Star tracks in the southern hemisphere
« on: August 28, 2017, 05:16:01 AM »
If you take a time exposure photo at night, you see star tracks. In the northern hemisphere, these seem consistent with both flat earth and round earth models.
e.g. https://www.flickr.com/photos/65685660@N07/6779850168

But in the southern hemisphere, the star tracks appear to be circling a south celestial pole. In the flat earth model, shouldn't star tracks in the southern hemisphere be on an ever increasing radius?
http://oldweb.aao.gov.au/images/captions/aat006.html

What's the mechanism for southern hemisphere star tracks appearing to circle a pole?

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Offline J-Man

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Re: Star tracks in the southern hemisphere
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2017, 03:30:54 AM »
Explain to me how you get either of these images in an axis rotating globe around a sun circling the milky way candy bar, by Mars of course.

Preposterous.... DROPS MIC

Oh I'll see ya all tomorrow, have to go to bed, have a big day tomorrow doing nothing :)
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Star tracks in the southern hemisphere
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2017, 11:27:02 AM »
Explain to me how you get either of these images in an axis rotating globe around a sun circling the milky way candy bar, by Mars of course.

Preposterous.... DROPS MIC

Oh I'll see ya all tomorrow, have to go to bed, have a big day tomorrow doing nothing :)

How are those images made?  You put a camera onto a tripod after sunset, set it for a LONG exposure (many hours) - and the resulting image is what you see above.   Do this same experiment in the Northern and Southern hemispheres and you can CLEARLY see the stars orbiting a common point above the North and South poles respectively.

Your oh-so-clever jokes about the names of candy bars and objects in the sky demonstrate a childish naivite.  Those candy bars were named after the actual objects - and not the other way around.

On a clear night, even in a fairly light-polluted city, you can easily see Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn with the naked eye.   If you are a patient thinking person rather than a juvenile troll - you can even notice how their positions change from hour to hour and from day to day at the same times.

From those observations, you can deduce how the solar system operates.

It's not even all that difficult.  You just have to care about the enormity and beauty of the things you're looking at.

But stupid jokes about names is much easier.

You do realize that NOBODY (not even the other Flat Earthers) takes you seriously - right?

Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Re: Star tracks in the southern hemisphere
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2017, 07:20:06 PM »
Explain to me how you get either of these images in an axis rotating globe around a sun circling the milky way candy bar, by Mars of course.


I'm not sure if you mean
a) these images aren't real
or
b) these images can't be explained by round earth theory.

a) you can go outside after dark and if you watch the night sky with your eyeballs for an hour or two you can perceive the motion of the stars.
b) I don't understand your comment. If the earth is a globe spinning, how else would you expect stars that are light years away to appear?

I guess a follow up question is: What do you expect star tracks to look like in the northern hemisphere? Doesn't FET expect them to match exactly what they look like?
What do you expect star trails to look like in the southern hemisphere?

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Offline CriticalThinker

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Re: Star tracks in the southern hemisphere
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2017, 09:26:05 PM »
Explain to me how you get either of these images in an axis rotating globe around a sun circling the milky way candy bar, by Mars of course.


I'm not sure if you mean
a) these images aren't real
or
b) these images can't be explained by round earth theory.

a) you can go outside after dark and if you watch the night sky with your eyeballs for an hour or two you can perceive the motion of the stars.
b) I don't understand your comment. If the earth is a globe spinning, how else would you expect stars that are light years away to appear?

I guess a follow up question is: What do you expect star tracks to look like in the northern hemisphere? Doesn't FET expect them to match exactly what they look like?
What do you expect star trails to look like in the southern hemisphere?

You're better off ignoring him.  He isn't interested in any thoughtful conversation from either side.  He's just a troll and a very crude one to boot.  It's likely that he'll start swearing at you if you say anything he doesn't like and then the thread will be moved or locked.

There are other's that are willing to engage in thoughtful conversation though and hopefully they will chime in on your initial question.  J-man just doesn't appear to be one of them.

Thank You,

CritcalThinker
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

Re: Star tracks in the southern hemisphere
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2017, 12:45:16 AM »
I don't understand how this isn't an interesting topic of conversation for flat earth proponents.

What do you expect the motion of stars in the southern hemisphere to be?

Offline mtnman

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Re: Star tracks in the southern hemisphere
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2017, 02:22:57 AM »

From those observations, you can deduce how the solar system operates.

