[Rama Set]

I don't understand how God simply making his presence  known to modern humans would turn us all into robots. Care to elaborate on this point?

Well, it would certainly deny our free will, at least to a point. If God were literally standing over us as the Divine Taskmaster, forcing us to obey, would that not be a loss of free will?

We more than likely do not have free will whether there is a god or not, so that is moot, but it is important to note that there is a big difference between "making your presence known" and being a "Divine Taskmaster[sic], forcing us to obey".

I don't know how you come up with the idea that we more than likely do not have free will, but ok.

Neuroscientific studies, mostly through fMRI have shown that our perception of making a choice is mostly artificial and that we make decisions well before we think we do, often whole seconds in advance.  There is some interesting reading around this.

Some of us, of course, would argue that God makes his presence known in many ways, practically every day.

Have you ever watched the cycle of life from birth to maturity in a bird's nest? Or observed a caterpillar become a butterfly? You see, to those of us who believe that there is no way this all occurred by accident, these are examples of God's presence.

Right, we call you folks Creationists and wonder why you ignore all the evidence for evolution.

One could take it further. Ever have miracles happen to you personally? Ever live when you should not have? I know I have. Ever survive against all odds, when you know damned well you should have paid the piper?

I am extremely suspicious of your ability to discern when you "should have paid the piper".  You likely have massive cognitive gaps between what happened and what was likely to happen.  I mean, can you tell me what the actual odds of you living were?  Is it more or less likely than say, winning the lottery?  Because that happens extremely regularly and I am willing to wager that incidences likely to cause human fatality happen much more frquently, only increasing the odds that something unlikely happens.  It would be a miracle if nothing unlikely ever happened, moreso than something unlikely happening.

These are signs that God is with us. Now, you are going to argue with me, and that is fine. Go ahead. Remember, the reason God does not make himself directly known to Jews today is because the prophecy departed from Israel after Malachi. As far as other nations and peoples, I neither know nor care whether he has made himself known to them or not.

What are the signs apart from what you have mentioned previously in this post?

But, whether he has or not, remember that Jews were chosen of God to be a Royal Priesthood set apart unto the nations. We are a priesthood people, chosen to bring monotheism to the world. So, even if other nations have had revelations from God, they have not been along the level that we have had.

Ooook.  Other than thinking that is a pretty narcissistic and solipsistic comment, I am not sure what to make of it.  You know that every religion claims to have the privileged relationship with their God, so in that respect you are as special as every other religious sect.

We are especially dedicated to being the intercessors between God and man. I encourage you all to read Zechariah chapter 8 for more references on this.

I hope that works out for you.  If there is a God, I could care less if he chose you to intercede on my behalf. 

[Rushy]

As I have indicated before, not all Jews even believe in an Afterlife. So your point is a non-point, except perhaps for the one on top of your head.

I can cite hundreds of examples in the bible where god punishes people for not doing what he told them to do. If that isn't a taskmaster in your mind, then what is?

[Vindictus]

I don't care what you want. She's an anti-Semitic, uninformed, useless "Palestinian"-bought political whore. And the website you listed on the so-called bdsmovement is even more indication of stupid is as stupid does. Since "Palestinians" are not citizens of Israel, they do not have the rights of citizens, making any comparisons to apartheid disingenuous at best. And I LOVE the genocide accusation. 47 years and they have multiplied by four times! Wow! Jews must really suck at genocide!

So in conclusion, she's an ass-hat. Nothing more need be said.

Ok, so this is just as petty as I thought. Much better response!

[DuckDodgers]

If you have knowledge of a horrific event about to take place and do nothing about it doesn't that make you partially responsible for its occurrence, particularly if it is within your power to stop it?  Wouldn't that make God partially responsible for a lot of atrocities due to his omnipotence and omnipresence?

[EnigmaZV]

I don't understand how God simply making his presence  known to modern humans would turn us all into robots. Care to elaborate on this point?

Well, it would certainly deny our free will, at least to a point. If God were literally standing over us as the Divine Taskmaster, forcing us to obey, would that not be a loss of free will?

It's true, Moses had no free will.

[Yonah ben Amittai]

If Jews were meant to bring monotheism to the world, why did Christians do it a million times better while Jews don't even want others to join?

