The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Community => Topic started by: JHelzer on July 10, 2018, 04:33:54 PM

Title: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: JHelzer on July 10, 2018, 04:33:54 PM
Quote from: Neil Degrasse Tyson
There's a growing anti-intellectual strain in this country.  It may be the beginning of the end of our informed democracy.  Ofcourse, in a free society, you can and should think what ever you want and if you want to think the world is flat, go right ahead.  But if you think the world is flat and you have influence over others, then being wrong becomes being harmful to the health the wealth and the security of our citizenry.

We want to make sure, that the next person who joins the board to ask questions about their newly found belief, aren't misinformed. That the social presence of TFES doesn't lead young people to believe what TFES is actually claiming. To me, that's just as dangerous as religious indoctrination.

People might be coming here because they aren't sure, and then they see your facile arguments and they might start believing in nonsense. Believing in nonsense gets people killed. (https://www.smh.com.au/national/dead-babys-parents-ignored-advice-qc-20090504-asmt.html)

Is Flat Earth Theory dangerous?
Is tfes.org dangerous?
Is it harmful if a young person becomes convinced that the Earth is flat?
Is it harmful to our community for prominent figures to declare belief in the flat Earth?
What if you don't believe it? What if you're just messing around.  Is that dangerous?

What do you think?
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: ICanScienceThat on July 10, 2018, 04:43:02 PM
I think FET is very dangerous.

Rejection of objective facts is all over our political spectrum now, and it's very dangerous. If we're willing to throw away facts and just believe whatever we want, the future is doomed.

If we just decide to believe that printing money will solve our economic problems, our economy is doomed, and people will start to starve. Yet that's exactly what is happening in Venezuela right now.

What if we decide that nuclear war wouldn't be all that bad?

We can differ in ideologies, but we all share the same facts. It's time to start respecting facts again.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on July 10, 2018, 04:48:46 PM
This is a bizarre question. Exploring the world that surrounds us and trying to discover the truth should be viewed as nothing but beneficial to the individual.

I guess your question requires for one to, by blind faith, assume that the FET and/or Zetetic method are entirely incorrect. But even if that were the case, I can't see where the danger would be coming from. In case of the anti-vaccine movement, the potential risk is fairly clear: if vaccines are an effective way of preventing disease but people decide that they're actually an evil autism potion, well, we're gonna see a whole more disease out there.

It's great that you presented some quotes to open this thread. I believe that investigating the individuals who are afraid of FET may help us understand the underlying motives behind this assassination attempt. We've got Neil DeGrasse Tyson, an individual who frequently makes money by showing up on television and supposedly explaining why the Flat Earth Theory is bunk - but he doesn't address the theory at all. Instead, he talks about how gravity would squish the Earth into a ball, or makes inane statements about lunar eclipses (https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/934906611088359426).

We also have andruszkow, to whom I will be slightly kinder since he doesn't appear to be getting rich from his spreading of FUD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt). I will also not attack him here directly, but I will point out that he made his motivations clear in multiple threads here.

douglips's comment is a non-sequitur for reasons stated above. I do not yet know what his reasoning for making this attack might be. That said, Thork's response to his accusation in the original thread is pretty much spot-on.

I will close this conversation by highlighting the very real risk of militant Round Eartherism (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/flat-earth-debate-leads-to-fire-police-call-1.3634692). And, unlike all these cries, it's not just a hypothetical.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: JRowe on July 10, 2018, 05:00:07 PM
I like how the RE perspective is to just look at it from their own closed view of the world.

If FET is true, it is not dangerous. In that case RET should be the one that gets all the scorn you heap onto FET.
Mainstream science has become a cult, much like political discourse. You must agree with A, B and C to fit in; politically it's even more nonsensical, there's no reason topics like healthcare and homosexuality should be even remotely correllated and yet huge swathes of people are expected to only believe the same thing about one if they think the same about the other, and magically somehow they do! Borderline brainwashing. You get told to fit into a specific political model, left or right, Republican or Democrat, Labour or Tory (US-UK dual citizen here) so you end up doing just that even when all the disparate things surrounding you should not be connected.
Scientifically it's the same. You are taught what people believe, not how it was developed, not why it is believed; not for years on at least, by which point it's nicely ingrained.

But, just for fun, let's take a step back and look at it from a neutral perspective. No, forget that, let's look at it from your perspective, let's look at it from the FET-is-all-rubbish-and-wrong point of view.
What then? What is FET? It's people who are mistaken about something, and who go out... and try to work things out for themselves. Look at this society. It is open minded, it accepts different models and points of view. Yes it gives suggestions, what people have learned before, but it doesn't yoke you to them. One of the strengths of FET is open-mindedness. The FES tells us to go ahead and think for ourselves, a far cry from all the paranoid comparisons you're drawing.
It doesn't tell people to gout out and hurt each other, it doesn't tell people to start risking their lives or doing anything close.

