Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #80 on: August 17, 2019, 05:18:43 AM »

I am of the opinion our senses are the only thing that is real.

After that, it then becomes one of subjective interpretation of what exactly was sensed.

So then there is no objective reality and RE is as true as FE.

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #81 on: August 17, 2019, 05:58:26 AM »
A circling flat earth sun would never reach the horizon and as it moved away from the observer it would get smaller and smaller like all things do that recede from an observer. The sun does not.



Stack,

That image is a wonderful concept of how the sun would never reach the horizon in a vacuum. Unfortunately we don't live in a vacuum. Do you have a demonstration of how where the sun would appear that even makes the slightest attempt at factoring in any sort of refraction among the layers of the atmosphere?

How do you know refraction even exists?

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #82 on: August 17, 2019, 06:21:46 AM »
lackey, all you're doing is speculating about how things could possibly be faked.
Do you have any evidence that it is being faked.
And why do you find the concept of space travel so implausible?
Rocket technology demonstrably exists, we've have powerful rockets since the 1940s
Laika was put into low earth orbit in 1957, Gagarin. This technology isn't even that new. Why is the ISS so implausible to you 50 years later?
Yes I have presented evidence.

There is no distinguishable difference between the instances of acknowledged (RE and FE alike) video fiction and those purported to be of video reality in this instance.

That is called evidence.


That is a classic example of circular reasoning, with a big heaping helping of hypocrisy thrown in.  You have to know that movie versions are fake to know that ISS versions are fake...but you only "know" the movie versions are fake because that is what Big Movie wants you to believe. For all you know they actually went into space and filmed it in real time because it was cheaper and just said it was done on computers so everyone would think they were so talented.  You weren't there to watch them create the pictures, so by your logic, you can't really know they are fabricated

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #83 on: August 17, 2019, 06:30:23 AM »
lackey, all you're doing is speculating about how things could possibly be faked.
Do you have any evidence that it is being faked.
And why do you find the concept of space travel so implausible?
Rocket technology demonstrably exists, we've have powerful rockets since the 1940s
Laika was put into low earth orbit in 1957, Gagarin. This technology isn't even that new. Why is the ISS so implausible to you 50 years later?
Yes I have presented evidence.

There is no distinguishable difference between the instances of acknowledged (RE and FE alike) video fiction and those purported to be of video reality in this instance.

That is called evidence.

If you read my posts earlier, I do not deny the reality of an object labeled the ISS. I do not know what that object is.
IMO there's no distinguishable difference between you and non-human text. I guess this means you don't exist. Solid evidence right?

Anyway there is a difference, you can look up the actors names from the big bang theory show. Astronauts aren't publicly listed or acknowledged as actors, instead it's a career they've years trained for.
Are you stating that actors do not train or that being an astronaut and an actor somehow results in different abilities to portray supposed weightless characteristics on screen?

In regard to your writing analogy, how does that relate to a moving picture on screen?
There's a sure way to find out the truth... Become an astronaut. Do something instead of crying fake at everything you can't see 10 feet in front of you. I mean heck I've never been to Japan but I know the place exists. I've never met a Samurai and never will but I know they were a thing. I can't gain access to military bases but I know they have military staff inside. I've never been to space but I know astronauts have. I've not been on the ISS but I know it exists.
I don't cry fake fake at everything I can see 10 feet in front of me.

That is unsubstantiated.

I could now write you believe everything you hear, but that merely casts a worthless stone your way.

I only wrote it to demonstrate exactly the falsehood of what you wrote.
But hey, how could you possibly know if you haven't been there or seen it with your own eyes right? Oh yea photos and real people accounts of it... Just like everything else you haven't seen for yourself.
I know The Big Bang Theoryis a television show.

I know the actors Jim Parsons, Johnny Galecki, Kaley Cuoco, Simon Helberg, and Kunal Nayyar, appear on the show. Real people, real accounts of their being a television show and there was a series of video episodes accounting for time that the real person, Simon Helberg , portraying Howard Wolowitz, spent in space aboard the ISS.

A real person portraying a fictional character spending fictional time in fictional space aboard the fictional ISS, all captured on video.

