactly like mine. Where they first broke the speed of sound, Yeager. Space shuttle has landed there. I saw SR-71 AND b-70 take off and land. Two X-15 pilots lived on my street, I knew their kids. I asked one if he saw the curve of the earth (through a flat rectangular window), he laughed and said "yes, everybody asks that." Sonic booms all day.

Our fathers got us into very cool aerospace tech places, one father brought home a genie bottle of liquid nitrogen and we did the freeze flower and shatter it, just like the science films. I was in aerospace explorers, tours of Pt Mugu and Goldstone radiotelescopes, climbed all over the test stand for Saturn V, saw (and heard tests of it). Neil Young gave a speech to my high school science class before he went to the moon. After they taught us the periodic chart, we made explosives (chlorine pellets from my backyard pool and some gasoline in a used CO2 cartridge mortar bomb, for one).

In college, I had a summer intern job at the flight test center computer where they were doing data analysis of the then new F-15. My girlfriend summer interned at NASA Dryden, where her father worked on very high temperature glue. I had lunch there and got tours. My best friend's father was an engineer working on the lunar module. The lunar lander was first tested at Edwards. We followed this stuff like other kids followed sports teams.

My father worked on the Saturn V tests. When they fired one off, you could see it and hear it in town. Impressive. Later my father worked on the SR-71, first at the "skunk works", then at area 51.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

My youth was immersed in aerospace, and I personally knew two men who went over 200,000 feet in the X-15. Our fathers were mostly WW2 vets, what Brokaw called "The Greatest Generation". FErs would say they were a bunch of people doing phony things who lacked the ability that FErs have to see through it. The FErs have to be a lot smarter than literal rocket scientists.

So my father was a liar and I am brainwashed, or both brainwashed? Conspiracy theories are not harmless, they hurt people. And I defy you to define the edges of the conspiracy of how ten, or a hundred, or a thousand could do all the required shenanigans to fool billions.

It was miserable living at Edwards, 60 mph wind, 115 degree heat, no trees, tumbleweeds in my yard, out in the middle of nowhere, could get down to zero in winter, once it snowed 2 feet - high desert is a bitch and I hated it. But we did it, to do our tiny part so that USA could have fighters and rockets. And at least I got one of the coolest tech childhoods ever.
I am really curious about so many FE things, like how at sunset in Denver, people in St Louis see the dome as dark with stars, while people in Salt Lake City see the same dome as light blue. FE scientists don't know or won't tell me.

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Offline TomFoolery

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Re: The effect FE has on me
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2019, 08:11:12 PM »
There is no youtube video to explain north star inclination = latitude, I have looked.

It's worse than thought.

Here's one such video that comes close. The indication here is that since it's 3D projected, any scene can be made available to anyone anywhere, and where you are determines what scene you see:


Offline jimster

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Re: The effect FE has on me
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2019, 08:58:11 PM »
A FEr told me that no planes actually fly from Australia to south America, because on the polar projection map, the distance is too far. I asked him when I flew from Sydney to LA, which is longer than the range of any airliner on the FE polar projection map, and the distance, airliner speed, and travel time all matched the RE globe distance, he questioned whether I was actually in Australia (weird animals, weird geopragy, locals call it OZ for good reason). When I explained I was there for 10 days, traveled to the Blue Mountains, and knew probably 20 Australians that worked for my company, they all thought they were in Australia (or threatened by NASA to lie?), etc etc etc, he changed the subject.
I am really curious about so many FE things, like how at sunset in Denver, people in St Louis see the dome as dark with stars, while people in Salt Lake City see the same dome as light blue. FE scientists don't know or won't tell me.

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Offline QED

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Re: The effect FE has on me
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2019, 10:31:25 PM »
A FEr told me that no planes actually fly from Australia to south America, because on the polar projection map, the distance is too far. I asked him when I flew from Sydney to LA, which is longer than the range of any airliner on the FE polar projection map, and the distance, airliner speed, and travel time all matched the RE globe distance, he questioned whether I was actually in Australia (weird animals, weird geopragy, locals call it OZ for good reason). When I explained I was there for 10 days, traveled to the Blue Mountains, and knew probably 20 Australians that worked for my company, they all thought they were in Australia (or threatened by NASA to lie?), etc etc etc, he changed the subject.

I’m confused. How did you know the speed of the plane? This is the only way you can compute the distance, yes?
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

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Offline jimster

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Re: The effect FE has on me
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2019, 11:30:38 PM »
Other ways to compute the distance: gps, spherical geometry, celestial navigation, odometer.