And that's what sums it up, really. The danger is not FET, the danger is cults. Sure there are people like Dubay who want people to blindly follow him and to connect disparate threads, much like modern political parties, but he's one voice out of many. Someone interested in FET is going to google it and find a whole wealth of content to explore, multiple youtube channels discussing multiple models, and then this forum happily telling them to take their time, to see what works.
FET tells us to think for ourselves, not to blindly follow, and it is blindly following that has gotten the world into the mess it now is.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: Rushy on July 10, 2018, 05:06:33 PM
Well, first off,  I really don't appreciate the fact that the OP did not include any opinions of their own. I prefer an OP that includes their own thoughts rather than merely asking a very open ended question.

As Pete has already said, the question itself is bizarre, if only because we might have to suppose how dangerous the truth truly is. While telling people the truth might be inherently dangerous in some kind of way (e.g. the people would turn against a government they perceive as lying to them); we should not be frightened away from exposing truth merely because that truth is deemed dangerous to the world's current order. I could see that the answer to FET being dangerous is "yes" but I also believe that danger may be worth it in the grand scheme of things. Not so much that "the ends justify the means" but rather we are unraveling the damage already done by others.

In essence, we should ask not if FET is dangerous, but rather if RET is dangerous. An ongoing lie can do so much more damage than the truth could ever hope to accomplish. How many innocents continue to believe sweet fictions like Neil Armstrong hobbling about on the moon after climbing out of a capsule made of tin foil? Surely these sweet lies are the real danger to our society, not any sort of danger surrounding FET itself.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: ICanScienceThat on July 10, 2018, 05:19:25 PM
Very good points all.

The OP and my own post are dramatically flawed. They both ASSUME that the flat earth conjecture is not only wrong, but is obviously, provably wrong. I really should retract my statements and edit them. I'll leave them stand as credit to my admission of wrongitude.

What I should have said was, "Any belief in something that is obviously, provably wrong is dangerous because the rejection of objective facts is dangerous."

"Exploring the world that surrounds us and trying to discover the truth" is in no way dangerous. That is precisely what we should be doing. That is what a great many FE people say they are doing. So far, I haven't spoken to any FE believer who is actually doing that. So far, every single one of them is doing the opposite of that. A great many of them (as represented here in this thread) accuse me as an RE of failing to be objective. What this tells me is that we have a misunderstanding about what objectivity even is.

We can debate whether or not FE is obviously, provably wrong or not. But we already know that debate won't get us anywhere. It is really not the point, and I should apologize for writing as if it were an accepted fact.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: iamcpc on July 10, 2018, 05:35:27 PM

Is Flat Earth Theory dangerous?


What one? Since I've started researching this I've found like 30
If you mean the general idea that the earth is flat then the level of danger depends on how many people believe it and how strongly that belief affects other aspects of life. Generally I would say no.

If the flat earth theory comes along with rejecting standard units of measurement, cartography, moon rotation, navigation, satellites, laws of physics, astronomy, trigonometry, flights etc then I would say yes.


Is tfes.org dangerous?

I think that spreading the belief that no one knows what a map of the earth looks like is harmful.


Is it harmful if a young person becomes convinced that the Earth is flat?

One person? no. Not harmful. Even if a young person comes to the belief that they can't leave the house because the air is acid the percent is so small it's insignificant. If you drink a gallon of water that is 1 ppm cyanide you will be perfectly fine.

If that belief also comes with  rejecting standard units of measurement, cartography, moon rotation, navigation, satellites, laws of physics, astronomy, trigonometry, gravity, optics, flights, shipping logs etc and also spreads then I would say yes.

Is it harmful to our community for prominent figures to declare belief in the flat Earth?
What if you don't believe it? What if you're just messing around.  Is that dangerous?
What do you think?

If that belief spreads and if it comes along with rejecting things previously listed above it's much more harmful. Regardless of who declares it or what they really believe.

If one person declares that trees turn into air into ACID and chops down all the trees in his yard no big deal. If he convinces his neighbors to do the same and the belief spreads then it's dangerous.
















Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: iamcpc on July 10, 2018, 05:46:58 PM
This is a bizarre question. Exploring the world that surrounds us and trying to discover the truth should be viewed as nothing but beneficial to the individual.

Trying to discover the truth requires first saying you don't know what the truth is. The problem here is that many people here already have deep beliefs that they know what the truth is. A deep seated belief that something is fact or true is the opposite of Zetetic method.

A perfect example is cartography. As someone who has personally used road maps, atlesses, nature maps, GPS, google maps etc in various global travels, backpacking Europe, canoeing the great lakes, backpacking mountains, road trips, sailing trips and the like  I would say that there is VERY strong evidence that suggest that we have fairly accurately mapped the surface of the earth in North America, South America, Europe and Asia. (I've never personally been to Africa or Australia).

According to many people here such as Tom Bishop there is no accurate map of the earth. This is NOT an attempt to discover the truth. This is NOT Zetetic method. This is NOT exploring the world around you. This is the opposite. Verifying the accuracy of a map is pretty simple. Take a road trip. Explore the world around you.

Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on July 10, 2018, 06:04:43 PM
I think the driving ideals behind the Flat Earth hypothesis are good things. We should be ever curious, always trying to look behind the curtain and learn more about our world and everything in it. There's nothing wrong with this, in fact it's something that should be taught and encouraged to blossom more in our children. The 'dangerous' part of FE, imo, comes not from those looking to actually do this, but from those who are simply looking to trade one blind belief for another. The ones that watch a FE vid or two, or look at this site and simply think "Right on, down with the system!" or similar. There is no danger in exploring common held truths. If those truths turn out false, then we have progressed. If they hold up to scrutiny, they have become all the stronger for it. The danger lies in those who aren't interested in truth, but power. No matter which side they come from. In that vein I see lots of danger simmering within the 'pot' of Flat Earth. There's resentment towards the 'elite' building and for many that simply means those who are smarter/richer/more in some way than them. FE along with other things is becoming a potential flash point for these types. In that way FE IS dangerous. But no more so than any other anti-establishment conspiracy imo.

The dangers of FE essentially become most prevalent if it loses it's core, loses it's 'way' as it were. If it becomes less about learning and exploring things for yourself, and more about simply anti-establishment. Some fringes are starting to appear this way, but for the most part I believe it's still holding steady to that core ideal.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: Tumeni on July 10, 2018, 11:15:26 PM
Exploring the world that surrounds us and trying to discover the truth should be viewed as nothing but beneficial to the individual.

What explorations have you done, then?

When did you do them, what did you do, where were the results recorded? Who peer-reviewed what you did?
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: JHelzer on July 11, 2018, 01:16:44 AM
Apologies for the OP without my own opinion.  My excuse is that I posted it at the beginning of my work day intending to make a first and a second comment, but work got busy and I haven’t been able to come back until now.

Let me give my motivation in posting this topic.  I discovered tfes.org a year ago and I truly enjoy the interaction here.  I understand and identify with the RET I have been taught in school, but am also intrigued by the alternative ideas presented by FET.  During the past year, I’ve been through several phases as a tfes.org member.  I started with a discover phase where I just posted to understand better.  I passed through a truth phase where I wanted to correct people who were posting falsehoods.  I went through a project phase where I wanted to put effort in building models or maps to prove my points. Lately I’ve been in a clarification phase where I mostly just look for opportunities to clarify what someone else might be saying hoping for a peacemaker effect.
This past weekend I saw a perspective that could allow me to participate on the forum in a new way.  One that is more supportive and explorative of the FE ideas.  I find myself wanting to participate in talking more about flat-earth possibilities and my favorite flat-earth mind benders.  I want to be there when people first catch that glimpse and say, “No. Wait… Could it?  I never thought… No… wait a minute… I? What?”  I just love watching someone’s mind expand with possibilities.

This past weekend, as I contemplated speaking up more for FET, I felt a need to be honest with myself and what I write in the forum.  I’m not interested in creating a character.  I thought a lot about the questions I asked to open this topic.  I am exploring the possibility of finding a way to be a genuine FE contributor, but I do need to have this discussion and feel good about it.
In the end, I don’t believe sharing FET is harmful.  I agree with the general warnings people are giving about the dangers of rejecting factual evidence.  I can see how that is a problem with vaccinations and global climate change.  I can see how discordant beliefs in these areas cause damage to individuals and civilizations.  FET isn't the same.  Looking for ways to explain our world in a different model than the generally accepted one doesn't alarm me.  I like it.

I am out of time, but I am interested in this discussion.  Thanks all.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: douglips on July 11, 2018, 01:30:59 AM
My point is that there's a difference between someone honestly believing in FET and asking questions, and someone merely taking that side of the argument "for fun". If in the course of your argument you are misrepresenting facts, then people might believe your (false) statements.

Asking a question isn't dangerous - but making up answers, especially if those answers breed distrust of the scientific method, is dangerous. I don't have a problem with people making arguments in good faith, or even just-for-fun but based on real data. I have a problem with people deliberately lying (e.g. "The power lines don't exist on Lake Pontchartrain").

I have never seen Tom Bishop say something that I thought was an intentional lie (as opposed to a mistake or misinterpretation), but that's all I've ever seen from, um, certain other people I've been especially critical of recently. As a result, I respect Tom Bishop. I have yet to develop respect for some others.

My worry is someone coming here and learning that "NASA is lying - don't believe them" is one step closer to going to a vaccine forum and thinking "Gee - if they lied about the moon landing, maybe they're lying about vaccines too." I'm not saying you are killing babies, I'm saying you're not helping save babies. There's a difference.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: Tumeni on July 11, 2018, 08:03:53 AM
Not dangerous, but grossly misleading.

We have a selection of individuals who claim to be empiricists, who claim to be in a search for the truth, who claim to be doing research.....  but when asked for empirical data, when asked for details of what experimentation they've done, what was involved in their research, what the results of it were, when it was done, etc.  -  they go strangely quiet.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on July 11, 2018, 02:20:14 PM
but when asked for empirical data, when asked for details of what experimentation they've done, what was involved in their research, what the results of it were, when it was done, etc.  -  they go strangely quiet.
You fundamentally misunderstand the Zetetic flavour of empiricism if your go-to response to it is to demand that someone writes up their proceedings for you. The expectation is that, should you wish to join us in this format of pursuit of truth, you will perform your own experimentation for your own development and satisfaction. Ultimately, your mistake is that you walked into a room of people who (to some extent) reject the conventional ways of doing science, and then decided to stand in the middle of the room and exclaim your shock (in a true Paul Joseph Watson style (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72KbeqN7pZ4)) in the fact that no one wants to do conventional science with you.

