1

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Circumnavigation World Record Sailing Discrepancies

« on: October 07, 2024, 09:18:34 PM »

When we look closer at the details we just see anomalies and that things are not really in accordance with what is generally claimed at face value.

Indeed: the OP (and your next post) rewards closer study.
 

In this sort or race for the "around the world sailing record", the goal wasn't necessarily to make a perfect circumference around the globe for obvious reasons, and is really the fastest time someone could sail a distance of 21,600 nautical miles. Francis Joyon and François Gabart made this path:

https://goldengloberace.com/the-route/



This path takes place further northwards near the continents. The total course is 30,000 miles, but they only count the best time to 21,600 nautical miles for the specific record, since this is the circumference of the RE in RE Theory.

Incorrect.
When Joyon and Gabart and his crew (edit: Gabart took the solo record on a different multihull) lifted the record for sailing around the world, they also won the Jules Verne Trophy and it is a condition of that trophy that record setters begin by crossing a line between Créac’h lighthouse on Ushant Island, off the French north west coast and the Lizard lighthouse off the English south coast. Their time is to sail around the world leaving the Capes of Good Hope, Leeuwin and Horn to port (on the left) and re-cross that same line in the western English Channel, not to complete 21,600 miles. There are no restrictions on the type of yacht used, as long as it is capable of sailing around the world unaided.

That map shows the track of the Golden Globe 2022 race, a race using traditional yachts in the style of Sir Francis Chichester's famous Gipsy Moth IV, which generally takes 9 months to complete and high-tech aids like GPS are forbidden, it's sextants and chronometers for navigation. It starts and finishes at Les Sables-d'Olonne on the French west coast. about 180 miles from Ushant, and there are also mandatory calling points where each yacht stops in close sight of land for 90 minutes.

It looks like you guys are claiming that she had a bad boat. According to Guinness World Records Lisa Blair holds the record for "Fastest circumnavigation of Antarctica by sailboat". She did it in 92 days 18 hours 21 minutes 22 seconds. We know that hundreds of people are trying to beat world records, and there are even yearly races around Antarctica (which we are often pointed to, but the details are rarely discussed). This represents the best boat, so your arguments are pretty invalid.

Joyon's and Gabart's IDEC SPORT (formerly IDEC 3) is 31.5m long, Lisa Blair's Climate Action Now is half that length. IDEC SPORT carries far more sail than Climate Action Now and uses foils which lift the trimaran partly out of the water to reduce drag and increase speed to peaks of over 40 knots; Lisa Blair's boat has none of these. You might think Blair's is a bad boat, others would say it's a completely different boat and so your argument about round-Antarctica times falls.

The race around Antarctica happened in 2008, but does not appear to have happened since. If you know of hard data about more recent Antarctic Cup yacht races, I'd really like to know, I enjoy keeping up with these kind of events.

Finally, for anyone who is interested in sailing closer to the Antarctic ice and the weather and winds encountered, here's an account of Katharsis II skippered by Mariusz Koper, which holds the record for a yacht sailing around Antarctica below 62 deg S latitude. The anomalous winds feature prominently.

https://www.yachtingworld.com/voyages/sailing-antarctica-record-breaking-voyage-around-southern-continent-123341

2

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Circumnavigation World Record Sailing Discrepancies

« on: October 06, 2024, 07:07:37 PM »

I looked at your map. The only winds not traveling in the same easterly direction are those eddys forming close to land she wasn't sailing in those areas.

It is bizarre to provide your source as some kind of counter.

A source for her route? 

You realise of course that this is a live map, not instantaneous indications of the wind at the time she was in each area.  At the latitudes between 45S and Antarctica the general trend is westerly (ie blowing towards the east), but there are significant times when the wind varies considerably, from all points of the compass.  Do you think that those times and "eddies" don't count?  To claim that "winds on the inside of the ice ring always travel the same way" is complete fantasy. 

