[inquisitive]

Mathematics. You never did those sort of equations in middle school math classes?

An estimate based on mathematics would require knowledge of all variables involved.

The distance is unknown in this excercise; and ships and planes don't know how fast they are traveling, except in reference to an external coordinate system that assumes a Round Earth.

So speed measured over earth is OK, but cannot be used to determine distances over seas?  Which part of the WGS84 model do you disagree with?

[xenotolerance]

Tom has repeatedly claimed that planes and ships do not know their own speed. This is farcical, and disqualifies him as a contributor to any substantial discussion of the subject. Let him go ignored.

Before GPS, which by existing debunks flat Earth belief but let us avoid the rabbit hole, sailors navigated the old fashioned way . Measurement with a sextant does not assume anything about the shape of the Earth, instead just using what can be observed. It's a zetetic's dream, really.

Only, taken together, the sum of knowledge of celestial navigation proves the Earth is a globe, so it's suddenly really not.

[nickrulercreator]

ships and planes don't know how fast they are traveling, except in reference to an external coordinate system that assumes a Round Earth.

Are you serious?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitot_tube
http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae400.cfm

[Frocious]

Mathematics. You never did those sort of equations in middle school math classes?

An estimate based on mathematics would require knowledge of all variables involved.

The distance is unknown in this excercise; and ships and planes don't know how fast they are traveling, except in reference to an external coordinate system that assumes a Round Earth.

How far are you comfortable measuring? Are american football fields 100 yards long, or are we not sure?

Football fields are measured with wheeled devices, which are accurate for measuring distances.

So you are confident that we know distances across land, but not water?

Is the length of the transatlantic cable (2,226 miles) in question?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_telegraph_cable

I feel silly self-quoting here, but I finished reading that wild 20-pager. The math in there is absolutely sound, but that won't matter much to an FE'r.

I want to reiterate my question regarding the transatlantic cable, however, and incorporate some of that discussion.

Tom, let's say you are right -- the cable company had no idea how much cable they would need. They continually brought out new spools (if the distance was longer than expected) or had plenty of cable left over if it were shorter.

After successfully laying the cable, wouldn't they know how much cable they laid? From there, would't we have an accurate measurement across the Atlantic to base all subsequent measurements off of?

[Tom Bishop]

After successfully laying the cable, wouldn't they know how much cable they laid?

Yes. But what makes you think that they would tell you?

[Tom Bishop]

ships and planes don't know how fast they are traveling, except in reference to an external coordinate system that assumes a Round Earth.

Are you serious?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitot_tube
http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae400.cfm

Airspeed devices are unreliable, as they are measuring fluids moving within fluids, and are not used in navigation. The knowledge of how fast air is locally passing over the wings mainly used for making banking maneuvers and such.

[pablozablo]

Airspeed devices are unreliable, as they are measuring fluids moving within fluids, and are not used in navigation. The knowledge of how fast air is locally passing over the wings mainly used for making banking maneuvers and such.

Whatever you think about airspeed measurement, clocks are pretty reliable. They tell us it takes a similar time to travel between Sydney and Dubai/USA/Chile. And similar times back. And those times correspond exactly with their relative distances on a globe. I've raised this repeatedly during the past few weeks but not seen a glimmer of an answer. So instead of trying to blind us with pseudoscience, how on (a flat) earth can those times be so similar?

[Tom Bishop]

Airspeed devices are unreliable, as they are measuring fluids moving within fluids, and are not used in navigation. The knowledge of how fast air is locally passing over the wings mainly used for making banking maneuvers and such.

Whatever you think about airspeed measurement, clocks are pretty reliable. They tell us it takes a similar time to travel between Sydney and Dubai/USA/Chile. And similar times back. And those times correspond exactly with their relative distances on a globe. I've raised this repeatedly during the past few weeks but not seen a glimmer of an answer. So instead of trying to blind us with pseudoscience, how on (a flat) earth can those times be so similar?

Firstly, the times are not similar in each direction, since one way is in a jet stream and one is going against the jet stream.

Secondly, there is no Flat Earth map. The map you are referencing is for visualization purposes only. The particular flight path you are referencing doesn't really tell us anything.

[Curious Squirrel]

After successfully laying the cable, wouldn't they know how much cable they laid?

Yes. But what makes you think that they would tell you?

Ah, so they're part of the conspiracy too! What does not telling people the correct length get them?

[Tom Bishop]

After successfully laying the cable, wouldn't they know how much cable they laid?

Yes. But what makes you think that they would tell you?

Ah, so they're part of the conspiracy too! What does not telling people the correct length get them?

Where did I say anything about conspiracy? You seem to think that the captain of a cable ship would have telephoned you to tell you how much line he had left. I say that he probably would not have done that.

[pablozablo]

Firstly, the times are not similar in each direction, since on way is in a jet stream and one is going against the jet stream.

Secondly, there is no Flat Earth map. The map you are referencing is for visualization purposes only. The particular flight path you are referencing doesn't really tell us anything.

Ahhh - so you admit the "jet stream" must have a "direction" relative to the flight directions, and the effect of the "jet stream direction" relative to those locations also fully supports the comparable flight times on the round earth.
Not similar? It's hardly 24 hrs one way vs 30 mins the other. Sydney to LA circa 14hrs vs 15hrs. Sydney to Dubai circa 14.5 hrs vs 14hrs. Sydney to Chile 14hrs v 12.5. That's the one that would have the wildest distances in a flat earth. You are conceding that round earth works.

