421

Flat Earth Community / Re: Can Globe believers prove Earth has curvature by their own Curvature Charts?

« on: November 12, 2018, 12:23:27 AM »

Mathematically it's a straightforward path to show that the earth has curvature over a landmass.  It would be easy if you understood the works of Nathaniel Bowditch and had a Sextant, accurate clock and a nautical almanac.  You can use a sextant inland.  I've personally done it in the Midwest where I live when I'm not at sea.  There is a YouTube video that shows the procedure.  When using this procedure you have to convince yourself that the only way it will work is by using spherical trigonometry on a globe earth.  Would it theoretically work on a flat earth?  Maybe, but I don't know of ANY accurate charts or ANY nautical almanacs that were made using the flat earth paradigm.  It really wouldn't be necessary because the existing procedures work and have for 100's of years.  Will you directly measure the curvature of the earth?  No, you won't.  The curvature of the earth is only a byproduct of the mathematical calculations you make.  If you changed the known radius of the earth then you wouldn't get an accurate answer.  The bottom line is this; you use the radius of the curvature of the earth and some spherical trigonometry to arrive at your position.  If you do that at a known position and you get that same position back after making your measurements and calculations using spherical trigonometry and the known radius figure of the earth, you have just proved that the radius is what you expected it to be.  If you don't believe that, just try another radius figure and see what happens.  You are looking at a curvature of only 8 inches in a mile.  It's really hard to directly observe.  I was out driving this afternoon and the earth really didn't look flat or round.  The highway just went up & down by 100s of feet over 4 or 5 miles.  There is no way I could tell whether the earth was flat or round.  If you believe in science and math you can do the experiments and convince yourself.  The hardest thing I had to do, years ago, was to figure out how the sextant can actually measure your position on the earth.  There is a theory and method to that madness that was worked up by Bowditch and those methods are still used today.  There is a couple hour YouTube video on celestial navigation that that I wish I had when I was starting.  I use H.H. Dutton's text book and taught myself, tried it on a sailboat, and it works.  I didn't get lost.

422

Flat Earth Community / Re: Can Globe believers prove Earth has curvature by their own Curvature Charts?

« on: November 11, 2018, 07:29:38 PM »

Yes, actually you can 'prove' it.  It just depends on what YOU would consider as proof.  For some you actually have to directly see something with your own eyes to believe it.  That procedure is fraught with difficulties.  There are plenty of YouTube videos that can explain curvature, if you choose to believe it.  Many will say those video must be fake.  Sometimes you can't even believe what you actually see with your own eyes.  Think that's wrong? Just visit a good magician and he will 'school' you.  Personally, I believe in math and science.  Theories were developed and then tested.  Is everything perfect?  No.  The theory that has actually worked for me in my everyday working life has been that the earth is an oblate spheroid.  If I had a land job and drove to work everyday and never had any other view except the land locked one, I could believe in a flat earth view myself.  Really, it wouldn't matter much anyway.  However, these days, much of the everyday goods you consume are produced in Asia.  That can be good or bad, but that's another subject.  Those goods largely arrive in the USA via container ship.  These ships are just glorified trucks that travel on the earth's oceans.  Soon these will probably be autonomous and won't have a human crew aboard.  At the present time there are human crews aboard.  The whole system is set up with the globe earth as the underlying principles.  Many of us spend 4 or 5 years at a merchant marine academy to learn the science behind getting from point A to point B on the globe.  Each and every thing is based upon the globe earth paradigm.  After we graduate we go to work on a ship and turn all that theory into practice.  It all seems to work.  That's why I believe.  Do I really need further proof?  No.    What kind of proof do YOU need?   

423

Flat Earth Community / Re: Can Globe believers prove Earth has curvature by their own Curvature Charts?

