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Offline AATW

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6560 on: October 13, 2020, 07:15:04 PM »
AATW says that Trump handled it wrongly and it was a disaster.
Can you point out where I said that?

Although in number 29 in the video Trump references the 2.2m prediction and said if they could keep it down to 100,000 they’d have done a “very good job”. Well, that ship has sailed.
So...yeah, Trump clearly can’t think he’s done a good job.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6561 on: October 13, 2020, 07:15:51 PM »
I’m sorry you can’t see that the USA underperformed compared to almost every other country despite having vastly superior resources at their disposal.

Your country is a sad, pathetic meme when it comes to its COVID response and Trump is leading the charge.

No. You're projecting again. The CDC stated that 94% of people who died from this in the US had other serious diseases going on. Any difference in COVID death counts between countries could simply be due to how many more sick people there are. Maybe in the European cesspit of medical science people with cancer and other serious diseases are dying sooner.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada-gets-high-ranking-for-cancer-survival-rates-1.309105

"The U.S. has a five-year survival rate in all the cancers studied of 91.9 per cent, while Europe's is much lower at 57.1 per cent."

So sick people with cancer are surviving for longer in the US vs Europe, which means that there are more sick people in the US, per million. Everything isn't on an even plane. There could also be higher rates of sicker people in different countries for various reasons. Or more older people, for various reasons. Once again, the CDC said that 94% of people who died from this in the US had other serious illnesses.

As you stated, statistics are not science. There is no certainty on what they mean.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 07:39:55 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6562 on: October 13, 2020, 07:17:59 PM »
Where did Trump tell people to ignore medical professionals and refuse to wear masks or tell people not to wear masks? Please provide a source for that. I see that you are fibbing again.

Well, how about today:

"Trump hits Fauci, says his 'pitching arm' is 'far more accurate than his prognostications'"
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-hits-fauci-coronavirus-prognostications-pitching-arm

The graph could be red because people in California and NY gathered and got it earlier. These statistics are not science, as stated by Rama Set.

Could be. But that sure is a lot of red to go around. Also could be that if Trump were more of a science advocate/supporter rather than perpetually claiming he knew/knows better, there would be a lot less red where the red is now. And yeah, just stats, not science. But still pretty wowing.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6563 on: October 13, 2020, 07:27:58 PM »
Trump made things WORSE by refusing to wear masks, by telling people it was a hoax, by encouraging people to ignore the health professionals.

Where did Trump tell people to ignore medical professionals and refuse to wear masks or tell people not to wear masks? Please provide a source for that. I see that you are fibbing again

I see you're misquoting again.

It was months before Trump was seen in public wearing a mask. That is him refusing to wear one.

I've highlighted your misquote
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6564 on: October 13, 2020, 07:37:33 PM »
So you guys can't provide a source of Trump instructing people to ignore medical professionals, or where he said anything about refusing to wear a mask, or said anything to discourage people to wear masks. Got it. You guys are just fibbing as usual then, for your own political meandering.

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Offline JSS

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6565 on: October 13, 2020, 07:38:44 PM »
Where did Trump tell people to ignore medical professionals and refuse to wear masks or tell people not to wear masks? Please provide a source for that. I see that you are fibbing again.

You keep calling me a liar, please stop that.  I never said Trump told people not to wear masks. I said Trump encouraged people to ignore medical advice, which he did.

Lets look at what I actually said, since you didn't quote me when you made your accusation.

Trump made things WORSE by refusing to wear masks,

This is not a lie.  He didn't wear a mask in public until July 12th.  He avoided wearing them until then, even when visiting mask factories and in close contact with people and when he was asked to wear one he refused.  This made things worse, by encouraging his followers to emulate his bad behavior.  He didn't put on a mask until far, far after everyone else was.  SInce then he's gone from saying masks are good to saying they have problems to making fun of people for using them. All over the map.

by telling people it was a hoax,

This is not a lie.  Trump said this outright in a campaign speech.  You want a video of it?

by encouraging people to ignore the health professionals.

This is not a lie.  Here is some more anti-mask talk by Trump. 

“Now there are, by the way, a lot of people don’t want to wear masks"
"There are a lot of people think that masks are not good.”

Howe about this?  He directly contradicted Dr. Redfield. That's directly telling people to disregard medical advice.

Dr. Robert Redfield, the head of the CDC. Redfield testified about masks, saying: “We have clear scientific evidence they work, and they are our best defense. I might even go so far as to say that this face mask is more guaranteed to protect me against Covid than when I take a Covid vaccine.”

