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Offline junker

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2015, 05:14:12 PM »
If he spent time with Luke, he should have developed better skills with the lightsaber.
They said throughout the movie that he trained with Luke. It definitely happened. Not sure how long he trained with him though.

Quote
The backstory that I have read on Kylo Ren takes care to specifically not imply that he is a Sith, and that Snoke even leverages how he walks the line between light and dark. That is outside of the context of the movie so far, but I presume that is how it will develop. Even Snoke is described as a "force-user" and not a Sith.
Well, Sith is an order but if there's not really an established order yet then I guess they could toe that line. But a Sith is just a Force user that harnesses anger and hatred and harms others. Snoke was worried about Kylo because he thought he still had the potential to go home with his parents, but that was decided once and for all when he killed Han.

Yes, of course he trained with Luke. So it doesn't follow that he isn't that good with a lightsaber, but it isn't something insurmountable I can't get over. I don't think him killing Han decided anything once and for all. That seems way too absolute. Anakin murdered all the younglings, killed Mace Windu, killed his former Jedi master Obi-Wan (as Darth Vader), and still went back to the Light Side in the end.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 05:15:44 PM by junker »

Offline Blanko

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2015, 05:21:14 PM »
Yoda didn't train Luke with a lightsaber.

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Offline junker

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2015, 05:22:49 PM »

Yoda didn't train Luke with a lightsaber.

Correct. Obi-Wan did.

Offline Blanko

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2015, 05:29:20 PM »
What I mean by that is that Yoda clearly thought that learning the ways of the Force was much more important than learning to fight with a lightsaber, and it only makes sense that Luke would carry over that mentality to his students. It makes even more sense when you consider that the sith were ostensibly gone at the time, so learning how to fight would have been even less important. Luke probably didn't have Kylo construct a lightsaber to begin with, considering how ghetto it is.

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Offline junker

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2015, 05:35:58 PM »

What I mean by that is that Yoda clearly thought that learning the ways of the Force was much more important than learning to fight with a lightsaber, and it only makes sense that Luke would carry over that mentality to his students. It makes even more sense when you consider that the sith were ostensibly gone at the time, so learning how to fight would have been even less important. Luke probably didn't have Kylo construct a lightsaber to begin with, considering how ghetto it is.

That's a great line of reasoning that I can get on board with. It does seem like a bit of a reach in the context of the new film alone. I would assume had Yoda been operating a Jedi academy as Luke was said to have been when Kylo Ren was sent with him, then some type of weapons training would have occurred in both scenarios.

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Offline rooster

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2015, 06:16:35 PM »
I don't think him killing Han decided anything once and for all. That seems way too absolute. Anakin murdered all the younglings, killed Mace Windu, killed his former Jedi master Obi-Wan (as Darth Vader), and still went back to the Light Side in the end.
He clearly made his choice though.

And one good deed hardly means Vader went back to the light side. I never understood that, he was responsible for so much death and destruction but when he saves his kid he's redeemed? No.

Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2015, 04:18:12 AM »
You guys realise that training in the movie-verse basically means understanding the force better, right? Not actual lightsaber training. Luke never used his saber once on Dagobah. Only in the shitty prequels did they go full retard with the blast shield helmets and floating devices for saber training, and even that emphasizes use of the force.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kylo has zero training in lightsaber use. Regardless, it doesn't matter. He smashed Finn and nearly beat Rey while sustaining multiple injuries.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 04:20:07 AM by Vindictus »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2015, 07:16:11 AM »
You guys realise that training in the movie-verse basically means understanding the force better, right? Not actual lightsaber training. Luke never used his saber once on Dagobah. Only in the shitty prequels did they go full retard with the blast shield helmets and floating devices for saber training, and even that emphasizes use of the force.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kylo has zero training in lightsaber use. Regardless, it doesn't matter. He smashed Finn and nearly beat Rey while sustaining multiple injuries.
There is literally no point in having a weapon if you aren't trained to use it.
While we didn't SEE any saber training, swinging wildly is not going to solve anything.  Especially since the weapon is exotic enough that you could very easily hurt yourself using it.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2015, 09:42:23 AM »
You guys realise that training in the movie-verse basically means understanding the force better, right? Not actual lightsaber training. Luke never used his saber once on Dagobah. Only in the shitty prequels did they go full retard with the blast shield helmets and floating devices for saber training, and even that emphasizes use of the force.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kylo has zero training in lightsaber use. Regardless, it doesn't matter. He smashed Finn and nearly beat Rey while sustaining multiple injuries.
There is literally no point in having a weapon if you aren't trained to use it.
While we didn't SEE any saber training, swinging wildly is not going to solve anything.  Especially since the weapon is exotic enough that you could very easily hurt yourself using it.