« on: November 11, 2018, 05:54:48 PM »

On my last ship we used WGS84 and British Admiralty charts.  We liked to stick with the WGS84 charts but as I recall there were some random areas where you needed to have an 'Admiralty' chart.  Every ship is required by international regulations to carry certain charts.  The chart list depended upon where our expected area of operation might be.  It was strange sometimes because we might have had a WGS84 chart for a larger general area but needed a 'Admiralty' chart for the approach to a particular port.  It really didn't matter because the chart areas overlapped a bit and you could seamlessly go from one chart to the next.  We had a large chart table with drawers below that were maybe 6 feet wide and 8 inches tall.  That way the large charts could lay flat and didn't have to be folded and could be pulled out and placed on the chart table easily.  The navigation officer could then lay his instruments on the chart and draw the necessary lines.  All the paper stuff is still required by international regulations, I believe, but we also had electronic charts.  The ECDIS (Electronic Chart Display and Information System) now is also a requirement. I downloaded and updated all our electronic charts on a weekly basis.  The navigational officer had to hand update the paper charts too, but he got overtime for that.  Take a quick look at the history of Gerardus Mercator and you can appreciate how modern charts got their start 100s years ago.  Mercator was willing to bet his very life that his view of the earth was the correct one.  Sailors operating on the high seas have been verifying that view everyday since.

424

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Irrefutable Proof of Curvature

« on: November 11, 2018, 02:38:00 AM »

I don't need any pictures to prove curvature.  All my claims are repeatable and have been done countless times.  I'm talking about navigation on the high seas.  Every deck officer aboard american flat ships have to learn celestial navigation.  Using the sun, moon, planets, and stars for navigational purposes only works on the globe earth model.  The nautical almanacs have the positions of the heavenly bodies charted and you use spherical trigonometry to arrive at your fix.  Many governments and government agencies produce charts based upon the globe earth model that are used for the celestial navigation process.  In my countless trips in all the major oceans on the earth I didn't get lost even once.  Since the globe earth navigation model works each and every time it's tried I can't think of any argument that can refute it's effectiveness.  Please let me know if all the global celestial navigation procedures that seamen have been using for 100's of years are BS.  I don't want anyone to get lost because all the theory is fake and won't properly work.

425

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: More on "13 Miles: 60 ft NOT Hidden".

« on: November 10, 2018, 05:25:14 PM »

The problem with the visualization of the flow of water is the simplification of the facts that have occurred over the years.  Water doesn't really flow downhill.  Water flows in the direction of the resultant force vector of the sum of all the forces acting upon it.  I know that I just went off the 'deep end', so to speak.  I got this lesson from my college engineering courses in fluid mechanics.  You combine that with the courses in statics and dynamics and you can get a feel for just why water really behaves like it does.  Understanding water is essential for a seaman, it's what keeps you alive sometimes.  To me the fact that the rains fall, rivers flow to the seas, and that the seas can be curved around the globe have all proceeded from a comprehensive education in the characteristics of water.  That water covers the majority of the earth, flat or round.  There is no real mystery why Louisiana isn't flooded, although New Orleans needs some significant flood walls to keep the streets dry.  I know, real understanding is a high entry bar for most.  It's also irrelevant and not needed for those who live inland.  However for those who dare to educate themselves in the subject of water,  you can eventually understand why the globe earth model is the only thing that has ever worked.

426

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Test to debunk flat earth models

« on: November 10, 2018, 06:04:26 AM »

You are all forgetting that all you need to have is a sextant, an accurate clock, and a nautical almanac to use the moon, sun, planets, and stars for navigational purposes.  You simply measure the angle of the desired heavenly body above the horizon then look up the information you need in the nautical almanac at a specific time and you can plot a line of position.  This technique ONLY works on a global earth and has for 100 years.  It is tried & true and is unassailable proof that the earth is round.

427

Flat Earth Community / Re: Can Globe believers prove Earth has curvature by their own Curvature Charts?