Trump challenged that comment, saying, “Number one, it’s not more effective, by any means, than a vaccine.”


Then look at the super spreader event he hosted, where nobody nobody had to wear masks or social distance.  That infected a dozen people that we know of so far.  Trump has been all over the map here too, and has stated many times his disdain for masks and people who use them and their effectiveness.

He made fun of Biden for wearing a mask.

How about his pushing of Hydroxychloroquine when medical professionals were advising against it?

He's made this disaster worse. No lie.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6566 on: October 13, 2020, 07:53:19 PM »
Now, no one has ever said Trump did nothing

AATW says that Trump handled it wrongly and it was a disaster.

And which one of those opinions is a lie?
He literally says “we have it totally under control” in the first one. Back in January.

The 220,000 dead Americans would beg to differ

So Trump did things that saved the lives of millions of Americans, by this logic.

Quote from: JSS
That was a projection of what could happen if we did nothing.

And Trump did things and saved millions of lives. Thanks for admitting that.

What did Trump do?  Because last I checked, he was fighting "the liberals" in mask wearing and social distancing that states were implementing.  I don't recall a federal requirement for masks.  Do you?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6567 on: October 13, 2020, 07:55:15 PM »
So you guys can't provide a source of Trump instructing people to ignore medical professionals, or where he said anything about refusing to wear a mask, or said anything to discourage people to wear masks.

JSS just provided the first.

His actions exhibit refusal, whether he says it or not.

JSS provided the quote to rebut the third.

Tom, when someone addresses (say) two out of three things that you say, that's not your cue to say that NOBODY can address your third point, and claim victory.

Nobody responding to you is obliged to address absolutely everything you say. Missing out one point from three from one responder is not a concession on the remaining point by everyone here.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Rama Set

Re: Trump
« Reply #6568 on: October 13, 2020, 07:55:51 PM »
No. You're projecting again.

lol wut?

Quote
The CDC stated that 94% of people who died from this in the US had other serious diseases going on. Any difference in COVID death counts between countries could simply be due to how many more sick people there are. Maybe in the European cesspit of medical science people with cancer and other serious diseases are dying sooner.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada-gets-high-ranking-for-cancer-survival-rates-1.309105

"The U.S. has a five-year survival rate in all the cancers studied of 91.9 per cent, while Europe's is much lower at 57.1 per cent."

So sick people with cancer are surviving for longer in the US vs Europe, which means that there are more sick people in the US, per million. Everything isn't on an even plane. There could also be higher rates of sicker people in different countries for various reasons. Once again, the CDC said that 94% of people who died from this in the US had other serious illnesses.

So despite Europe being a "cesspit of medical science" they can still keep more COVID patients alive.  That's the argument you want to make?

Quote
As you stated, statistics are not science. There is no certainty on what they mean.

I said the first part, I have never said the second.  That is your editorial that you have taken up while simultaneously trumpeting your 94%.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6569 on: October 13, 2020, 08:16:39 PM »
Tangential to Trump comes the news that his SCOTUS nominee Barrett is on the receiving end of a letter from 88 (eighty-eight) of her faculty colleagues at Notre Dame saying she should withdraw from nomination to the Supreme Court.

Eight-eight, urging her to withdraw. Just from her own college faculty. Not from the wider legal profession, nor the general public, just from her own college faculty.

https://teacher-scholar-activist.org/2020/10/13/an-open-letter-to-judge-amy-coney-barrett-from-your-notre-dame-colleagues/

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6570 on: October 13, 2020, 08:18:25 PM »
Quote from: Tunemi
Tom, when someone addresses (say) two out of three things that you say, that's not your cue to say that NOBODY can address your third point, and claim victory.

If you had followed the conversation, JSS was trying to argue that Trump caused the extra deaths in the 200,000 because he was encouraging people to ignore medical advice and refused to wear masks. It must have been something more than him not wearing masks in public if he caused those extra deaths. So lets see Trump telling people to ignore medical professionals. So far nothing has been provided on this.

Quote from: JSS
You keep calling me a liar, please stop that.

Why? You said that Trump told people to ignore medical professionals and refuse to provide a source.

Quote
This is not a lie.  Here is some more anti-mask talk by Trump.

“Now there are, by the way, a lot of people don’t want to wear masks"
"There are a lot of people think that masks are not good.”