That admitted fiction looks NO DIFFERENT than the SUPPOSED NON-FICTIONAL VIDEO of real people on what is supposed to be the real ISS.
I think people being on the ISS is more plausible than billions of people being tricked into thinking the earth is a completely different shape and that space travel doesn't exist. And if the earth somehow isn't spheroid, it doesn't default to being a flat disk, what stops it from being every other shape? Why should the earth be flat? I mean if you can take a close up of a basketball and see a lumpy but overall flat surface, does a basketball default to a flat disk for an ant?
Well, there isn't any ancient culture claiming the earth to be a square or a rectangle, for one.

Do you know these people, met them, gone to a taping of the show?  Unless you have, then by your logic you can't really know anything about what you claim to know.

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Offline Tim Alphabeaver

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #84 on: August 17, 2019, 11:27:54 PM »
How do you know refraction even exists?
Because I paid attention in physics class in high school. I think pretty much every school is going to do an experimental demonstration of snell's law, I guess you missed out.
**I move away from the infinite flat plane to breathe in

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #85 on: August 18, 2019, 12:25:28 AM »
Because I paid attention in physics class in high school. I think pretty much every school is going to do an experimental demonstration of snell's law, I guess you missed out.

So then you trust science, when it is convenient and confirms what you already believe.

jerinr1

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #86 on: August 18, 2019, 12:34:52 PM »
If you are asking for FET evidence that the earth is flat, a good place to start would be the wiki in this site.

If you are asking what motives bring people to believe that the earth is flat despite overwhelming evidence against it, I could think of at least two:
- Religious convictions. Some passages of the Bible seem to suggest that the earth is flat or fixed to a position.
- Appeal of conspiracy theories. That would be the psychological explanation.


Kindly quote the verse or the chapter where the Earth is mentioned to be flat in the Bible. Nowhere has it mentioned that the Earth is flat.


totallackey

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #87 on: August 19, 2019, 01:13:38 PM »
lackey, all you're doing is speculating about how things could possibly be faked.
Do you have any evidence that it is being faked.
And why do you find the concept of space travel so implausible?
Rocket technology demonstrably exists, we've have powerful rockets since the 1940s
Laika was put into low earth orbit in 1957, Gagarin. This technology isn't even that new. Why is the ISS so implausible to you 50 years later?
Yes I have presented evidence.

There is no distinguishable difference between the instances of acknowledged (RE and FE alike) video fiction and those purported to be of video reality in this instance.

That is called evidence.


That is a classic example of circular reasoning, with a big heaping helping of hypocrisy thrown in.  You have to know that movie versions are fake to know that ISS versions are fake...but you only "know" the movie versions are fake because that is what Big Movie wants you to believe. For all you know they actually went into space and filmed it in real time because it was cheaper and just said it was done on computers so everyone would think they were so talented.  You weren't there to watch them create the pictures, so by your logic, you can't really know they are fabricated
Do you know these people, met them, gone to a taping of the show?  Unless you have, then by your logic you can't really know anything about what you claim to know.
So, you have personally been to a point in outer space and know first hand that it exists as depicted on screen, regardless whether self-proclaimed fictional portrayal or non-fictional portrayal.

I really don't think you have a valid point here.

I do not need to know the people involved. I need only to provide the reported names and what I have seen.I have done that for both the reportedly fictional and reportedly non-fictional video presentations of people on the ISS.

It is all fake is my point, so no...no circular reasoning...pretty linear thinking...
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 01:17:24 PM by totallackey »

totallackey

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #88 on: August 19, 2019, 01:19:00 PM »
If you are asking for FET evidence that the earth is flat, a good place to start would be the wiki in this site.

If you are asking what motives bring people to believe that the earth is flat despite overwhelming evidence against it, I could think of at least two:
- Religious convictions. Some passages of the Bible seem to suggest that the earth is flat or fixed to a position.
- Appeal of conspiracy theories. That would be the psychological explanation.


Kindly quote the verse or the chapter where the Earth is mentioned to be flat in the Bible. Nowhere has it mentioned that the Earth is flat.
He has not written the Bible mentioned the Earth is flat.

He wrote the Bible seemed to "suggest," the Earth is flat.

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #89 on: August 19, 2019, 02:16:21 PM »
If you are asking for FET evidence that the earth is flat, a good place to start would be the wiki in this site.

If you are asking what motives bring people to believe that the earth is flat despite overwhelming evidence against it, I could think of at least two:
- Religious convictions. Some passages of the Bible seem to suggest that the earth is flat or fixed to a position.
- Appeal of conspiracy theories. That would be the psychological explanation.