They don't swing wildly. The whole point of lightsabers being specific to force users is that they can forsee blaster fire and the swings of opponents. Do you really need hand to hand combat training when you're operating with precognition? This also doesn't address my point that throughout the whole original trilogy Luke is never once taught to use his lightsaber against an opponent, even being told to not use it.

I'm fully aware of the bullshit stances that are elaborated on in the EU, but they've never been conveyed or mentioned in any of the movies. Lightsaber battles are about the characters and their use of the force, not who is the best fencer.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2015, 09:53:40 AM »
You guys realise that training in the movie-verse basically means understanding the force better, right? Not actual lightsaber training. Luke never used his saber once on Dagobah. Only in the shitty prequels did they go full retard with the blast shield helmets and floating devices for saber training, and even that emphasizes use of the force.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kylo has zero training in lightsaber use. Regardless, it doesn't matter. He smashed Finn and nearly beat Rey while sustaining multiple injuries.
There is literally no point in having a weapon if you aren't trained to use it.
While we didn't SEE any saber training, swinging wildly is not going to solve anything.  Especially since the weapon is exotic enough that you could very easily hurt yourself using it.

They don't swing wildly. The whole point of lightsabers being specific to force users is that they can forsee blaster fire and the swings of opponents. Do you really need hand to hand combat training when you're operating with precognition? This also doesn't address my point that throughout the whole original trilogy Luke is never once taught to use his lightsaber against an opponent, even being told to not use it.

I'm fully aware of the bullshit stances that are elaborated on in the EU, but they've never been conveyed or mentioned in any of the movies. Lightsaber battles are about the characters and their use of the force, not who is the best fencer.
No, its specific to force users because its a difficult weapon to use.  The blade is weightless.


We never saw luke get trained in much.  Should we assume he was only trained onscreen?


Also, Obi-wan mentions to Anakin how he needs to work on his sabering.




"If you spent as much time practicing your saber techniques as you did your wit, you'd rival Master Yoda as a swordsman."
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2015, 11:06:04 AM »
We never saw luke get trained in much.  Should we assume he was only trained onscreen?

Well, yeah. There were only two Jedi in the original trilogy and both were dead by 6. Neither taught Luke to fight with a saber.

Also, Obi-wan mentions to Anakin how he needs to work on his sabering.

"If you spent as much time practicing your saber techniques as you did your wit, you'd rival Master Yoda as a swordsman."

Ah yes, one of the many stupid fucking lines in the prequels. Lucas seems to have forgotten what they wrote for Yoda in the original trilogy.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2015, 11:45:13 AM »
We never saw luke get trained in much.  Should we assume he was only trained onscreen?

Well, yeah. There were only two Jedi in the original trilogy and both were dead by 6. Neither taught Luke to fight with a saber.
They didn't train Luke to do a flip either or pull shit with the force.  There's a lot of "off screen" training that went on.  Presumably, Yoda or ghost ben taught him how to use a light saber properly.  If not, he had no chance against Vader.  Ever.


Quote
Also, Obi-wan mentions to Anakin how he needs to work on his sabering.

"If you spent as much time practicing your saber techniques as you did your wit, you'd rival Master Yoda as a swordsman."

Ah yes, one of the many stupid fucking lines in the prequels. Lucas seems to have forgotten what they wrote for Yoda in the original trilogy.
No where does he state the force is the only training he gives.  Hell, he built a lightsaber.  Surely Yoda taught him how.
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Offline rooster

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2015, 01:20:14 PM »
Why are we comparing Kylo Ren to Luke?

Luke in the original trilogy is more powerful than Kylo Ren is in this movie.
And there are different techniques within the Force and across Force users. Just because Luke was good with a saber doesn't mean all Force users are going to be great.