[Tom Bishop]

Firstly, the times are not similar in each direction, since on way is in a jet stream and one is going against the jet stream.

Secondly, there is no Flat Earth map. The map you are referencing is for visualization purposes only. The particular flight path you are referencing doesn't really tell us anything.

Ahhh - so you admit the "jet stream" must have a "direction" relative to the flight directions, and the effect of the "jet stream direction" relative to those locations also fully supports the comparable flight times on the round earth.
Not similar? It's hardly 24 hrs one way vs 30 mins the other. Sydney to LA circa 14hrs vs 15hrs. Sydney to Dubai circa 14.5 hrs vs 14hrs. Sydney to Chile 14hrs v 12.5. That's the one that would have the wildest distances in a flat earth. You are conceding that round earth works.

That's nice. But no one created that Flat Earth visualization with any data. It is used for visualization purposes only. If you have anything tangible to contribute for us you should let us know.

[StinkyOne]

ships and planes don't know how fast they are traveling, except in reference to an external coordinate system that assumes a Round Earth.

Are you serious?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitot_tube
http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae400.cfm

Airspeed devices are unreliable, as they are measuring fluids moving within fluids, and are not used in navigation. The knowledge of how fast air is locally passing over the wings mainly used for making banking maneuvers and such.

Unreliable is not true. There are also ground speed calculators. Further, radar can be used to determine an aircraft's speed. This has all been explained to you before. You choose to not to believe it not because you can't make this info work in FEH. Choosing to be ignorant is very sad.

[Curious Squirrel]

After successfully laying the cable, wouldn't they know how much cable they laid?

Yes. But what makes you think that they would tell you?

Ah, so they're part of the conspiracy too! What does not telling people the correct length get them?

Where did I say anything about conspiracy? You seem to think that the captain of a cable ship would have telephoned you to tell you how much line he had left. I say that he probably would not have done that.

No need to have personally said a thing, but we have records and more on this. If they only used X cable, why would it not be in the reports? That implies a conspiracy of some kind to hind the actual length used.

[Frocious]

After successfully laying the cable, wouldn't they know how much cable they laid?

Yes. But what makes you think that they would tell you?

They don't have to tell me. They have to tell the people they work for, who have to tell the financers backing them.

In addition, the manufacturer of the cable needs to know how much to make and how much raw material to obtain. Then the shipping company needs to know how much freight they are shipping.

I'm sure i am missing several other steps/groups of people in this assessment.

Why would any group of those people feel a need to cover up the numbers?

[pablozablo]

That's nice. But no one created that Flat Earth visualization with any data. It is used for visualization purposes only. If you have anything tangible to contribute for us you should let us know.

I get it - you're a funny guy. I just gave you a load of data and you deliberately ignore it. You have no interest in understanding the structure or shape of the world - as you said you do not care about Sydney or Dubai - and why should you? It would ruin your puckish facade of preaching the flat earth. What is a map other than a visualization of the real world?    Your wind up baited me - nice one. Funny guy.

[Tom Bishop]

No need to have personally said a thing, but we have records and more on this. If they only used X cable, why would it not be in the reports?

What reports? Are you claiming that the captain of the cable ship handed you his reports?

[Tumeni]

What reports? Are you claiming that the captain of the cable ship handed you his reports?

As he pointed out above, there wouldn't be any way to complete the exercise without some form of paper trail with regards to how much cable was supplied to the ship, how much they used, how much was paid for, etc.

With this paper trail, someone, somewhere knew how much cable had been laid.  Agreed, these records may have disappeared, or at least be difficult to find, but ....

http://amhistory.si.edu/archives/AC0073.html#ref67

(Only took five minutes to find) - engineer's reports, cash books, ledgers. There may well be details in there of how much cable was used, etc.

Unfortunately, I'm on the wrong continent to go visit and peruse these ledgers for myself; would you like to do the empirical research, if you're in the vicinity?

[Tom Bishop]

What reports? Are you claiming that the captain of the cable ship handed you his reports?

As he pointed out above, there wouldn't be any way to complete the exercise without some form of paper trail with regards to how much cable was supplied to the ship, how much they used, how much was paid for, etc.

With this paper trail, someone, somewhere knew how much cable had been laid.  Agreed, these records may have disappeared, or at least be difficult to find, but ....

http://amhistory.si.edu/archives/AC0073.html#ref67

(Only took five minutes to find) - engineer's reports, cash books, ledgers. There may well be details in there of how much cable was used, etc.

Unfortunately, I'm on the wrong continent to go visit and peruse these ledgers for myself; would you like to do the empirical research, if you're in the vicinity?

If the captain of the ship didn't hand you his reports, and you don't seem to have them available, then how do you guys already know what they say? 

[inquisitive]

What reports? Are you claiming that the captain of the cable ship handed you his reports?

As he pointed out above, there wouldn't be any way to complete the exercise without some form of paper trail with regards to how much cable was supplied to the ship, how much they used, how much was paid for, etc.

With this paper trail, someone, somewhere knew how much cable had been laid.  Agreed, these records may have disappeared, or at least be difficult to find, but ....

http://amhistory.si.edu/archives/AC0073.html#ref67

(Only took five minutes to find) - engineer's reports, cash books, ledgers. There may well be details in there of how much cable was used, etc.

Unfortunately, I'm on the wrong continent to go visit and peruse these ledgers for myself; would you like to do the empirical research, if you're in the vicinity?

If the captain of the ship didn't hand you his reports, and you don't seem to have them available, then how do you guys already know what they say? 

Strange you show no interest in determining the size and the shape of the earth by not describing a method.