What's next? Will you visit your local bingo club and complain that no one's interested in a friendly rugby match?

My worry is someone coming here and learning that "NASA is lying - don't believe them" is one step closer to going to a vaccine forum and thinking "Gee - if they lied about the moon landing, maybe they're lying about vaccines too." I'm not saying you are killing babies, I'm saying you're not helping save babies. There's a difference.
But looking at the people here, this does not seem to happen. If anything, I would say that we occasionally get visitors who are already convinced of other conspiracies, and when we don't entertain their proposals, they leave disappointed. Or have I missed something? Do you have reasons to believe that your fears are substantiated in the context of the Flat Earth Society?
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: Tumeni on July 11, 2018, 03:20:41 PM
You fundamentally misunderstand the Zetetic flavour of empiricism if your go-to response to it is to demand that someone writes up their proceedings for you.

I'm not demanding.

You say "Exploring the world that surrounds us and trying to discover the truth" as if that's what you've done, or what you're currently doing.

All I ask is that you tell us what you've done, how it's going, what you've discovered. If it's all detailed somewhere else, just a link or a pointer will do.


The expectation is that, should you wish to join us in this format of pursuit of truth, you will perform your own experimentation for your own development and satisfaction.

The thing is, I don't see the need to. I'm happy with what others have done in this respect, and happy with my own observations thus far. As a 'for instance', mainstream science holds that there are orbital satellites all around us. I'm happy with that. I see nothing from my own experience that causes me to disagree. I can find multiple sources, independent of those who launched the satellites, and those who operate them, to confirm that the orbital satellites are there. Plane Wave Instruments, the Space Goedesy Facility, radio amateurs communicating with the ISS, etc.

If you're not, that's fine, but at least offer some inkling as to why you're not happy with the accumulated works of science in relation to globe earth, and some background on what you've actually done.    

Ultimately, your mistake is that you walked into a room of people who (to some extent) reject the conventional ways of doing science, and then decided to stand in the middle of the room and exclaim your shock in the fact that no one wants to do conventional science with you.

No, I've walked into the room and asked those who reject the conventional way to tell me what they've actually done, when they did it, and where the results were recorded. That's all.

Or do you regard recording what you've done as too "conventional" for you?

If you walk into my room, and ask what's happening with whatever is being discussed, you'll be immediately referred to textbooks, papers, journals, and other peer-reviewed material to show what's going on in whatever field you've asked about. All I'm asking is what you have on what you've done, when, how, etc.

Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: AATW on July 12, 2018, 01:53:18 PM
Interesting. In some ways there is not much harm in it. I actually don't think most of the people on here who are FE proponents actually believe in it really. In fact, I think that might be the big "in joke" on this whole site. I've actually seen someone on here flip to arguing for FE for the fun of it, I suspect most of them are doing that.

I don't think in itself it's dangerous. It has become relatively well known (not on the scale of bronies, but right up there) but mostly people mock it, it's almost become a by-word for being simple minded or stupid.

So I don't think there's any harm in it, but it is a symptom of a society which seems to increasingly not value truth. And this is where the movement is potentially troublesome as they paint themselves as seeking truth when they are doing the reverse, if anything.

I agree with Pete that trying to discover truth is a good thing, but reject the notion that the FES is doing that. If there is any effort to create a coherent flat earth model that works then I don't see much evidence of it.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on July 12, 2018, 03:08:52 PM
I actually don't think most of the people on here who are FE proponents actually believe in it really. In fact, I think that might be the big "in joke" on this whole site. I've actually seen someone on here flip to arguing for FE for the fun of it, I suspect most of them are doing that.
We have a long tradition of accepting devil's advocates, for a number of reasons. The most important, to me, is that we can't (from a moral standpoint, not a technical one) be arbiters of who does and doesn't truly believe in what they say here. It just wouldn't be right. But aside from that, we have a tradition of striving to discuss ideas, not individuals. If someone can present a sensible argument for either side, why should we stop him? This sort of exercise is good for everyone anyway.

In the end of the day, if someone here is arguing for RET but they say something that's completely out of kilter with your model, I'll do my best to correct them. Does it mean I believe in RET? No, but it's the honest thing to do. We are not here to "win" conversations.

Now, there are some exceptions to that. Two things that we absolutely don't tolerate is sockpuppetry and "double agents" - people who claim to argue for the "wrong" side, but who deliberately make terrible arguments to weaken that side.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: JHelzer on July 12, 2018, 09:13:04 PM
In essence, we should ask not if FET is dangerous, but rather if RET is dangerous. An ongoing lie can do so much more damage than the truth could ever hope to accomplish. How many innocents continue to believe sweet fictions like Neil Armstrong hobbling about on the moon after climbing out of a capsule made of tin foil? Surely these sweet lies are the real danger to our society, not any sort of danger surrounding FET itself.
This is interesting because it's the same argument RE uses against FE.  I disagree both ways.
I am proposing that if FE is flat out wrong, and I believe it anyway, it really doesn't harm me.
Likewise if the moon landings 40 years ago are totally fake, but I believe them anyway, it really doesn't harm me.