Boston -> LA is 2700 miles on bing map, nonstop flights are 5 hours 45 minutes.

I have flown this route, my experience matched.

Dividing gives an average speed of 470. Right in the range of jetliner speeds.

What does not match?

I am really curious about so many FE things, like how at sunset in Denver, people in St Louis see the dome as dark with stars, while people in Salt Lake City see the same dome as light blue. FE scientists don't know or won't tell me.

Re: The effect FE has on me
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2019, 01:04:33 AM »
When I explained I was there for 10 days, traveled to the Blue Mountains, and knew probably 20 Australians that worked for my company, they all thought they were in Australia (or threatened by NASA to lie?), etc etc etc, he changed the subject.

I find the hardest part of being Australian is getting that terrible accent right when tourists are around. Also sticking those duck bills on platypuses is really time-consuming. They never keep still.

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Offline stack

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Re: The effect FE has on me
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2019, 01:24:01 AM »
A FEr told me that no planes actually fly from Australia to south America, because on the polar projection map, the distance is too far. I asked him when I flew from Sydney to LA, which is longer than the range of any airliner on the FE polar projection map, and the distance, airliner speed, and travel time all matched the RE globe distance, he questioned whether I was actually in Australia (weird animals, weird geopragy, locals call it OZ for good reason). When I explained I was there for 10 days, traveled to the Blue Mountains, and knew probably 20 Australians that worked for my company, they all thought they were in Australia (or threatened by NASA to lie?), etc etc etc, he changed the subject.

I’m confused. How did you know the speed of the plane? This is the only way you can compute the distance, yes?

If you're actually on the flight you can usually poke on the screen in front of you and see the data, which I assume is fairly accurate. One of these:


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Offline QED

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Re: The effect FE has on me
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2019, 02:57:51 AM »
Oh, so you don’t actually know the speed, but rather assume the number shown to you is accurate.

Well then, I’d sure like to play you in poker :)
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

- Tom Bishop

We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

- Pete Svarrior

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Re: The effect FE has on me
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2019, 03:15:03 AM »
Oh, so you don’t actually know the speed, but rather assume the number shown to you is accurate.

Well then, I’d sure like to play you in poker :)

How would anyone 'know' the speed without instrumentation of some sort? If I'm a pilot (or a passenger) I assume they know their speed/distance/fuel consumption through instrumentation/calculation or we all wind up in the drink. Unless of course you want to argue that we have no knowledge as to or any way to measure how fast something is moving. I'm game.

Offline jimster

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Re: The effect FE has on me
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2019, 06:18:28 AM »
I flew from TX to CA, and I have driven from TX to CA. The distance on my odometer was very close to the distance published on the airline schedule. The time was also very close to published. The speed of the airliner worked out to 470 mph, matches time, matches distance, plane matches car matches gps matches google maps.

How would it not be obvious to many immediately if the time speed distance was wrong? Pilot, passengers, etc are zombies? Millions of people, thousands of pilots. All too dumb to realize something doesn't add up?

I am really curious about so many FE things, like how at sunset in Denver, people in St Louis see the dome as dark with stars, while people in Salt Lake City see the same dome as light blue. FE scientists don't know or won't tell me.

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Offline QED

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Re: The effect FE has on me
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2019, 03:26:02 PM »
Oh, so you don’t actually know the speed, but rather assume the number shown to you is accurate.

Well then, I’d sure like to play you in poker :)

How would anyone 'know' the speed without instrumentation of some sort? If I'm a pilot (or a passenger) I assume they know their speed/distance/fuel consumption through instrumentation/calculation or we all wind up in the drink. Unless of course you want to argue that we have no knowledge as to or any way to measure how fast something is moving. I'm game.

While it is certainly possible to measure a speed, reading a number on a screen is not it. That’s all I’m saying.
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

- Tom Bishop

We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

- Pete Svarrior

Offline jimster

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Re: The effect FE has on me
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2019, 04:24:51 PM »
What do we know about airliner speed? Nothing?

Do we know it is about 470 on all schedules?

Can you find me a schedule that does not divide distance by time and get around 470? 

I am going to treat airliner speed = 470 as truth. I have many schedules, Boeing docs, and my personal experience as confirmatioon.