« on: November 10, 2018, 05:31:07 AM »

I can see that you don't understand. I'm NOT aren't trying to put a 191 mile dome over Australia. It's just a way of doing a calculation of the earth's curvature.  You really can't see or feel the curvature in your everyday life.  I fully agree with that.  However, again, you couldn't feel the increase in the water depth of a swimming pool if you put a glass of water into it either.  That doesn't mean that there wasn't a change in water depth, because you know for a fact that there was, but you still can't feel it.  Some things you just can't feel from common everyday experience, but that doesn't mean that they aren't true.  The base of the towers of the Golden Gate bridge in San Francisco are about 2 inches narrower than at the top.  I know, it's not a big deal, but it still has to be true because of the curvature of the earth.  Humans are so small and the earth is so large, on a relative basis.  You probably don't understand just how you can hear someone talking on the radio in your car, but you know that they do, so you know the technology does work.  The earth's curvature is like that as well.  It's always there even if you can't feel it. 

428

Flat Earth Community / Re: Can Globe believers prove Earth has curvature by their own Curvature Charts?

« on: November 10, 2018, 03:59:52 AM »

There would be no reason to have anything but a flat horizon even on a spherical earth.  All I ever saw at sea was a flat horizon.  That argument is irrelevant.  You can easily show that the earth is curved by constructing two towers.  Both towers must be exactly vertical.  That is, both towers have to be pointed at the center of the earth.  You can actually do that with a free swinging plum bob, but it's a bit more difficult because it can be blown around by the wind.  Now if these two towers are separated by a bit of distance I can assure by that they wouldn't be parallel.  There would be a small angle between them.  The distance between the bottom of the towers would be a little shorter than the distance between the top of the towers.  If the two towers are only separated by a mile or so, the difference would be in inches.  I confess, it would be hard to get an accurate measurement because the size of the earth is large.  Think about this;  take a swimming pool and then as accurately as you can measure its depth at some fixed point.  Then pour in a glass of water.  You must admit that the water level has risen by the contents of the glass of water, but could you measure the difference?  I rather doubt it.  You could put the whole contents of the pool into the sea and the difference would be even smaller.  With modern technology the characteristics of the spherical earth are known down to a gnat's ass.  Even the GPS in my iPhone is accurate to within 10 feet or so.  All that technology is based on the earth being a sphere.  You can't argue with the fact that the system just works.  Throw all the crazy ideas out the window, get in your car, turn on the GPS, and a voice will guide you to your destination every time.  I don't know what more proof you need.

429

Flat Earth Community / Re: Can Globe believers prove Earth has curvature by their own Curvature Charts?

« on: November 10, 2018, 02:43:15 AM »

Go back and look at reply #16 from Earthman.  I will confess that the concept of the round earth is a bit hard to visualize in terms that you can easily see.  On the diagram in reply 16 notice the towers at each end.  Notice that if they were moved a couple thousand miles so they were side by side they would not be parallel.  The main concept that is critical to realize is that vertical on the earths surface means that line that points towards the center of the earth.  If you had two lines separated by a couple of thousand miles, the angle between them would be about 35 degrees.  If you could actually dig a tunnel under Australia that connected to the ocean on each side the water would not have any tendency to flow because the sea levels would be the same at both ends.  The top of the tunnel would be about 190 miles below the surface in the center, give or take the heights of any mountains in the area.  Again, I know that this is difficult to visualize in real life.  The other concept to internalize is that water doesn't seek it's own level, but does seek the center of gravity on the earth.  Each drop of water seeks the center of gravity in the area where it happens to be at the time.  This assumes that there is no other forces on the drop of water such as a wind or tidal current for an example.  If this were not the case then you might expect that there would be a strong current in the Suez Canal since this connects the Mediterranean Sea with the Red Sea.  I have personally been thru the Suez Canal countless times and can assure you that any currents are just due to things like unequal rains between the two seas and other minor factors like that.  Since each drop of water individually seeks the center of gravity on the earth no matter where it happens to be you could see how the oceans could actually gently curve.  Yes, I admit that this effect is difficult to see because of numerous atmospheric effects.  Personally, I look at it this way, I went to sea for a living for the last 20 years.  Every map and instrument we have aboard the ship is based upon the earth being mostly spherical.  All our training with celestial navigation assumes that the earth is a sphere.  I have crossed just about all the oceans in the world over this period of time and haven't got lost even once.  This would not be possible if all the theory and practice we learned didn't work.  What more proof of the concept would you need?  I bet my life on the round earth and King Neptune hasn't gotten me yet.   