Also, yes Jews suck at genocide.  You couldn't even wipe out one group of people during the bronze age.  They vanished from evolution.  Jews are slower than evolution.

And Christians got their monotheism from us, and then messed it up with the Trinity. So your point is...?

As I have indicated before, not all Jews even believe in an Afterlife. So your point is a non-point, except perhaps for the one on top of your head.

Is this some kind of point? Is there an afterlife or not?

Depends on who you ask.

I don't understand how God simply making his presence  known to modern humans would turn us all into robots. Care to elaborate on this point?

Well, it would certainly deny our free will, at least to a point. If God were literally standing over us as the Divine Taskmaster, forcing us to obey, would that not be a loss of free will?

We more than likely do not have free will whether there is a god or not, so that is moot, but it is important to note that there is a big difference between "making your presence known" and being a "Divine Taskmaster[sic], forcing us to obey".

I don't know how you come up with the idea that we more than likely do not have free will, but ok.

Neuroscientific studies, mostly through fMRI have shown that our perception of making a choice is mostly artificial and that we make decisions well before we think we do, often whole seconds in advance.  There is some interesting reading around this.

I suspect there is some severe misreading of data going on. We still have A LOT of study to do yet before we truly comprehend the human brain, and even more before we comprehend the connection between brain and mind. So until that work is done, I'll take these tests with a grain of salt.

Some of us, of course, would argue that God makes his presence known in many ways, practically every day.

Have you ever watched the cycle of life from birth to maturity in a bird's nest? Or observed a caterpillar become a butterfly? You see, to those of us who believe that there is no way this all occurred by accident, these are examples of God's presence.

Right, we call you folks Creationists and wonder why you ignore all the evidence for evolution.

I never said I was a creationist. It would take an ASS to ASS-ume that.

One could take it further. Ever have miracles happen to you personally? Ever live when you should not have? I know I have. Ever survive against all odds, when you know damned well you should have paid the piper?

I am extremely suspicious of your ability to discern when you "should have paid the piper".  You likely have massive cognitive gaps between what happened and what was likely to happen.  I mean, can you tell me what the actual odds of you living were?  Is it more or less likely than say, winning the lottery?  Because that happens extremely regularly and I am willing to wager that incidences likely to cause human fatality happen much more frquently, only increasing the odds that something unlikely happens.  It would be a miracle if nothing unlikely ever happened, moreso than something unlikely happening.

These are signs that God is with us. Now, you are going to argue with me, and that is fine. Go ahead. Remember, the reason God does not make himself directly known to Jews today is because the prophecy departed from Israel after Malachi. As far as other nations and peoples, I neither know nor care whether he has made himself known to them or not.

What are the signs apart from what you have mentioned previously in this post?

But, whether he has or not, remember that Jews were chosen of God to be a Royal Priesthood set apart unto the nations. We are a priesthood people, chosen to bring monotheism to the world. So, even if other nations have had revelations from God, they have not been along the level that we have had.

Ooook.  Other than thinking that is a pretty narcissistic and solipsistic comment, I am not sure what to make of it.  You know that every religion claims to have the privileged relationship with their God, so in that respect you are as special as every other religious sect.

That comment is simply irrelevant.

We are especially dedicated to being the intercessors between God and man. I encourage you all to read Zechariah chapter 8 for more references on this.

I hope that works out for you.  If there is a God, I could care less if he chose you to intercede on my behalf. 

Also irrelevant.

If you have knowledge of a horrific event about to take place and do nothing about it doesn't that make you partially responsible for its occurrence, particularly if it is within your power to stop it?  Wouldn't that make God partially responsible for a lot of atrocities due to his omnipotence and omnipresence?

An interesting thought, no doubt. But again, I think you run into the problem of denial of free will. But Duck, I think you have at least hit on something that is worthy of thought, unlike the rest of the babblers in here. I'm a bit more impressed  by you than by the rest. Good work.

I don't understand how God simply making his presence  known to modern humans would turn us all into robots. Care to elaborate on this point?

Well, it would certainly deny our free will, at least to a point. If God were literally standing over us as the Divine Taskmaster, forcing us to obey, would that not be a loss of free will?

It's true, Moses had no free will.