Rejection of objective facts is all over our political spectrum now, and it's very dangerous. If we're willing to throw away facts and just believe whatever we want, the future is doomed.
I agree with this.  We should all avoid presenting false data as fact.  The best of us are open minded enough to shift our beliefs to correct data when we recognize it, but not everyone can.  I believe that enough of us do.

If the flat earth theory comes along with rejecting standard units of measurement, cartography, moon rotation, navigation, satellites, laws of physics, astronomy, trigonometry, flights etc then I would say yes.
I don't see this happening with FE.  The members of this forum use all these things in daily life and use them in discussions on this site.  Even those who don't believe in satellites orbiting a round earth pull out their phones and follow the navigation prompts as they drive.

The dangers of FE essentially become most prevalent if it loses it's core, loses it's 'way' as it were. If it becomes less about learning and exploring things for yourself, and more about simply anti-establishment. Some fringes are starting to appear this way, but for the most part I believe it's still holding steady to that core ideal.
I agree this is true about anything.  Look for truth in another framework: good. Anti-establishment: bad.

Asking a question isn't dangerous - but making up answers, especially if those answers breed distrust of the scientific method, is dangerous. I don't have a problem with people making arguments in good faith, or even just-for-fun but based on real data. I have a problem with people deliberately lying.
I like this.  This sums it up to me for both sides.  "I must not tell lies" -Harry Potter ootp
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on July 13, 2018, 01:16:08 AM
Is Flat Earth Theory dangerous?
No.

Is tfes.org dangerous?
No.

Is it harmful if a young person becomes convinced that the Earth is flat?
No.

Is it harmful to our community for prominent figures to declare belief in the flat Earth?
No.

What if you don't believe it?
That's most people.

What if you're just messing around.  Is that dangerous?
No.

Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: Catnip on July 14, 2018, 11:57:02 AM
I think it's harmless as heck. The shape of the earth is ***the furthest*** issue from what should actually be addressed, like curing cancer or ending world hunger. I don't care if I'm living on a triangle as long as our species can thrive on it.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: ICanScienceThat on July 14, 2018, 04:12:20 PM
I think it's harmless as heck. The shape of the earth is ***the furthest*** issue from what should actually be addressed, like curing cancer or ending world hunger. I don't care if I'm living on a triangle as long as our species can thrive on it.
I agree with that sentiment. I argue that curing cancer and ending world hunger require rational thought, logical reasoning, and solid facts. If you start preaching that "everyone's conclusions are equally valid," you're down the road away from reality. Major undertakings like curing cancer require the combined political will of an organized group of humanity. Right now, we're seeing a massive undercutting of logic and reason in out political structures around the world. That is dangerous. FE isn't dangerous. Undercutting belief in reality is dangerous.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: JHelzer on July 27, 2018, 07:41:56 PM
Anyway, being a scientist, I find it highly disturbing how silly believes can get and flat-earth has to be one of the top-runners. I don't particularly care if anyone believes in flat earth or not. But I do care when people are stubbornly convinced by nonsense, it is the worst thing you can possibly do. It only leads to misery and disaster, if you pick the wrong thing to be convinced by (luckily, flat-earth is harmless in that regard).
I agree with Sciratio's conclusion, but the views presented are too extreme. Being stubbornly convinced by nonsense is the worst thing you can possibly do?  Nope.  I can think of several things that are worse.  I'd say that presenting extreme values is probably right on par with stubborn nonsense.  Neither are the worst possible.
I do agree that a belief in a divergent earth shape is harmless.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: Dr David Thork on July 28, 2018, 07:02:51 AM
I think it's harmless as heck. The shape of the earth is ***the furthest*** issue from what should actually be addressed, like curing cancer or ending world hunger.

Wouldn't be much of a debate.


I believe we should make an effort to cure cancer and end world hunger. Is there anyone who disagrees and would like to debate the pros of cancer and people starving to death?
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: AATW on July 28, 2018, 08:54:29 AM
I believe we should make an effort to cure cancer and end world hunger. Is there anyone who disagrees and would like to debate the pros of cancer and people starving to death?
Depends who the person is. It's like you've never heard of Piers Morgan.
And the only possible issue is if we as a species get so dumb that we can't research the important things. I don't think that's going to happen.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: Dr David Thork on July 28, 2018, 09:24:20 AM
I believe we should make an effort to cure cancer and end world hunger. Is there anyone who disagrees and would like to debate the pros of cancer and people starving to death?
Depends who the person is. It's like you've never heard of Piers Morgan.
And the only possible issue is if we as a species get so dumb that we can't research the important things. I don't think that's going to happen.

Of course we have heard of Piers Morgan in the UK. And as we did with David Beckham and James Corden, when we get fed up of an over-exposed celebrity we send them to America so we don't have to listen to them any more.