430

Flat Earth Community / Re: Can Globe believers prove Earth has curvature by their own Curvature Charts?

« on: November 10, 2018, 01:00:17 AM »

All you would need would be to spend about $100,000 for a couple of Theodolites. Then you could make a complete geodetic survey of Australia.  Of course you would have to understand the theory of the equipment and how it makes the measurements of the actual curvature of the earth.  You could also look up the survey data on line that the government does publish.  Since you probably don't trust the government you would be better to do your own research on the project so you would be completely satisfied with the result.  Probably there are topographic maps also available for a price if you are so inclined.  As for me, I'm totally satisfied to make the rough calculations and know that they are correct.   

431

Flat Earth Community / Re: Post Your Favorite NASA ISS Fails

« on: November 09, 2018, 10:19:12 PM »

Since there are already others commenting on the video, I will also take the liberties to do so, even though it should actually be done elsewhere.  This video actually is represented as 'fake', but just go to 9:21 on the video and you will see what the 'real' story is.  It looks to me like the original video was of a NASA rehearsal in a pool.  You can see the divers messing with something in the background for a couple of seconds, and then a little later for a couple of seconds more.  Then the background is altered and the divers are blocked out.  Do you really think that NASA was doing the alterations of the video and trying to pass it off as a procedure done in space?  You really think that they are that incompetent?  Any video can be altered by anyone to suit their agenda and then use it as evidence to support their point.  There is no real point in posting any videos under these circumstances. 

432

Flat Earth Community / Re: Can Globe believers prove Earth has curvature by their own Curvature Charts?

« on: November 09, 2018, 10:00:35 PM »

To test what vertical actually is, consider a thought experiment.  You all know about the leaning tower of Pisa in Italy.  Location is at 43-43-23N and 10-23-43E.   Assume that it leans by 4 degrees to the South (180 degrees).  Now assume that you could hire an alien contractor who had an anti-gravity machine that could pick the leaning tower up an move it.  During the moving process the tower would remain pointing in an absolute fixed direction in space.  Could the tower be moved to another location that would be perfectly vertical on the earth?   

433

Flat Earth Community / Re: Question for research paper: What convinced you that the earth is flat?

« on: November 09, 2018, 04:44:36 PM »

There are a lot of mis-information on here.  The quote "water seeks it's own level" should be corrected to "Water seeks the center of gravity" just like every other thing with mass in the known universe.  Seamen know that the earth is a globe.  All their navigational education, charts, and procedures are based upon the earth being a globe.  It's been that way for over 100 years.  When I go to sea and depend on the global navigation techniques to get me across the oceans, my getting to the next port without getting lost is actual, practical proof that the globe earth system works.  Now that I'm home and didn't get killed by King Neptune, I believe that I'm living proof that the earth is a globe.

434

Flat Earth Community / Re: Can Globe believers prove Earth has curvature by their own Curvature Charts?

« on: November 09, 2018, 12:51:02 PM »

Yes, the diagram is essentially what my 'back of the envelope' calculations shows.  The math seems to be correct.

435

Flat Earth Community / Re: Can Globe believers prove Earth has curvature by their own Curvature Charts?

« on: November 09, 2018, 01:39:44 AM »

I went from Coral Bay 23-08-34S / 113-46-05E to the Point Cartwright Light house near Buddina 26-40-46S / 153-08-18E.  The total great circle distance was about 2470 miles with the midpoint at about 26-15-16S / 133-09-33E.  The starting and ending points are near sea level, give or take what the tides might be.  All three points (start, end, center) are all relatively close to the same distance from the earths center at 3959 miles away, give or take the topography of the land near the center.  If you draw a straight line thru the earths diameter circle between the starting point and ending point it will be at about 191 miles below the center position.  To do it another way, if you constructed towers at the starting and ending points and drew a straight line between the towers (each 194 miles high) the line would just graze the surface of the earth near the center point.  The towers had to be just a bit taller because they would have to be at an angle of a little less than 18 degrees relative to the vertical at the center.  However both towers would be perfectly vertical and pointing toward the earths center at each end. All the calculations are classified, believe them if you dare.