It's not even all that difficult.

If it was that easy, people would have understood the relationship between the Earth and sun hundreds of years ago. Oh wait, they did that didn't they. Never mind.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Star tracks in the southern hemisphere
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2017, 02:01:56 PM »

From those observations, you can deduce how the solar system operates.

It's not even all that difficult.

If it was that easy, people would have understood the relationship between the Earth and sun hundreds of years ago. Oh wait, they did that didn't they. Never mind.

It's kinda interesting really.

Certainly we understood the motion of sun, stars, planets, etc relative to Earth hundreds...possibly even a thousand or more years ago.

But it was only in the time of Galileo, in the 1600's (arguably) that we finally figured out that the sun was at the center and the Earth orbited around it.  That's actually quite a tough thing to prove.

That's weird because if you believe FET, then conclusively proving that the sun ISN'T at the center of the solar system should be trivial...and you'd think that someone as undoubtedly smart as Galileo would have figured it out.

The thing that truly amazes me about Flat Earthers as a group is that they need such an insanely complicated system to explain simple stuff.

In RET, the motions of all of the stars, planets, sun and moons can all be explained from one tiny equation (F= m1 x m2 x G / (d x d)) - that one SIMPLE thing explains the shapes of these bodies, and almost all of their motions.   It explains sunsets, eclipses, the phases and orientation of the moon, syzygy's, comets, asteroids, galaxies, black holes, the length of the day, the seasons, the "midnight sun" over the poles...SO much of what we see...all with just one incredibly simple equation.   We don't require planet-wide conspiracies shared across hundreds of years and governments who hate each other.

RET is *SO* simple, so incredibly elegant.   All of that complexity springing simply and (almost) flawlessly from a single equation.

(Almost - because it took Albert Einstein and general relativity to explain the precise details of the orbit of Mercury.)

In FET, all of those things move in bizarre ways for no good reason, the earth accelerates upwards with no observable power source, an extra object (the shadow object) has to be introduced to explain lunar eclipses - I still don't understand how they can claim moon phases.  Even the tiny fraction of these things that are well explained require all manner of carefully tuned mechanisms.

Why do the FET planets move in EXACTLY the way they need to move in order to make it look precisely as though they, and the Earth, are traveling in simple ellipses around the Sun?  In FET, their paths are (to say the least) bizarre - changing direction completely for no obvious reason - doing crazy complicated dances that just HAPPEN to operate exactly as if they were being pulled around (along with the Earth) by the sun's gravity.   Yet the stars do no such thing...they obey even crazier rules (which don't actually work BTW) to make them swirl around in opposite directions in the Northern and Southern hemiplanes (without doing some kind of opposite-direction flow at the equator).

The weirdest part is that FET has the hardest time explaining the simplest phenomena - and the "laws of nature" that it requires seem to be carefully designed to make it look EXACTLY as if the world is round!   The sheer unlikelyness of a Flat Earth having laws of physics that make it appear to be round to every single test you can apply to it...that's astonishingly unlikely.

The sheer implausibility of the towering pile of wobbly, unprovable, debunkable, self-contradictory assumptions that is the FET are it's ultimate disproof.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 08:35:48 PM by 3DGeek »
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

devils advocate

Re: Star tracks in the southern hemisphere
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2017, 08:22:09 PM »
3D rocks!!!

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Star tracks in the southern hemisphere
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2017, 08:37:08 PM »
3D rocks!!!

Nah - I'll just use ANY excuse to use my favorite word ("syzygy") in a sentence!  :-)

Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Re: Star tracks in the southern hemisphere
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2017, 08:32:01 AM »
I found a reference to "celestial gears" here:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1358.msg22975#msg22975

Quote
The Coriolis effect, at least as far as wind currents are concerned, is most likely caused by celestial gears, the same mechanism that leads to stars rotating in opposite directions across the hemidiscs.

Searching for celestial gears I found this:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=18122.msg319759#msg319759

I then searched the wiki and found this:
https://wiki.tfes.org/Stars
I don't see anything in there about celestial gears or the southern sky, but  in that "theflatearthsociety.org" post it seems that Tom Bishop has an idea for why you see southern "poles" in the stars motions:

Quote
The stars spin in opposite directions over certain areas because that is what is observed. That's simply how the stars move. The turning of the "gears" keep each other generally moving in opposite directions. Not literal gears, but celestial systems rubbing against each other, affecting each other gravometrically.