Kindly quote the verse or the chapter where the Earth is mentioned to be flat in the Bible. Nowhere has it mentioned that the Earth is flat.
He has not written the Bible mentioned the Earth is flat.

He wrote the Bible seemed to "suggest," the Earth is flat.

Well, where does the bible seem to suggest the earth is flat?
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #90 on: August 19, 2019, 03:05:35 PM »


Quote
So, you have personally been to a point in outer space and know first hand that it exists as depicted on screen, regardless whether self-proclaimed fictional portrayal or non-fictional portrayal.

I really don't think you have a valid point here.

I do not need to know the people involved. I need only to provide the reported names and what I have seen.I have done that for both the reportedly fictional and reportedly non-fictional video presentations of people on the ISS.

It is all fake is my point, so no...no circular reasoning...pretty linear thinking...

So I have to personally go to space and validate the accuracy instead of relying on what I have told, but you don't.  I can't take what is claimed at face value, but you can.  If you don't know the people who claim to have made the CGI or witnessed them doing it, you don't know what they did any more than I can know what space looks like without going there.  Quite a double standard, don't you think?

And yes, your logic is the very definition of circular...you can't know something is true, unless you already know its true.

totallackey

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #91 on: August 19, 2019, 03:39:32 PM »


Quote
So, you have personally been to a point in outer space and know first hand that it exists as depicted on screen, regardless whether self-proclaimed fictional portrayal or non-fictional portrayal.

I really don't think you have a valid point here.

I do not need to know the people involved. I need only to provide the reported names and what I have seen.I have done that for both the reportedly fictional and reportedly non-fictional video presentations of people on the ISS.

It is all fake is my point, so no...no circular reasoning...pretty linear thinking...

So I have to personally go to space and validate the accuracy instead of relying on what I have told, but you don't.  I can't take what is claimed at face value, but you can.  If you don't know the people who claim to have made the CGI or witnessed them doing it, you don't know what they did any more than I can know what space looks like without going there.  Quite a double standard, don't you think?

And yes, your logic is the very definition of circular...you can't know something is true, unless you already know its true.
Let me write it out again, for perhaps further clarity.

I know and you know that some people in the television industry produced an entertainment show entitled The Big Bang Theory. I know and you know the show presented, according to what the producers stated, were fictional representations of the character Howard Wolowitz, performing in the role of scientist/astronaut onboard the ISS, on the television show.

I know and you know that NASA has produced, according to NASA statements, audio/video feeds from astronauts onboard the ISS.

I have not stated that I know either is real or fake.

I have stated that given the undetectable difference I see between the two, and given we have the ability to produce such video from the relative comfort of an office, I believe the simplest explanation is that both are fake.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #92 on: August 19, 2019, 03:45:08 PM »
How do you know refraction even exists?

First off I don't know that it exists. It's impossible to know something is 100% true. I BELIEVE it exists because evidence has been presented that it does exist. I've personally experienced it on many occasions.


Here's evidence that supports that refraction does exist.

newhorizons

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #93 on: August 19, 2019, 04:19:43 PM »
Quote
First off I don't know that it exists. It's impossible to know something is 100% true.

So what criteria or conditions need to exist then for you to say you actually know something?  The fact that I have been using refracting telescopes which rely on the concept known as refraction of light to work gives me a clue about its existence.

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #94 on: August 19, 2019, 04:35:48 PM »
Quote
First off I don't know that it exists. It's impossible to know something is 100% true.

So what criteria or conditions need to exist then for you to say you actually know something?  The fact that I have been using refracting telescopes which rely on the concept known as refraction of light to work gives me a clue about its existence.

Philosophy is no place for pedantry..... philosophically there is no way to "know" anything. Practically, we do know things, and we must live our lives based on this knowledge or you will just live in a black box.
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

newhorizons

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #95 on: August 19, 2019, 04:53:36 PM »
I'm not the one questioning whether refraction exists or not.  I am simply telling iamcpc that I have been familiar with what I recognise as the refraction of light for over 40 years so I don't understand his need to question whether refraction exists or not.