Also, Lord Dave, Rey had zero training with a saber yet was pretty proficient. That backs up what Vindictus is saying about using the Force over being a trained fencer.

Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2015, 05:26:36 PM »
I watched TFA last night and thought it was a really, really fun movie.  I enjoyed it immensely from start to finish.  17/38 would see again.

My only (very minor) complaint was that I wish they wouldn't have unmasked Ren in the first film.  As soon as the mask came off, he ceased to be as menacing to me because he was slightly more humanized.  I totally get that the writers probably didn't want to write the part as Vader: Redux, but I just wasn't yet ready to view Ren as a troubled-and-possibly-still-fundamentally-good human being who deserves any measure of sympathy.  But, that's a pretty minor thing, and it didn't detract from the movie overall. 

I'm also on the side of the "lightsaber fighting is about the force, not fencing" side of that debate.  I think it kinda has to be that way or none of the movies make much sense.  The best example to me is that there isn't any other way to explain Luke overcoming Vader (or even not just being immediately killed by him in any of their fights).  If we're taking swordfighting as the analogy, then it just isn't believable to me at all that anyone who had only trained in swordfighting for a few years as an adult could ever come close to matching the prowess of someone who had been training for his/her entire life, from childhood.  I don't recall from the first movies when Anakin started training with lightsabers, but by the time of TESB, Vader had been using lightsabers to fight people for literally decades.  It just isn't believable to me that Luke defeats Vader by virtue of training and proficiency with a lightsaber, and I think this is explained by the notion that "the Force is strong" within him.  Luke can hang with Vader and eventually overcome him because of the Force, not awesome lightsaber training from Yoda.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2015, 07:06:42 PM »
Also, Lord Dave, Rey had zero training with a saber yet was pretty proficient. That backs up what Vindictus is saying about using the Force over being a trained fencer.
She also had zero force training yet mind controlled a storm trooper within minutes of even learning she could. 

To me this is just a plothole.  Or she's a force prodigy and needs no training.  Which to me is stupid.

As for Luke fighting Vader:  The first time, Vader wasn't trying to kill him.  The second time, it's iffy.


But let's say the Jedi don't do saber training.  Let's say it's uncoordinated movements that you do while sensing.  Completely untrained.  So you know that your opponent is going to swing from above.  What do you do?  Block would be your instinct, but do you know how to effectively block or even counter attack?  The force can tell you what's coming but it can't tell you how to react to it.

This would be the difference of a fist fight between a black belt and a normal, untrained guy with the force.  Can he see that kick coming?  Sure.  And his instinct will be to do something.  But the black belt will have a much better chance of anticipating his actions and having a counter attack ready.  You can predict his attacks, but how do you defend yourself against them in such a way as to avoid what he anticipates?

Sorry but there is no possible way the Jedi are going to give anyone a weapon and not train them how to use it.  It's stupid and a waste.  And if they did, the Sith would capitalize on that and say "You know, if we TRAIN this guy to fight with a light saber, he'll kick the butt of any Jedi."


Side note:  Vader is in a giant suit and is slow because of it.  Hence why his style is a very forceful one rather than agile. 

Also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Anderson_%28fencer%29
The guy who did the sword fighting as Vader WAS a professional fencer AND he did the choreography.  So... yeah.
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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2015, 07:36:57 PM »
Can we just say that the movie was rushed and leave it at that?

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Offline rooster

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2015, 08:49:34 PM »
Also, Lord Dave, Rey had zero training with a saber yet was pretty proficient. That backs up what Vindictus is saying about using the Force over being a trained fencer.
She also had zero force training yet mind controlled a storm trooper within minutes of even learning she could. 

To me this is just a plothole.  Or she's a force prodigy and needs no training.  Which to me is stupid.
Well when we see Yoda training Luke, it's really just getting him to believe in himself and focus. If you have strong will, you don't really need someone to coach you on that. She will still need training to learn what she can do, her limits, what's dangerous, etc.

It doesn't seem like a stretch to me that someone with a lot of innate sensitivity can get results if they simply focus and will something to happen. It's like learning how to play a sport, not like learning how to operate machinery.

Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2015, 09:44:48 PM »
She also had zero force training yet mind controlled a storm trooper within minutes of even learning she could. 

To me this is just a plothole.  Or she's a force prodigy and needs no training.  Which to me is stupid.