But don't take my word; this from her blog Day 79:

"Hi All,
 
 Last night I finally managed to get to bed by around 3am and by 4am the winds had started to veer from the SW to the W before shifting to the NW and build in strength.  I needed to put a gybe in, but I decided to wait until first light to make it a little easier". 

You'll know of course that a gybe is a similar manouver to a tack, but performed before the wind, so more hazardous.

She ventured a little off course in that instance, I suspect, but as I stated earlier, she was traveling with the wind.

Like I wrote, it is indeed bizarre you would provide a map that does not show an Ice Ring and only shows those eddys that are blowing to the W. She was probably caught up in one  of those.

For information, Lisa Blair's course around Antarctica, as shown on her own site https://lisablairsailstheworld.com/antarctica-2   Both her first attempt in 2017 and the record in 2022 are shown. The 2017 course is particularly interesting for one that doesn't keep to a fairly uniform easterly track.

This also handily shows why round-the-world record attempts have a limit in the latitude south permitted since the globe distance around Antarctica is notably shorter at 60 deg S compared to 45 deg S.

3

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Circumnavigation World Record Sailing Discrepancies

« on: October 02, 2024, 07:40:34 PM »

You're comparing racing cycles with motorbikes: Lisa Blair's monohull ex-racing yacht, although no slouch, is nowhere near as fast as IDEC SPORT, formerly IDEC 3, a multihull built especially to break transoceanic sailing records. IDEC averaged almost 30 knots crossing the Atlantic in 2007, at least three times the speed of a racing monohull like Climate Action Now.

4

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Finding Polaris and FE model

« on: August 21, 2024, 08:21:38 PM »

It's not the "FE Equator", it's how 0 degrees latitude is defined. The hint is that 90 degrees latitude is the North Geographic Pole, and 0 degreed latitude is the Equator, which is also the angle in the sky where the North Star would be to the observer.

I presumed you were talking about an FE definition of the equator, since the globe equator is the imaginary line of all points equidistant from the north and south poles – hence the name, equator. It still leaves the problem of Polaris being not quite at the celestial north pole. For naked eye observations this doesn't matter much, but for accurate navigation it really matters. A yachtsman heading for San Francisco and using an uncorrected sighting of Polaris to measure his latitude runs the risk of possibly coming ashore at Point Lobos, or maybe Timber Cove – both are within the possible error range and would be both embarrassing and expensive.

5

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Finding Polaris and FE model

« on: August 18, 2024, 01:37:18 PM »

Why would you? The location of the equator is defined as where Polaris intersects the horizon as it descends when you recede from North to South.

Fascinating! So the FE equator is actually moving through the course of the day, since Polaris isn't in a fixed position in the night sky as we see it. Polaris has a declination of 89 degrees 15 minutes and 51 seconds of arc, so it actually orbits the celestial north pole in a circle of 44 minutes and 9 seconds of arc radius. This means someone near the FE equator will be closer or further away from the FE equator at different times of day by as much as 88 minutes and 18 seconds of FE latitude – just over 88 nautical miles. Navigators must account for this daily cycle in Polaris's position in the sky to avoid driving the thing on to the rocks when making for a presumed harbour.

I now understand why celestial navigation is especially tricky on a flat earth. Thanks so much for the information.

6

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I am wondering why I do not see...

« on: April 17, 2024, 05:58:16 PM »

..Reposts a video already posted in the same thread ...

Why so I have, how embarrassing.    Very careless of me, I apologise.

7

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I am wondering why I do not see...

« on: April 15, 2024, 08:11:13 PM »

Quite by chance I came across this short explanation of the path of an eclipse on a round earth:



You might find it answers some of the above questions.

8

Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Ether vs. Rocketship Earth

« on: May 19, 2023, 08:17:56 PM »

This is simply incorrect - much like the slinky video people, you are publicly demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of basic physics. There is nothing in Newtonian understandings of gravity or F=MA etc that is at odds with what we observe in freefall, for example.