I don't think that was quite the situation. But, it is interesting that you put it in that way. Before the Burning Bush, Moses did protest to God that he could not do what God asked of him because he was "slow of speech and slow of tongue". God basically told him to shut up, and that he would send Aaron his brother along to help. So, I suppose it really depends on how you take all that. Calvin would have said that we had no free will. Luther would have equivocated a bit. But Jews have never doubted that man has free will.

[Rama Set]

You assume that neuroscientists are misreading their data?  Why is that?  Is it the published papers that make you think that or is it that it doesn't mesh with your worldview? 

It is not a very big assumption to call you a creationist. You are probably an Old Earth Creationist. Anyone who believes God created the cosmos is a creationist by definition. Thanks for calling me an ass for no reason though.

My comments you deemed as irrelevant only seem that way because I was addressing your bizarre diatribe about how special Hews are. It's awkward talking to people when they spout off like that.

[Yonah ben Amittai]

You assume that neuroscientists are misreading their data?  Why is that?  Is it the published papers that make you think that or is it that it doesn't mesh with your worldview? 

I am suggesting they are misreading data because anyone in that field, a very new one, might be. It is of VERY recent introduction in science, and is getting its feet wet still. It still has a LONG way to go before it can claim to have even the accuracy of psychiatry, which itself is still very inexact.

It is not a very big assumption to call you a creationist. You are probably an Old Earth Creationist. Anyone who believes God created the cosmos is a creationist by definition. Thanks for calling me an ass for no reason though.

Actually, I do believe in micro-evolution, at least to a point. So, yes, you are an ass-hat for assuming (there is that word again) that I would not. I don't believe that we all evolved from primordial slime, but I do believe that within species, things do evolve. That doesn't mean I was once a monkey. But that does means that Homo sapiens sapiens are not the only ones to be in the family Homo. I'm no genius with the scientific aspects of things, and never claimed to be, but I am not a Creationist in the pajorative sense that you are using the word. And no, believing in a deity does not automatically make one a creationist.

My comments you deemed as irrelevant only seem that way because I was addressing your bizarre diatribe about how special Hews are. It's awkward talking to people when they spout off like that.

Again, I recommend reading the 8th Chapter of Zechariah.

[Rama Set]

Neuroscience is a different field than psychiatry so I would not compare the exactitude of the two sciences. I have heard the difference described as neuroscience examining a film projector and psychiatry examining the image.

I am not sure how you can deny macro evolution and believe micro evolution. Macro evolution is just micro occurring for so many generations that it build up to a large change. FYI, we did not evolve from monkeys. Look up Nearest Common Ancestor.

It's especially awkward when you justify your specialness by an ancient book written by barbarians.

[Yonah ben Amittai]

Neuroscience is a different field than psychiatry so I would not compare the exactitude of the two sciences. I have heard the difference described as neuroscience examining a film projector and psychiatry examining the image.

Exactly. But my point is still well made. Neither science is very far advanced at present time. Neuroscience and psychiatry both cannot (yet) comprehend where the mind ends and the brain begins. Until they can...

I am not sure how you can deny macro evolution and believe micro evolution. Macro evolution is just micro occurring for so many generations that it build up to a large change. FYI, we did not evolve from monkeys. Look up Nearest Common Ancestor.

I am well aware that we did not evolve from monkeys, thank you. I wasn't sure if you were. I am pleased to know that at least you have that much in the way of brains.

It's especially awkward when you justify your specialness by an ancient book written by barbarians.

That was simply a stupid thing to say. Given that the Bible has inspired men throughout the centuries to far greater things than you or I will ever accomplish in life, and given that your beloved UN uses it for quotations on the walls, methinks that you make an ass of yourself. I shan't deny that especially early in the text, there is some pretty barbaric stuff in there, but as I have said numerous times (I realise you have trouble reading, evidently),  by the time you reach toward the end of the text, God has become a universal God of all people, and the Jews have come to realise that  and speak of him in those terms. Anyone who can't see the glory of the Psalms, or the wisdom of the Proverbs, of the sobriety of Ecclesiastes, is simply a fool. Grow up.

[Rushy]

Neither science is very far advanced at present time. Neuroscience and psychiatry both cannot (yet) comprehend where the mind ends and the brain begins. Until they can..

The mind and the brain are the same thing (and are in fact synonyms). What exactly are you getting at?

I am well aware that we did not evolve from monkeys, thank you. I wasn't sure if you were. I am pleased to know that at least you have that much in the way of brains.