If what I recognise as the refraction of light actually isn't refraction after all then perhaps he could explain to me how refracting telescopes work.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 05:40:48 PM by newhorizons »

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #96 on: August 19, 2019, 05:39:57 PM »
I'm not the one questioning whether refraction exists or not.  I am simply telling iamcpc that I have been familiar with what I recognise as the refraction of light for over 40 years so I don't understand his need to question whether refraction exists or not. If it doesn't then perhaps he could explain to me how refracting telescopes work.

I believe my comment was directed more toward iamcpc, since they were the ones to argue that it is impossible to know something 100%. I don't know that I am not the only conscious being, but that doesn't stop me from making friends and having meaningful relationships, for instance. So claiming that you can't know something for absolute sure is no argument for or against anything.
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #97 on: August 19, 2019, 05:50:24 PM »
Quote
First off I don't know that it exists. It's impossible to know something is 100% true.

So what criteria or conditions need to exist then for you to say you actually know something?  The fact that I have been using refracting telescopes which rely on the concept known as refraction of light to work gives me a clue about its existence.

It gives you a clue about it's existence. It does not PROVE it. In the event that we are just a giant simulation on a super advanced civilization's super computer refraction does not really "exist"

I guess for me to say that i know 100% that refraction exists is virtually impossible. What if a person is born and, when his brain creates images out of "refracted" light beams they don't appear out of place our out of position at all. That person has a much more significantly advanced visual cortex than your average human.  To him the idea of "refraction" would be utter absurdity and we would all be insane for believing such a thing.


Remember this dress? Half the people who saw it said the dress was blue and black. The other half of people who saw it said the dress was white and gold. What is the TRUTH? Well the truth is that people have different visual cortex's, different eyes, and different optical nerves and see different things.




Remember this? A lot of people heard "Yanny" and many people heard "Laurel".

What is the TRUTH. What is the voice saying?






I believe my comment was directed more toward iamcpc, since they were the ones to argue that it is impossible to know something 100%. I don't know that I am not the only conscious being, but that doesn't stop me from making friends and having meaningful relationships, for instance. So claiming that you can't know something for absolute sure is no argument for or against anything.

This is not an argument. Someone asked what would need to happen for me to go from believing that refraction is real to KNOWING that refraction is real and the answer to that question is very complicated.



I'm not the one questioning whether refraction exists or not.  I am simply telling iamcpc that I have been familiar with what I recognise as the refraction of light for over 40 years so I don't understand his need to question whether refraction exists or not.

If what I recognise as the refraction of light actually isn't refraction after all then perhaps he could explain to me how refracting telescopes work.

I've already explained that I believe there is a lot of evidence which suggest that it is very likely that images made in the average human visual cortex are affected by the path the photons take before the strike the optic nerve.

Do I KNOW 100% that this is the case? No I do not.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 05:54:11 PM by iamcpc »

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #98 on: August 19, 2019, 06:23:15 PM »

Remember this dress? Half the people who saw it said the dress was blue and black. The other half of people who saw it said the dress was white and gold. What is the TRUTH? Well the truth is that people have different visual cortex's, different eyes, and different optical nerves and see different things.



Remember this? A lot of people heard "Yanny" and many people heard "Laurel".

What is the TRUTH. What is the voice saying?

Regarding the dress:

The TRUTH is that neither are correct, for colors do not exist in reality.

Regarding the audio recording:

The TRUTH is that each individual is not created equally. We each hear different pitches at varying decibels. This audio was recorded with both "yanny" and "lorel" dubbed over each other. Whichever you hear is dependent on what decibel you hear the corresponding pitch.

To answer the question of "What is truth?" requires a different thread.

To answer the question of whether or not refraction exists.... it exists in as much as light waves exist. However, each individual perception of refraction will change. This is why we have different prescription glasses.
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

jerinr1

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #99 on: August 19, 2019, 06:58:52 PM »
If you are asking for FET evidence that the earth is flat, a good place to start would be the wiki in this site.

If you are asking what motives bring people to believe that the earth is flat despite overwhelming evidence against it, I could think of at least two:
- Religious convictions. Some passages of the Bible seem to suggest that the earth is flat or fixed to a position.
- Appeal of conspiracy theories. That would be the psychological explanation.


Kindly quote the verse or the chapter where the Earth is mentioned to be flat in the Bible. Nowhere has it mentioned that the Earth is flat.
He has not written the Bible mentioned the Earth is flat.

He wrote the Bible seemed to "suggest," the Earth is flat.

Well, where does the bible seem to suggest the earth is flat?

My point exactly.