The above quotes provided by the astrophysicist at space.com and by pitt.edu show the problem with the effect that causes weightlessness - the separation of inertial and gravitational mass and their equivalence. Newtonian Gravity was rejected as incoherent because of this.

After describing the issues with Newtonian Gravity the space.com article goes on to describe Einstein's "Happiest Thought" that a man would not experience his weight in freefall as a sticking point. Einstein also repeated this thought as his basis for his theories and principle on numerous occasions. If this were cleanly explained in Newtonian Gravity and was of no relevance, why would space.com segway to this curiosity of Einstein? Obviously this does matter and the issue here is a matter of understanding and reading comprehension on your part.

You have cited nothing. On this forum you continuously post and cite only yourself as your source.

You also describe Newtonian gravity as being 'discredited'. That is very unfair on poor old Isaac. His theory has been built on, but it remains an entirely valid model for most of what goes on in our lives - bridges, aircraft, boats, rockets etc are all built using Newtonian physics and ideas of gravity - it works.

Actually those things use Newtonian gravity + the absurd mechanisms like the separation of inertial and gravitational masses that require it to work. It was on basis of this ad-hoc mechanism that the theory was discredited. The theory does not work without those mechanisms and would otherwise make blatantly wrong predictions, as explained by the above space.com article.

A theory that works is a different matter than it being discredited as an incoherent theory. You have a low comprehension of this and are using circular reasoning to justify something that has been discredited.

Tom I would like to thank you for the pitt.edu article, it's most interesting as an introduction to the development of Einstein's thinking. However, I must ask if you've read it through yourself? You claim Newtonian gravitational theory has been "discredited as incoherent", but that same article clearly says "...Newton's theory works extraordinarily well for the weak, static gravitational fields of our solar system. I'm still not sure what your difficulty with the equivalence principle is: that inertial and gravitational mass are equivalent is a great mystery?? There are still mysteries that scientific enquiry hasn't solved...

9

Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Ether vs. Rocketship Earth

« on: May 04, 2023, 08:33:48 PM »

What's the point of this? Did the video get cut short before explaining something – if so, please repost it? Apart from the Glaswegian "eloquence" at the beginning, what I saw was mostly pretty coloured graphics with a musical background.

That's interesting that it went over your head. May I ask what your beliefs are regarding Earth and gravity?

No, wait, I missed the brief advert for the book; presumably the video is meant to be that length. I still don't understand the point of this in an FE Theory forum: if you mean us to read Mr Wheeler's book and then discuss it with you, why not say so? Always assuming it's relevant to FE Theory, that is.

10

Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Ether vs. Rocketship Earth

« on: May 04, 2023, 06:51:05 PM »

What's the point of this? Did the video get cut short before explaining something – if so, please repost it? Apart from the Glaswegian "eloquence" at the beginning, what I saw was mostly pretty coloured graphics with a musical background.

11

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Altitude related g... where are the experiments?

« on: April 29, 2023, 09:11:37 PM »

Gravity:

The guy in the video is Theoria Apophasis, also known as The Angry Photographer, also known as Ken Wheeler. His YouTube channel is https://www.youtube.com/@kathodosdotcom.

I make no comment on his channel, videos or knowledge – this is only for information. You can make your own assessment of his opinions.

12

Flat Earth Community / Re: Globebusters' Bob Knodel Passed Away

« on: April 09, 2023, 01:56:48 PM »

I'm sorry to hear of Bob's sudden passing. My condolences to his family and all who knew him. A sad day.

13

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Curvature of the Horizon

« on: April 02, 2023, 04:11:23 PM »

What you say is almost true and in the spirit of what I am saying. But there are no straight lines on a globe. They are all curves. So i walk 1.57 miles from the north pole heading due south to the north pole. The line I have walked is a curve although it will look straight if looking from above and it will feel straight to me. It is a curve. And when i have travelled that 1.57 miles curve my rate of drop in height will be 1 mile (for each 1.57 miles).