436

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: More on "13 Miles: 60 ft NOT Hidden".

« on: November 09, 2018, 12:56:45 AM »

This view is pretty typical of a container ship starting to disappear below the curvature of the earth.  After going to sea for 20 years on ships, this was a typical sight that I saw all the time.  We had a big telescope mounted to the deck (it was that big) that could zoom in and see a hemorrhoid on a gnat's ass bending over, and you still wouldn't be able to see the hull disappearing over the horizon.  For the flat earth folks reading this; Rowbotham was a landlubber and didn't understand what happens to ships when they go over the horizon.  Please wise up and start reading about Nathaniel Bowditch and he will school you about what really happens on the globe earth.  I never got lost going to sea by using Bowditch's works so you know it isn't a bunch of BS.   

437

Flat Earth Community / Re: Can Globe believers prove Earth has curvature by their own Curvature Charts?

« on: November 08, 2018, 08:53:34 PM »

The biggest problem with doing anything with a globe earth is that you are essentially working in 3 dimensions.  Any flat earth calculations are easy because it's all on a flat plane.  Spherical calculations require more math.  I was bit by that fact years ago when I started learning celestial navigation.  At that time I didn't have anything on spherical trigonometry but was able to borrow a math text book that had a section on that subject.  It takes a while for everything to make some sense.  I don't blame the flat earth advocates.  Their ideas make things easier.  Unfortunately, if we tried doing basic trigonometry while working out navigation problems at sea King Neptune would have gotten us a long time ago.  Any flat earth advocates want to meet the King?   

438

Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level

« on: November 08, 2018, 08:35:46 PM »

I am surprised you guys haven't looked at the publications 'The American Practical Navigator' or the 'Nautical Almanac'.  These publications contain a wealth of information regarding what kind of effects the atmosphere has on the measurements of heavenly bodies.  The theory of the sextant would be most interesting as well.  Yes, height of eye and atmospheric refraction are important considerations in these measurements.  You can even buy a sextant for a reasonable price.  I used to have a plastic Davis sextant that was really quite accurate.  My only problem with it was when I was 'shooting the sun'.  Even a small amount of warping due to the sunlight on a hot day would alter the measurements a little when you are trying to measure angles to the second. I never had any accuracy problems when measuring the moon, stars, or planets at night.  If you are land locked, you can even use a pool of water to get your sights.  I can personally attest that it works, but takes some practice.  In WWII the bomber crews used a bubble sextant for their long distance navigation across the Pacific to bomb Japan.  I often have supper with a pilot who did just that.  He said he never got lost, but came close a couple of times and survived the war.  Of course the flat earth community probably doesn't believe much in that kind of technology because it assumes that the earth is a rotating sphere in orbit around the sun.  On the other hand, it is quite difficult to argue with something that works if properly used.  If it didn't then mariners would have been getting lost for 100's of years.  That hasn't been happening so it's safe to assume that their idea of the earth has some validity.

439

Flat Earth Community / Re: Can Globe believers prove Earth has curvature by their own Curvature Charts?

« on: November 08, 2018, 03:43:40 AM »

You have about 35 degrees of the globe, that means that you would need a tower of about 190-191 miles at each side of Australia to have a clear line of sight between the towers (assuming no buildings or mountains near the center of curvature) .  The horizon would be about 17 to 18 degrees below level. The tops of the towers would be about 2868 miles away from each other  All my calculations are classified (RE) calculations, access limited.

440

Flat Earth Community / Re: Who is at the top of the Conspiracy?

« on: November 08, 2018, 01:14:01 AM »

The dome above us is just the bottom of the flat earth above us.  Our bottom is just the top of the dome of the earth below us.  All the NASA flights are just commuter runs between the other earths stacked above and below us.  All the earths are just a giant apartment like complex sitting in space.  Maybe someday the aliens will just come in and cull the herd.  Take a look at The Twilight Zone episode 'To Serve Man'.  It's on the net. NASA is just working for the aliens and it's some alien race who is at the top of the Conspiracy!