I don't even know where you are going with the original debate. You changed the subject to whether humans will evolve to be more or less intelligent. Have you given up?
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: panicp on July 28, 2018, 11:54:03 AM
1) "I like how the RE perspective is to just look at it from their own closed view of the world"

2) "If FET is true, it is not dangerous....Mainstream science has become a cult...."

3) "You are taught what people believe, not how it was developed, not why it is believed..."

4) "It doesn't tell people to gout out and hurt each other, it doesn't tell people to start risking their lives or doing anything close."

5) "And that's what sums it up, really. The danger is not FET, the danger is cults."

6) "FET tells us to think for ourselves, not to blindly follow, and it is blindly following that has gotten the world into the mess it now is."

Hi Jrowe. I picked out a few of your points which are worth discussion.

1) "I like how the RE perspective is to just look at it from their own closed view of the world"

I think if you thought a little bit harder before posting this somewhat petulant statement, you might appreciate that its hypocrisy. What perspective would you expect any person with a counter opinion to present with? Their own. Just as you look at things through your own perspectives - whatever they might be.

2) "If FET is true, it is not dangerous....Mainstream science has become a cult....".

Yes absolutely. if FET IS true, then it couldn't possibly be dangerous. It would be reality.

3) "You are taught what people believe, not how it was developed, not why it is believed...".

With all due respect, this is palpable nonsense. When scientific princples are taught, they are always related back to the first princples from which they originated. There are numerous examples - Pythagoras, Gallileo, Newton, Keppler as the tip of the iceberg. Yet FE believers, contradict the work of these great minds but offer nothing in return to explain the very obvious contradictions.

The very first lessons in mathematics that (presumably) any of us attended, would have been based around simple goemetry and how it was that something as (we now perceive) simple as a triangle had so many important ramifications in so many disciplines.

Now lets consider as most FE believers do, that all our known mathematics are wrong. (Because this is the only way, that a RE model could be fundamentally discounted. If a FE believer doesn't discount our known mathematics, then there is an insurmountable paradox: no believer in a FE model can also believe in modern mathematics.

This would mean that driving a car, or flying in a plane (which we can demonstably do - there are even FE pilots on here) can no longer be explained by our current mathematical models. If this is the case, then it is demonstrably up to the FE community to propose a new explanation. It's not sufficient to simply call modern science a "cult" or a "conspiracy". If you're right, then simply prove it. I will always listen to alternate theory - it's (ironically for FE) one of the central tenets of science - the offering of a counter theory and a proof by observable calculation. Why, for example, can't a FE (like Mad Mike Hughes in the US), go up to altitude or indeed travel to "underneath" the FE and prove the theory - or indeed conclude they are mistaken? Consider, the physical laws of circular motion, if the flat earth theory is correct, there would be utterly inexplicable problems explaing why someone living in northern Sweden experiences the exact same graviational forces as say, my living in Australia. In a FE theory, I should be being torn apart.... but I'm not. Now a single observation like that proves nothing, but if you apply a particular theory, then it should work for all applications - and our current mathematics, in my opinion, do.

So do you believe the scientists I listed above (and many more) simply got it all wrong? Or were they the start of the conspiracy? Pythagoras, Gallileo and Newton existed well before the US and NASA did - and predicted what is held in the mainstream to be the status quo - so why does FE continue to denigrate NASA (and accuse it of lying with faked pictures from space etc) and worldwide modern science?

Surely FEs would be targetting the very "founding fathers" of mathematics and their mathematical descriptions of the physical world?

Your point "You are taught what people believe, not how it was developed, not why it is believed..." should surely be challenging the ancient architects of modern day science - because if they were wrong, then everything is wrong.(*)

(*it should be noted that scientific theories are sometimes adapted not because they are necessarily wrong, but are not right in all circumstances - classically Newton's laws of motion at sub-light speed which do not work at speeds approaching light speed (as per Einsteins relativity).

4) "And that's what sums it up, really. The danger is not FET, the danger is cults."

Why is SE/modern science a cult, and FE not a cult?

5) "FET tells us to think for ourselves, not to blindly follow, and it is blindly following that has gotten the world into the mess it now is."

As said above, I absolutely agree thinking for ourselves and challenging the status quo is appropriate and (ironically for FE), is the basis for theuniversal approach to modern science.
So please explain why, having proposed a FE theory, has nobody made any tangible attempts to prove it as opposed to simply refuting the SE model? It seems "mad" mike Hughes is the only guy trying.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/rockets/a19587128/self-taught-rocket-scientist-blasts-off/

Any open-minded scientist would listen to opposing theory - and that is why I am here.

Unfortuntaely, FET offers no such tangible proof. Instead, the whole movement relies on using memes and conspiracy theory to spread misinformation.

If FET is correct, it will be proveable - and as yet, no mathematical theory (or para-mathematical theory for that matter) has ever been offered.