Perhaps we ought to consider where you got the "magic number" of 1.57.




It's not magic at all, it's just half of pi. Having revisited junior high school mathematics and determined the distance from pole to equator is the globe's radius times half of pi (correct), you have mistakenly thought this ratio is a constant amount for the distance travelled compared to vertical drop from pole to equator. If the sphere has a radius of 250m, the distance from top to "equator" position is ½ x pi x 250 = 392.5m (and the vertical drop 250m.) If it has a radius of 1700 miles, the distance from top to "equator" position is ½ x pi x 1700 = 2669 miles (and the vertical drop 1700 miles.)

But the only sphere where travelling a distance of 1.57 miles on its surface from the top results in a drop of 1 mile is on a sphere of radius 1 mile. And the earth is a great deal larger than that.

(edited for clarity)

14

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Curvature of the Horizon

« on: April 01, 2023, 09:27:03 PM »

I have revised the image to hopefully better explain this.

Instead of walking from N to E1 imagine walking from N to X. This is half the distance to the equator and represents one eighth (1/8) of the earths circumference ie 3,113 miles.  Can we agree on this?
If so the drop/fall/decrease in height in relation to the north pole (call it whatever) will be equal to 1,982 miles ie one half (1/2) the radius of the earth. Can we agree on this?
If either of the above figures are incorrect please tell me how?

Accepting the above if we divide 3,113 miles by 1,982 miles we get a drop/fall/decrease in height in relation to the north pole of 1 mile per 1.57 miles travelled.

Like it or not and forget what I have called these dimensions does anyone disagree with these maths?

Hopefully not. And regardless of what others have said every single infinite point on a circle is at the 'top of the curve'. Above that point the circle curves away as does it below that point wherever that point is on the circle. And as a circle is one continuous curve there are no parts of the curve that are any different to other part. Take any two segments of the curve and they will be identical no matter where on the circle they came from.

Now instead of me walking 3,113 miles I am going to divide the circle into 360 (purely for conventional purposes - I could have chosen any figure to divide it by; 100, 125, 299 - it wouldn't make any difference). The circumference of the earth divided by 360 = 69 miles. I am now going to walk that 69 miles from the north pole. And when I have finished I will be at a point on the circle some 43 miles below the north pole. Forget linear dimensions they don't matter. The fact is I will have dropped by roughly 43 miles. Or to make it simpler 1 mile for every 1.57 miles travelled around the circumference. And if someone stood at the north pole and watched me walk 1.57 miles away from them I should be at a point 1 mile below them. These figures are irrefutable. Its down to the wording. If anyone disagrees can you please do so in layman's terms? Many thanks

Well, yes we do disagree with your maths and find the figures entirely refutable. In layman's terms, I'll try drawing out what you are actually describing. Starting at the north pole, you travel 1.57 miles and find yourself 1 mile lower than the pole:–



Another 1.57 miles and you're another 1 mile lower than the pole:–



On and on, for each 1.57 miles you travel, you're another mile lower than the pole:–



Does the path travelled bear any resemblance to the curve of a globe? No, it doesn't, it's a straight line: you are travelling down a constant slope.

If you disagree, explain in layman's terms.

15

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Why are all FE models discs?

« on: January 03, 2023, 08:30:28 PM »

Latitude and Longitude are references ultimately based on astronomical phenomena. The Latitude is based on the angle of the North Star in the sky (for the NH) and Longitude is related to clocks and time zones. You might know your Lat/Lon coordinate point, but this would do nothing to show the distance between those points. This is how GPS, and formally the land-based LORAN, operate. The station knows its own coordinates and it is giving you your own coordinates based on triangulation.

AATW has already dealt with GPS and trilateration, but you're also incorrect that LORAN used triangulation. It used multilateration to fix a position, as did its shorter-range cousin the Decca Navigator system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loran-C

16

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Why are all FE models discs?