Do you have a reason to believe I am wrong that is stronger than my reasons to believe 470 mph?
I am really curious about so many FE things, like how at sunset in Denver, people in St Louis see the dome as dark with stars, while people in Salt Lake City see the same dome as light blue. FE scientists don't know or won't tell me.

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Offline QED

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Re: The effect FE has on me
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2019, 07:23:38 PM »
What do we know about airliner speed? Nothing?

Do we know it is about 470 on all schedules?

Can you find me a schedule that does not divide distance by time and get around 470? 

I am going to treat airliner speed = 470 as truth. I have many schedules, Boeing docs, and my personal experience as confirmatioon.

Do you have a reason to believe I am wrong that is stronger than my reasons to believe 470 mph?

That is a shifting of the burden of proof. I do not have to prove you wrong, you made the claim and so the burden falls on you.

I would say that reading a number off a screen does not qualify as very strong evidence.
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

- Tom Bishop

We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

- Pete Svarrior

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Re: The effect FE has on me
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2019, 07:58:59 PM »
Oh, so you don’t actually know the speed, but rather assume the number shown to you is accurate.

Well then, I’d sure like to play you in poker :)

How would anyone 'know' the speed without instrumentation of some sort? If I'm a pilot (or a passenger) I assume they know their speed/distance/fuel consumption through instrumentation/calculation or we all wind up in the drink. Unless of course you want to argue that we have no knowledge as to or any way to measure how fast something is moving. I'm game.

While it is certainly possible to measure a speed, reading a number on a screen is not it. That’s all I’m saying.

How so? Is a pilot not reading a measured speed via an instrument through a gauge/screen? I often times on a flight listen to the pilots and ATC when available. They are constantly referring to speed and altitude changes. Are they not reading said data from a screen/gauge. As well, their verbal statements regarding such are reflected on the screen in front of me. By your argument the speedometer in my car is just me reading a number on a screen and is not a measure of my speed.

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Offline QED

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Re: The effect FE has on me
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2019, 08:09:32 PM »
Oh, so you don’t actually know the speed, but rather assume the number shown to you is accurate.

Well then, I’d sure like to play you in poker :)

How would anyone 'know' the speed without instrumentation of some sort? If I'm a pilot (or a passenger) I assume they know their speed/distance/fuel consumption through instrumentation/calculation or we all wind up in the drink. Unless of course you want to argue that we have no knowledge as to or any way to measure how fast something is moving. I'm game.

While it is certainly possible to measure a speed, reading a number on a screen is not it. That’s all I’m saying.

How so? Is a pilot not reading a measured speed via an instrument through a gauge/screen? I often times on a flight listen to the pilots and ATC when available. They are constantly referring to speed and altitude changes. Are they not reading said data from a screen/gauge. As well, their verbal statements regarding such are reflected on the screen in front of me. By your argument the speedometer in my car is just me reading a number on a screen and is not a measure of my speed.

It is a number shown to you on a screen without any explanation of how it was obtained. You are not in the cockpit reading an instrument. They can put any number they want there.

381 mph. See?
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

- Tom Bishop

We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

- Pete Svarrior

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Re: The effect FE has on me
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2019, 08:18:18 PM »
Oh, so you don’t actually know the speed, but rather assume the number shown to you is accurate.

Well then, I’d sure like to play you in poker :)

How would anyone 'know' the speed without instrumentation of some sort? If I'm a pilot (or a passenger) I assume they know their speed/distance/fuel consumption through instrumentation/calculation or we all wind up in the drink. Unless of course you want to argue that we have no knowledge as to or any way to measure how fast something is moving. I'm game.

While it is certainly possible to measure a speed, reading a number on a screen is not it. That’s all I’m saying.

How so? Is a pilot not reading a measured speed via an instrument through a gauge/screen? I often times on a flight listen to the pilots and ATC when available. They are constantly referring to speed and altitude changes. Are they not reading said data from a screen/gauge. As well, their verbal statements regarding such are reflected on the screen in front of me. By your argument the speedometer in my car is just me reading a number on a screen and is not a measure of my speed.

It is a number shown to you on a screen without any explanation of how it was obtained. You are not in the cockpit reading an instrument. They can put any number they want there.

381 mph. See?

So is the number shown on the screen in the cockpit without any explanation of how it was obtained just a number with no meaning or accuracy? Does the speedometer in my car also need to show the mechanics and formulas used to derive the speed it displays?

As well, I can hear the pilot say to ATC, "Copy, to X knots and X altitude..." And sure enough, the screen in the headrest in front of me will ultimately show those X's.