Why?
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: JRowe on July 28, 2018, 05:29:38 PM
1) "I like how the RE perspective is to just look at it from their own closed view of the world"

I think if you thought a little bit harder before posting this somewhat petulant statement, you might appreciate that its hypocrisy. What perspective would you expect any person with a counter opinion to present with? Their own. Just as you look at things through your own perspectives - whatever they might be.
Instead of divorcing that sentence from its context, look at the very next line.

Quote
With all due respect, this is palpable nonsense. When scientific princples are taught, they are always related back to the first princples from which they originated.
That is simply not true. How old were you before you even heard the name, say, Cavendish? How many years before that were you told to believe in orbits?
Look how many people know tidbits like E=mc2 or the speed of light as a limit, but couldn't tell you what those letters stand for or why the speed of light is a limit; look how many noobs come in insisting UA's impossible because it'd lead to exceeding the speed of light. Look at how every science textbook and classroom is based on memorizing statements, not deriving them. What did you spend more time studying, the scientific method and how and why it works, or statements you wouldn't know how to derive? One of those is far more important, one of those should underpin everything you've learned.
I still remember when I was younger and bothered with religious debates, and one of the discussions I had was with a young earther, where I tried to use radiometric dating... and I got schooled, because class hadn't bothered with any of the crucial details of how it is we know it works. No mention of calibration curves, tree rings for shorter-term dating, how we know the relative amounts of various elements. We were just told that it's constant. Zero explanation for where that knowledge comes from, we're just expected to believe it.

It's a fundamental problem with the education system, and that's speaking as someone that grew up in the US and UK so I got a taste of both. So much of it is focused around being expected to memorise facts without understanding them.

Quote
Now lets consider as most FE believers do, that all our known mathematics are wrong. (Because this is the only way, that a RE model could be fundamentally discounted. If a FE believer doesn't discount our known mathematics, then there is an insurmountable paradox: no believer in a FE model can also believe in modern mathematics.
Utter rubbish. Instead of whinging that FEers dare disagree with you, try to respond to the actual discussion.
This is anotehr crucial problem. You are raised believing that observations and theory may as well be the same thing, that if we see something and RET has an answer, there is no possible way anything else could also explain it.

Quote
This would mean that driving a car, or flying in a plane (which we can demonstably do - there are even FE pilots on here) can no longer be explained by our current mathematical models. If this is the case, then it is demonstrably up to the FE community to propose a new explanation. It's not sufficient to simply call modern science a "cult" or a "conspiracy". If you're right, then simply prove it. I will always listen to alternate theory - it's (ironically for FE) one of the central tenets of science - the offering of a counter theory and a proof by observable calculation. Why, for example, can't a FE (like Mad Mike Hughes in the US), go up to altitude or indeed travel to "underneath" the FE and prove the theory - or indeed conclude they are mistaken? Consider, the physical laws of circular motion, if the flat earth theory is correct, there would be utterly inexplicable problems explaing why someone living in northern Sweden experiences the exact same graviational forces as say, my living in Australia. In a FE theory, I should be being torn apart.... but I'm not. Now a single observation like that proves nothing, but if you apply a particular theory, then it should work for all applications - and our current mathematics, in my opinion, do.
What the actual fuck are you talking about?

Quote
Your point "You are taught what people believe, not how it was developed, not why it is believed..." should surely be challenging the ancient architects of modern day science - because if they were wrong, then everything is wrong.(*)

(*it should be noted that scientific theories are sometimes adapted not because they are necessarily wrong, but are not right in all circumstances - classically Newton's laws of motion at sub-light speed which do not work at speeds approaching light speed (as per Einsteins relativity).
[/b]
Congrats, you just refuted your whole bs line of reasoning.

Quote

So please explain why, having proposed a FE theory, has nobody made any tangible attempts to prove it as opposed to simply refuting the SE model
A) We do.
B) Performed experiments don't cease existing or stop counting as evidence, if another model accounts for them better then it should be preferred.
C) As you pointed out, there is no consensus, what exactly would be the point of doing an experiment that a lot of us wouldn't expect to see anything odd with? I've been pitching an experiment a while, I just lack the resources to do it (and it wouldn't count for anything given anything I provide that dares be contrary to RET would be rejected out of hand), and it wouldn't mean anything to other FEers.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: inquisitive on July 28, 2018, 06:01:58 PM
The simple use of measured distances to prove a shape seems to be beyond the ability of some.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: panicp on July 29, 2018, 07:24:43 AM
1) "I like how the RE perspective is to just look at it from their own closed view of the world"

I think if you thought a little bit harder before posting this somewhat petulant statement, you might appreciate that its hypocrisy. What perspective would you expect any person with a counter opinion to present with? Their own. Just as you look at things through your own perspectives - whatever they might be.
Instead of divorcing that sentence from its context, look at the very next line.