That's not what a plot hole is Dave. That's like saying obi wan talking to Luke in 4 was a plot hole. A legit plot hole is how did po get back to the rebels?


But let's say the Jedi don't do saber training.  Let's say it's uncoordinated movements that you do while sensing.  Completely untrained.  So you know that your opponent is going to swing from above.  What do you do?  Block would be your instinct, but do you know how to effectively block or even counter attack?  The force can tell you what's coming but it can't tell you how to react to it.

This would be the difference of a fist fight between a black belt and a normal, untrained guy with the force.  Can he see that kick coming?  Sure.  And his instinct will be to do something.  But the black belt will have a much better chance of anticipating his actions and having a counter attack ready.  You can predict his attacks, but how do you defend yourself against them in such a way as to avoid what he anticipates?

Sorry but there is no possible way the Jedi are going to give anyone a weapon and not train them how to use it.  It's stupid and a waste.  And if they did, the Sith would capitalize on that and say "You know, if we TRAIN this guy to fight with a light saber, he'll kick the butt of any Jedi."

But they did. Obi wan and Yoda spend no time training Luke how to fence. Instead they teach him about the force and Luke figures the rest out.

Also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Anderson_%28fencer%29
The guy who did the sword fighting as Vader WAS a professional fencer AND he did the choreography.  So... yeah.

Yes, but the fight in 5 still wasn't about the fencing. That was done to make it look less retarded than the fight in 4.

Can we just say that the movie was rushed and leave it at that?

It wasn't. Abrams has stated on multiple occasions that the movie has been done for months and that the production was a very relaxed affair. Nothing about the film seems rushed either.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 09:47:19 PM by Vindictus »

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2015, 10:42:03 PM »
I've just seen it, and it was great.  It wasn't even as much as a ripoff of A New Hope as I had feared - really, the only nostalgic element that I felt detracted from the movie was the Death Star retread.  It's not introduced until over the halfway mark, and when it is, it's essentially superfluous to the more personal story involving Rey and Finn.  I thought that Snoke was pretty silly, and Captain Phasma was remarkably underused for a character as heavily hyped as hers, but I can't think of anything else that bothered me.

Now, on the very important subject of the lightsaber battles, I really liked how this movie handled them.  If there's one element of the prequels that doesn't get the criticism it deserves, it's the action scenes that involve lightsabers.  Here, we got to see the actors give performances, rather than anonymous stunt doubles perform highly-stylized choreography.  And building on what Vindictus said, as well as cribbing from Plinkett, it was the prequels that essentially reduced Jedi to being little more than ridiculous lightsaber ninjas and their worth as a Jedi to being little more than their skill as a ridiculous lightsaber ninja.  The fact that Rey managed to beat Ren (why do those two names have to be so similar?) doesn't automatically make her some kind of super Force wizard or Jedi master, or even Ren's superior in swordsmanship.  Despite his injuries and the fact that he was trying to take Rey alive, Ren dominated the fight up until the key moment where Rey managed to truly use the Force.  It's a pretty common trope in action movies for the hero to suddenly turn the tables on the villain in the climax when they get their second wind.

Finally, I remember that the marketing seemed to imply that Finn was going to be the main protagonist of this, or at least the character who fit into the "chosen one" role, what with posters showing him with a lightsaber and everything.  It led to reactions like this:

An epic story where Jedis are downtrodden and forgotten, then one newbie rises up to defeat the Evil Empire (This time he's black, folks!) In theaters December 16!

Not that Finn wasn't great, but I liked that it ended up being Rey who's presumably going on to become a Jedi and discover her destiny and all that.  She felt like a much better fit.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 12:04:47 AM by Saddam Hussein »

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Offline junker

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2015, 11:02:55 PM »
The fact that Rey managed to beat Ren (why do those two names have to be so similar?)

Ren is just an assumed surname since he is a member of the Kinghts of Ren. They call him Kylo in the hood.

I can get with the idea of the lightsaber skills being a less-important part of a force-user, especially after reading the conversation that took place here. At least as long as it stays consistent in the sequels going forward. I do wish there was more build-up or back story between Han and Kylo. It came off as very predictable and unemotional when Han was killed.

I am going to go watch it again at some point now that I have had time to digest it and get other perspectives.