This is due to a misunderstanding of evolution. Through evolution we share a common ancestor with monkeys, we did not evolve from monkeys.

Also, you never answered my question:

I can cite hundreds of examples in the bible where god punishes people for not doing what he told them to do. If that isn't a taskmaster in your mind, then what is?

[Yonah ben Amittai]

Neither science is very far advanced at present time. Neuroscience and psychiatry both cannot (yet) comprehend where the mind ends and the brain begins. Until they can..

The mind and the brain are the same thing (and are in fact synonyms). What exactly are you getting at?

Actually, though they are used that way in English familiar speech, take a philosophy of mind course, and you will learn that the mind is the thing, the soul, if you will. The brain is the physical object that in some way houses the mind.

I am well aware that we did not evolve from monkeys, thank you. I wasn't sure if you were. I am pleased to know that at least you have that much in the way of brains.

This is due to a misunderstanding of evolution. Through evolution we share a common ancestor with monkeys, we did not evolve from monkeys.

Also, you never answered my question:

I can cite hundreds of examples in the bible where god punishes people for not doing what he told them to do. If that isn't a taskmaster in your mind, then what is?

And you at least have hit upon a point. God DOES indeed punish people for disobedience to the divine will in Scripture. I'm not so sure that makes him a taskmaster in the eternal sense, but it certainly does in the human sense of things. As to how to reconcile that with free will, well, that is a damn good question, and at present, I haven't got an answer for you. I'll have to consider that one a bit.

[Rushy]

Actually, though they are used that way in English familiar speech, take a philosophy of mind course, and you will learn that the mind is the thing, the soul, if you will. The brain is the physical object that in some way houses the mind.

You weren't talking about abstract philosophies, but about neuroscience and psychiatry. You referred to "where the brain ends and mind begins" and the answer is that they are the same thing. One doesn't begin in a separate place than the other.

[Yonah ben Amittai]

Actually, though they are used that way in English familiar speech, take a philosophy of mind course, and you will learn that the mind is the thing, the soul, if you will. The brain is the physical object that in some way houses the mind.

You weren't talking about abstract philosophies, but about neuroscience and psychology. You referred to "where the brain end and mind begins" and the answer is that they are the same thing. One doesn't begin in a separate place than the other.

I don't think you can separate the two. Philosophy and science DO interconnect. The brain and the mind are NOT the same thing. Descartes, the great mathematician and philosopher would have disagreed with you as well.

[Particle Person]

Descartes was a shmuck. There is no evidence to suggest that any neural process is a product of anything other than purely physical interactions.

[Rama Set]

Neuroscience is a different field than psychiatry so I would not compare the exactitude of the two sciences. I have heard the difference described as neuroscience examining a film projector and psychiatry examining the image.

Exactly. But my point is still well made. Neither science is very far advanced at present time. Neuroscience and psychiatry both cannot (yet) comprehend where the mind ends and the brain begins. Until they can...

You sound like you don't know much about the state of neuroscience. While it is a new science, they know that certain areas of the brain are activated when making a decision and that this can be seen to occur up to 6 seconds before a subject believes they have made a decision.

I am not sure how you can deny macro evolution and believe micro evolution. Macro evolution is just micro occurring for so many generations that it build up to a large change. FYI, we did not evolve from monkeys. Look up Nearest Common Ancestor.

I am well aware that we did not evolve from monkeys, thank you. I wasn't sure if you were. I am pleased to know that at least you have that much in the way of brains.

Are you trying to get your alt banned as well?  How can you deny macro evolution when it is nothing more than the cumulation of micro evolutionary changes? FYI, supporting the micro and denying the macro is a classic Creationist stance. You have more in common than you think!

It's especially awkward when you justify your specialness by an ancient book written by barbarians.

That was simply a stupid thing to say. Given that the Bible has inspired men throughout the centuries to far greater things than you or I will ever accomplish in life, and given that your beloved UN uses it for quotations on the walls, methinks that you make an ass of yourself. I shan't deny that especially early in the text, there is some pretty barbaric stuff in there, but as I have said numerous times (I realise you have trouble reading, evidently),  by the time you reach toward the end of the text, God has become a universal God of all people, and the Jews have come to realise that  and speak of him in those terms. Anyone who can't see the glory of the Psalms, or the wisdom of the Proverbs, of the sobriety of Ecclesiastes, is simply a fool. Grow up.