Howe about this?  He directly contradicted Dr. Redfield. That's directly telling people to disregard medical advice.

Dr. Robert Redfield, the head of the CDC. Redfield testified about masks, saying: “We have clear scientific evidence they work, and they are our best defense. I might even go so far as to say that this face mask is more guaranteed to protect me against Covid than when I take a Covid vaccine.”

None of that is a direction to people to ignore medical professionals.

There were a range of opinions from medical professionals on the topic of masks.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 08:29:01 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6571 on: October 13, 2020, 08:26:37 PM »
Tom: The media lies.
Also Tom: Here's a bunch of articles from the media to prove my point.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline JSS

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6572 on: October 13, 2020, 08:36:05 PM »
Quote from: Tunemi
Tom, when someone addresses (say) two out of three things that you say, that's not your cue to say that NOBODY can address your third point, and claim victory.

If you had followed the conversation, JSS was trying to argue that Trump caused the extra deaths in the 200,000 because he was encouraging people to ignore medical advice and refused to wear masks. It must have been something more than him not wearing masks in public if he caused those extra deaths. So lets see Trump telling people to ignore medical professionals. So far nothing has been provided on this.

Quote from: JSS
You keep calling me a liar, please stop that.

Why? You said that Trump told people to ignore medical professionals and refuse to provide a source.

When did I refuse to provide a source?  You called me a liar in your very first response. Show me where I said I wasn't going to provide a source or stop saying that.

Trump did indeed tell people to ignore medical advice, I gave you a quote.  Here is it again.  That is Trump directly contradicting a doctor telling people masks are effective. Trump is telling people to believe him instead of a doctor, that by definition, is telling them to ignore their advice and take his instead.

Dr. Robert Redfield, the head of the CDC. Redfield testified about masks, saying: “We have clear scientific evidence they work, and they are our best defense. I might even go so far as to say that this face mask is more guaranteed to protect me against Covid than when I take a Covid vaccine.”

Trump challenged that comment, saying, “Number one, it’s not more effective, by any means, than a vaccine.”


Lets not even get started on the whole injecting yourself with disinfectants thing. 

"a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning." - Trump

"I certainly wouldn't recommend the internal ingestion of a disinfectant." - Food and Drug Administration chief Dr. Stephen Hahn

Or Hydroxychloroquine, which you ignored.  He certainly pushed THAT pretty hard.

“What do you have to lose? Take it.” - Trump



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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6573 on: October 13, 2020, 09:15:05 PM »
Quote from: JSS
Or Hydroxychloroquine, which you ignored.  He certainly pushed THAT pretty hard.

And it works. There are more positive studies than negative studies, and 100% of early treatment studies show effectiveness.

Meta-Analysis: https://c19study.com/



Quote from: JSS
When did I refuse to provide a source?  You called me a liar in your very first response. Show me where I said I wasn't going to provide a source or stop saying that.

You still have not provided a source of Trump instructing people to ignore medical advice. You are just posting things that you are absolutely wrong about. There have been a range of medical opinions on these topics of masks and Hydroxychloroquine, which Trump has discussed at various times. Pointing out these studies and opinions isn't telling people to ignore medical advice. Trump has never told people to ignore medical advice. So stop lying.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 09:26:05 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6574 on: October 13, 2020, 09:21:01 PM »
And it works

.. yet Trump wasn't treated with it at Walter Reed
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Re: Trump
« Reply #6575 on: October 13, 2020, 09:28:48 PM »
So stop lying.

Not providing a source isn't the same thing as lying.

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Offline JSS

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6576 on: October 13, 2020, 09:35:06 PM »
[You still have not provided a source of Trump instructing people to ignore medical advice. You are just posting things that you are absolutely wrong about. There have been a range of medical opinions on these topics of masks and Hydroxychloroquine, which Trump has discussed at various times. Pointing out these studies and opinions isn't telling people to ignore medical advice. Trump has never told people to ignore medical advice. So stop lying.

You are confusing people disagreeing with your opinion with lying.  You don't get to dictate what is true just because you say so.  So please stop calling me a liar.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #6577 on: October 14, 2020, 03:10:38 PM »
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Lord Dave

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If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Rama Set

Re: Trump
« Reply #6579 on: October 14, 2020, 09:30:33 PM »
Here is Trump calling lockdowns "unscientific".



Despite there being papers published in science journals on the efficacy of lockdowns.

So is he lying?  Is he ignoring scientists for political gain?  Is he simply a toolbox?

I will let the reader decide.