« on: January 02, 2023, 05:01:02 PM »

For long distance measurements in the 17th century and prior the first step was to get your longitude and latitude. From that you could know how far away another place with a known latitude and longitude was if you knew how many miles a degree took upon the earth. It was "known" how many miles a degree took upon the earth based on a study, to which they would take and apply to Lat/Lon coordinates on a theoretical basis. They were not stringing ruler tape or chains for all long distance work. Long distance 'measurement' worked, and still works, based on a series of assumptions.

How very interesting, how was this number of miles per degree "known"?

To answer that, here's a link to a 17th century work on the same subject. The author sought to verify the "known" number of miles per degree by actually measuring, by surveyor's chain, the distance from London to York and comparing the difference in latitude and longitude with this directly measured distance. In the course of the book, he also mentions how others through history had physically measured distances to determine, say, latitude difference compared to distance in cubits or stadia etc.

The Seaman's Practice by Richard Norwood:– https://ia803203.us.archive.org/16/items/norwood-1699-the-sea-man-s-practice/Norwood%201699%20The_Sea_man_s_Practice.pdf

You'll find he uses 17th century English spelling – it'ʃ difficult to ʃay at timeʃ how theʃe thingʃ might be pronounced without aʃsiʃtance... 

17

Flat Earth Community / Re: Assessing "Kings Dethroned" by Gerrard Hickson

« on: June 22, 2022, 05:59:05 PM »

Finite is adjacent to infinite.

Wow.    You need to consult a dictionary.

18

Flat Earth Community / Re: Assessing "Kings Dethroned" by Gerrard Hickson

« on: June 21, 2022, 08:50:00 PM »

Chapters 1 & 2

After describing triangulation, as used by surveyors and on which the author is particularly keen, he introduces the astronomers Hipparchus of Nicaea, Claudius Ptolemy of Alexandria, Nicolas Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Johannes Kepler and Galileo Galilei. As astronomers, their opinions and theories formed the standard views of astronomy in their times and Copernicus and Kepler especially laid the foundations of modern astronomy, but the author believes they all made a fundamental mistake: beginning at Hipparchus they all held that “the heavenly bodies (the stars) are infinitely distant.” (page 3)

The author never says where this saying is recorded; he only insists it was Hipparchus’s conviction and that the others accepted it at face value. We can’t check Hipparchus’s own writings, they’re lost; we mostly know them from Ptolemy. So, if Ptolemy, author of the standard text on geocentric astronomy used for 1400 years (the famous Almagest), built his theory of the universe while accepting this, you’d expect to find it in his writings, but you’d be disappointed – the Almagest doesn’t mention it. In fact, Ptolemy claims the stars are just beyond the orbit of Saturn, 20,000 earth radii from Earth (from Ptolemy’s Planetary Hypotheses, Hamm, 2011, p202).

I find it amusing that you fail to point to a direct reference to Ptolemy when laying claim as to what he believed, instead relying on the hearsay of others "to speak the truth," "you can trust us, this is what Ptolemy believed."

Nah, doesn't fly.

Yet when Hickson claims a direct quote of Hipparchus (i.e., "the heavenly bodies are infinitely distant," you offer nothing more than a statement a direct quote of Hipparchus or his work would be impossible, because we cannot check Hipparchus' writings.

You know you do not have access to them.

That's all.

Spare us the rest of the writing as it is rendered totally useless by this demonstration of your bias.

This demonstration indicates an inability to assess the printed material on a toothpaste tube, let alone a written work by a scientist.

I do beg your pardon, how remiss of me.