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Offline QED

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Re: The effect FE has on me
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2019, 08:20:51 PM »
Oh, so you don’t actually know the speed, but rather assume the number shown to you is accurate.

Well then, I’d sure like to play you in poker :)

How would anyone 'know' the speed without instrumentation of some sort? If I'm a pilot (or a passenger) I assume they know their speed/distance/fuel consumption through instrumentation/calculation or we all wind up in the drink. Unless of course you want to argue that we have no knowledge as to or any way to measure how fast something is moving. I'm game.

While it is certainly possible to measure a speed, reading a number on a screen is not it. That’s all I’m saying.

How so? Is a pilot not reading a measured speed via an instrument through a gauge/screen? I often times on a flight listen to the pilots and ATC when available. They are constantly referring to speed and altitude changes. Are they not reading said data from a screen/gauge. As well, their verbal statements regarding such are reflected on the screen in front of me. By your argument the speedometer in my car is just me reading a number on a screen and is not a measure of my speed.

It is a number shown to you on a screen without any explanation of how it was obtained. You are not in the cockpit reading an instrument. They can put any number they want there.

381 mph. See?

So is the number shown on the screen in the cockpit without any explanation of how it was obtained just a number with no meaning or accuracy? Does the speedometer in my car also need to show the mechanics and formulas used to derive the speed it displays?

As well, I can hear the pilot say to ATC, "Copy, to X knots and X altitude..." And sure enough, the screen in the headrest in front of me will ultimately show those X's.

Oh yeah? You hear someone say that same number. Okay. I am unimpressed.

You have never seen the number in the cockpit and verified it was the number on the screen, have you? Or are you a pilot?
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

- Tom Bishop

We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

- Pete Svarrior

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Re: The effect FE has on me
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2019, 08:29:37 PM »
Oh, so you don’t actually know the speed, but rather assume the number shown to you is accurate.

Well then, I’d sure like to play you in poker :)

How would anyone 'know' the speed without instrumentation of some sort? If I'm a pilot (or a passenger) I assume they know their speed/distance/fuel consumption through instrumentation/calculation or we all wind up in the drink. Unless of course you want to argue that we have no knowledge as to or any way to measure how fast something is moving. I'm game.

While it is certainly possible to measure a speed, reading a number on a screen is not it. That’s all I’m saying.

How so? Is a pilot not reading a measured speed via an instrument through a gauge/screen? I often times on a flight listen to the pilots and ATC when available. They are constantly referring to speed and altitude changes. Are they not reading said data from a screen/gauge. As well, their verbal statements regarding such are reflected on the screen in front of me. By your argument the speedometer in my car is just me reading a number on a screen and is not a measure of my speed.

It is a number shown to you on a screen without any explanation of how it was obtained. You are not in the cockpit reading an instrument. They can put any number they want there.

381 mph. See?

So is the number shown on the screen in the cockpit without any explanation of how it was obtained just a number with no meaning or accuracy? Does the speedometer in my car also need to show the mechanics and formulas used to derive the speed it displays?

As well, I can hear the pilot say to ATC, "Copy, to X knots and X altitude..." And sure enough, the screen in the headrest in front of me will ultimately show those X's.

Oh yeah? You hear someone say that same number. Okay. I am unimpressed.

You have never seen the number in the cockpit and verified it was the number on the screen, have you? Or are you a pilot?

I wouldn't say just 'someone', that 'someone' would be the pilot/ATC. And the seemingly random number they say shows on my screen as well.

So far, your argument is that unless everyone is shown exactly how a number presented on a screen/gauge is derived/calculated, the number is meaningless/inaccurate. Now that's an unimpressive argument.

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: The effect FE has on me
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2019, 11:02:14 PM »
Are you implying that planes don't actually fly that fast and therefore further implying that flight distances with the known flight times therefore equate to shorter flight distances?

I can personally say that I have calculated the top speed of different airplanes based on fuel combustion and engine power, thrust, aerodynamics, etc. Its was a great course in college. Those calculations match what is actually flown to a certain degree.
BobLawBlah.

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Offline QED

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Re: The effect FE has on me
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2019, 11:35:39 PM »
Jim,

I don’t HAVE an argument. You do. I am asking for reliable evidence to support your argument, and I am trying to help you formulate it.

Is there any way you can think of to estimate the distance you are traveling in a plane? Imagine there are no clouds, and you are flying over farm country.
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

- Tom Bishop

We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

- Pete Svarrior