More insults. Good on you.

I never said the bible was not a source of inspiration or beautifully written in parts, but unless I am mistaken, the part where God tells you you are special is in Exodus which is before he gets all "kill the Amalekites!" which means that that part was written by Bronze Age barbarians.

PS If you can underline everything you can easily parse your quotes. It is pretty much the same process. When you want to close the quotes on the section you wish to respond to you write [/quote] and when you wish to continue quoting someone's text you write

. Please make it easier for people to respond to your diatribes.

[Rushy]

I don't think you can separate the two. Philosophy and science DO interconnect.

Not really. Philosophy is all about "why?" and science is all about "how?" The simply matter that they don't interconnect is the reason that (despite what some think) you can easily hold a religious preference and a career in science.

The brain and the mind are NOT the same thing. Descartes, the great mathematician and philosopher would have disagreed with you as well.

Descartes wouldn't be able to tell me what a neuron is. I doubt his opinion is relevant to the subject.

[Rama Set]

Neuroscience is a different field than psychiatry so I would not compare the exactitude of the two sciences. I have heard the difference described as neuroscience examining a film projector and psychiatry examining the image.

Exactly. But my point is still well made. Neither science is very far advanced at present time. Neuroscience and psychiatry both cannot (yet) comprehend where the mind ends and the brain begins. Until they can...

You sound like you don't know much about the state of neuroscience. While it is a new science, they know that certain areas of the brain are activated when making a decision and that this can be seen to occur up to 6 seconds before a subject believes they have made a decision.

I am not sure how you can deny macro evolution and believe micro evolution. Macro evolution is just micro occurring for so many generations that it build up to a large change. FYI, we did not evolve from monkeys. Look up Nearest Common Ancestor.

I am well aware that we did not evolve from monkeys, thank you. I wasn't sure if you were. I am pleased to know that at least you have that much in the way of brains.

Are you trying to get your alt banned as well?  How can you deny macro evolution when it is nothing more than the cumulation of micro evolutionary changes? FYI, supporting the micro and denying the macro is a classic Creationist stance. You have more in common than you think!

It's especially awkward when you justify your specialness by an ancient book written by barbarians.

That was simply a stupid thing to say. Given that the Bible has inspired men throughout the centuries to far greater things than you or I will ever accomplish in life, and given that your beloved UN uses it for quotations on the walls, methinks that you make an ass of yourself. I shan't deny that especially early in the text, there is some pretty barbaric stuff in there, but as I have said numerous times (I realise you have trouble reading, evidently),  by the time you reach toward the end of the text, God has become a universal God of all people, and the Jews have come to realise that  and speak of him in those terms. Anyone who can't see the glory of the Psalms, or the wisdom of the Proverbs, of the sobriety of Ecclesiastes, is simply a fool. Grow up.

More insults. Good on you.

I never said the bible was not a source of inspiration or beautifully written in parts, but unless I am mistaken, the part where God tells you you are special is in Exodus which is before he gets all "kill the Amalekites!" which means that that part was written by Bronze Age barbarians.

PS If you can underline everything you can easily parse your quotes. It is pretty much the same process. When you want to close the quotes on the section you wish to respond to you write [ /quote] and when you wish to continue quoting someone's text you write [ quote]. Please make it easier for people to respond to your diatribes.

[Rama Set]

I don't think you can separate the two. Philosophy and science DO interconnect.

Not really. Philosophy is all about "why?" and science is all about "how?" The simply matter that they don't interconnect is the reason that (despite what some think) you can easily hold a religious preference and a career in science.

The brain and the mind are NOT the same thing. Descartes, the great mathematician and philosopher would have disagreed with you as well.

Descartes wouldn't be able to tell me what a neuron is. I doubt his opinion is relevant to the subject.

This is evidenced by the fact that we can completely interrupt cognitive processes by damaging specific parts of the brain. There is no doubt that whatever consciousness is, it is a process of the brain.

[Ghost of V]

PS If you can underline everything you can easily parse your quotes. It is pretty much the same process. When you want to close the quotes on the section you wish to respond to you write and when you wish to continue quoting someone's text you write [ quote]. Please make it easier for people to respond to your diatribes.

I'm convinced that he's doing it on purpose at this point.