Therefore, the greatest distance of Saturn, which is adjacent to the sphere of the fixed stars, is 19,865 earth radii, and its least distance is 14,187 earth radii.
…
If all the diameters subtended the same apparent angle at their mean distances, the ratio of one diameter to another would equal the ratio of their distances, because the ratio of the circumferences of circles, as well as of similar arcs, one to another, is equal to the ratio of their radii. In the measure in which the diameter of the Sun is 1,210, the diameter of the Moon is 48; the diameter of Mercury 115 the diameter of Venus 622½; the diameter of Mars 5,040; the diameter of Jupiter 11,504; and the diameter of Saturn 17,026. The diameter of the first magnitude stars in this measure, assuming that their (sphere) is adjacent to the furthest distance of Saturn, is 19,865, or about 20,000; and the amount is surely not less than 20,000. But the diameters do not subtend equal angles, for the diameter of the Moon subtends an angle 1 1/3 times that of the Sun, and the diameters of the planets subtend angles smaller than the Sun in the ratios mentioned. It is clear that in the measure where the diameter of the Sun is 1,210, the diameter of the Moon is 64 because it is 1⅓ times 48; the diameter of Mercury is 8 because it is about 1/15 of 115; the diameter of Venus is 62 which is about of 622½; the diameter of Mars is 252 which is 1/20 of 5,040; the diameter of Jupiter is 959 which is about 1/12 of 11,504; the diameter of Saturn is 946 which is about 1/18 of 17,026; the diameters of the first magnitude stars is 1,000 which is 1/20 of 20,000, and they are certainly not smaller.

Planetary Hypotheses Book 1, part 2 by Claudius Ptolemy

https://pdfcoffee.com/download/goldstein-the-arabic-version-of-ptolemyx27s-planetary-hypotheses-2-pdf-free.html

Now perhaps you know of where Hickson gets his quotation, with a direct citation or reference? In turn, I find it slightly amusing Kings Dethroned is accepted as the trustworthy work of a scientist.

19

Flat Earth Community / Re: Assessing "Kings Dethroned" by Gerrard Hickson

« on: June 21, 2022, 08:40:00 PM »

Yes, sources were also provided showing that Hipparchus believed in an infinitely distant sun. If he treated the sun as infinitely distant it is difficult to argue that he never treated he stars as infinitely distant.

Your argument is that you do not personally believe that Hipparchus believed in infinitely distant stars, and do not actually have a source on that except for your own opinion, which is a poor argument to say the least.

You provided a selective quotation from one website. I'll offer in return a link to a paper examining accounts of Hipparchus's On Sizes and Distances (as reconstructed from the extant quotations in Ptolemy, Pappus etc) which considers the substance of Book 1 (which assumes an imperceptible parallax for the Sun) and the contents of Book 2 (which considers a minimum distance to the Sun). You'll doubtless be pleased this is from New York University instead of NASA.

https://archive.nyu.edu/bitstream/2451/61288/56/11.%20Carman.pdf

Nowhere in this comprehensive examination of the subject of both books (determining the size of the Moon) does it indicate Hipparchus believed the Sun or any other stars to be infinitely distant.

You also offered a quotation from some random guy on Quora. Random guy doesn't substantiate his opinion with a reference or a citation and may have been quoting Gerrard Hickson's book for all we know.

Kings Dethroned doesn't substantiate its claim either. That's the point.

20

Flat Earth Community / Re: Assessing "Kings Dethroned" by Gerrard Hickson

« on: June 19, 2022, 03:22:05 PM »

Incorrect, Longitude clearly argues that Hipparchus believed in a small universe like Ptolemy. He states at the end of his second post: -

" Instead of astronomers originally thinking the stars were infinitely distant or unthinkingly accepting the opinion of their predecessors, the impression from reading their works is a growing understanding of how much bigger they each realise the universe is than previously thought; "

He suggests that astronomers did not originally think the stars were infinitely distant and eventually realized that it was enormous. This is clearly wrong.

Incorrect. Hickson maintains Hipparchus believed the "heavenly bodies are infinitely distant" but never substantiates this. Having checked the works of Ptolemy and the few other secondhand records of Hipparchus's writings, I cannot find anything to substantiate this either. I don't know what Hipparchus believed about the distance to the stars, but if you know of a citation or reference which clearly tells us, I'd be obliged if you shared it.