Over the Flat Earth exists a number of stellar multiple systems. One is over Australia, one is over South America, and another is over the North Pole. Each have unique properties and keep each other in motion via gravitational gears. Formation was caused by a conglomerate of stellar interactions and the influence of the sun which makes a path through the teeth of these gears.

Here is an animation for visual effect:



The movement of these stars is what is attributed to the Focault Pendulum, Corolis Effect, gyroscopes, and other spinning phenomena. Bodies will be captured geometrically and propelled in the direction and apogee of the close stars overhead, which make one rotation around the hub per twenty four hours. The South Celestial Systems over the Southern Hemisphere are spinning in the opposite direction and so bodies will be deflected in the opposite direction.

As for why the stars spin in different directions over different parts of the earth; that's more of a hypothetical question. No true answer will ever be given because astronomy is completely observational. There is no experimentation in Astronomy. Any number of stellar models could be created to explain the movements of such intricate multiple systems.

Is anybody interested in updating the wiki to contain such information? It's really interesting to think about having multiple celestial poles, one over each major continent. Questions arising from that include:
- Is there another system over Africa?
- Why do all the southern systems look identical but the northern system is different? Why aren't the multiple southern systems unique so you have different stars in South America than in Australia?
- Is there a separate system over all the other places we can go such as Tahiti, or are we still just seeing the ones over the major continents?
- If we can see the discontinuity between south and north over such a large portion of the earth, why can't we see the discontinuities between the multiple southern stellar multiple systems?

Re: Star tracks in the southern hemisphere
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2017, 01:10:03 AM »
Oh wow, just found "Round earth information repository" which covers this quite well - there's a post there with both the round and flat earth explanations for the South Celestial Pole.

It includes the celestial gear ideas and all the questions I had (and then some):

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=5225.msg102964#msg102964

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Star tracks in the southern hemisphere
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2017, 12:55:23 PM »
Oh wow, just found "Round earth information repository" which covers this quite well - there's a post there with both the round and flat earth explanations for the South Celestial Pole.

It includes the celestial gear ideas and all the questions I had (and then some):

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=5225.msg102964#msg102964

Are you conveniently ignoring all of the rather obvious objections to this in my subsequent post?

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=5225.msg126995#msg126995

Truly - that thread explains NOTHING about FE star motion that remotely holds water.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Re: Star tracks in the southern hemisphere
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2017, 06:07:07 PM »
dude i'm on your team

(that link goes to show both RE and FE models and explains some problems with the FE models.)

But yes, you raised the same objections I did. My favorite involves traveling to Tahiti to see the region where the gears are grinding together.

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Offline Sushi

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Re: Star tracks in the southern hemisphere
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2017, 07:49:53 PM »
In addition in northern hemisphere you see completely different stars then in southern hemisphere.
On flat earth you would see same stars, no matter from which point of the disc.

Re: Star tracks in the southern hemisphere
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2017, 11:22:20 PM »
And in the flat-earth model, star trails would look like this.  (but they don't)

The hallmark of true science is repeatability to the point of accurate prediction.

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Offline J-Man

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Re: Star tracks in the southern hemisphere
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2017, 01:41:13 AM »
And in the flat-earth model, star trails would look like this.  (but they don't)



Less than 1% of the entire world believe in Flat EArth, this website is named after those peeps but you have this driving force with a couple others to convert us? Or is it that we bring such goodness to the topics like this "stars", you get all scared we might convert some who have been tricked.

Now what was the silly question? Oh yeah star trails, they look bitchen huh?

GOD did it.....

I thought the FE models with the dome showed why they look the way they do with perspective. Did we all miss that video with the diagram, plates and lights flashing? Shall I pull it up for you?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 02:08:37 AM by J-Man »
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

Re: Star tracks in the southern hemisphere
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2017, 03:26:22 AM »
I thought the FE models with the dome showed why they look the way they do with perspective. Did we all miss that video with the diagram, plates and lights flashing? Shall I pull it up for you?

Yes, I have missed the answer about the dome with the video and diagram.
Part of the reason I come to this site is because flat earth theory and explanations interest me.
As my friendly flat-earth-guide I would greatly appreciate it if you pulled it up for me.  Thanks J-Man.
(btw I made that star trail picture from an image of the millennium falcon jumping to hyperspace.  It is pretty cool :) )
The hallmark of true science is repeatability to the point of accurate prediction.