Quote
With all due respect, this is palpable nonsense. When scientific princples are taught, they are always related back to the first princples from which they originated.
That is simply not true. How old were you before you even heard the name, say, Cavendish? How many years before that were you told to believe in orbits?
Look how many people know tidbits like E=mc2 or the speed of light as a limit, but couldn't tell you what those letters stand for or why the speed of light is a limit; look how many noobs come in insisting UA's impossible because it'd lead to exceeding the speed of light. Look at how every science textbook and classroom is based on memorizing statements, not deriving them. What did you spend more time studying, the scientific method and how and why it works, or statements you wouldn't know how to derive? One of those is far more important, one of those should underpin everything you've learned.
I still remember when I was younger and bothered with religious debates, and one of the discussions I had was with a young earther, where I tried to use radiometric dating... and I got schooled, because class hadn't bothered with any of the crucial details of how it is we know it works. No mention of calibration curves, tree rings for shorter-term dating, how we know the relative amounts of various elements. We were just told that it's constant. Zero explanation for where that knowledge comes from, we're just expected to believe it.

It's a fundamental problem with the education system, and that's speaking as someone that grew up in the US and UK so I got a taste of both. So much of it is focused around being expected to memorise facts without understanding them.

Quote
Now lets consider as most FE believers do, that all our known mathematics are wrong. (Because this is the only way, that a RE model could be fundamentally discounted. If a FE believer doesn't discount our known mathematics, then there is an insurmountable paradox: no believer in a FE model can also believe in modern mathematics.
Utter rubbish. Instead of whinging that FEers dare disagree with you, try to respond to the actual discussion.
This is anotehr crucial problem. You are raised believing that observations and theory may as well be the same thing, that if we see something and RET has an answer, there is no possible way anything else could also explain it.

Quote
This would mean that driving a car, or flying in a plane (which we can demonstably do - there are even FE pilots on here) can no longer be explained by our current mathematical models. If this is the case, then it is demonstrably up to the FE community to propose a new explanation. It's not sufficient to simply call modern science a "cult" or a "conspiracy". If you're right, then simply prove it. I will always listen to alternate theory - it's (ironically for FE) one of the central tenets of science - the offering of a counter theory and a proof by observable calculation. Why, for example, can't a FE (like Mad Mike Hughes in the US), go up to altitude or indeed travel to "underneath" the FE and prove the theory - or indeed conclude they are mistaken? Consider, the physical laws of circular motion, if the flat earth theory is correct, there would be utterly inexplicable problems explaing why someone living in northern Sweden experiences the exact same graviational forces as say, my living in Australia. In a FE theory, I should be being torn apart.... but I'm not. Now a single observation like that proves nothing, but if you apply a particular theory, then it should work for all applications - and our current mathematics, in my opinion, do.
What the actual fuck are you talking about?

Quote
Your point "You are taught what people believe, not how it was developed, not why it is believed..." should surely be challenging the ancient architects of modern day science - because if they were wrong, then everything is wrong.(*)

(*it should be noted that scientific theories are sometimes adapted not because they are necessarily wrong, but are not right in all circumstances - classically Newton's laws of motion at sub-light speed which do not work at speeds approaching light speed (as per Einsteins relativity).
[/b]
Congrats, you just refuted your whole bs line of reasoning.

Quote

So please explain why, having proposed a FE theory, has nobody made any tangible attempts to prove it as opposed to simply refuting the SE model
A) We do.
B) Performed experiments don't cease existing or stop counting as evidence, if another model accounts for them better then it should be preferred.
C) As you pointed out, there is no consensus, what exactly would be the point of doing an experiment that a lot of us wouldn't expect to see anything odd with? I've been pitching an experiment a while, I just lack the resources to do it (and it wouldn't count for anything given anything I provide that dares be contrary to RET would be rejected out of hand), and it wouldn't mean anything to other FEers.

Why so rude? Why so nasty and obnxious? No call for the tone of your reply whatsoever. I presume you read my tags? Disgraceful attitude and reported to mods.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: JRowe on July 29, 2018, 01:22:24 PM
Why so rude? Why so nasty and obnxious? No call for the tone of your reply whatsoever. I presume you read my tags? Disgraceful attitude and reported to mods.
Why precisely should I giev any respect to a sanctimonious, patronising, arrogant, dishonest poster?
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on July 29, 2018, 05:49:40 PM
Why precisely should I giev any respect to a sanctimonious, patronising, arrogant, dishonest poster?
Because the rules require you to do so, so long as you're posting in the upper fora, or at least to refrain from personal attacks. Pretty please and thank you.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: panicp on July 31, 2018, 03:17:42 PM
Why precisely should I giev any respect to a sanctimonious, patronising, arrogant, dishonest poster?
Because the rules require you to do so, so long as you're posting in the upper fora, or at least to refrain from personal attacks. Pretty please and thank you.



I have most certainly not posted anthing deliberately sanctimonious, patronising arrogant and in particular, I find Jrowe calling me dishonest particularly offensive. I accept that I might be wrong about things, but at NO point have I been deliberately dishonest.

And this is exactly why it is so difficult to engage in meaningful discussion here - because after 1 or two posts - that ^ is the supreme judgement and conclusion of someone with whom I was trying to have a serious discussion. Hopefully there will be others who want to actually discuss issues without getting sweary and spitting their dummy.

I appreciate the backup from Mod Pete. Thanks.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: panicp on August 01, 2018, 05:25:01 PM
@JRowe..... Shhhhhhhhhh.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: juner on August 01, 2018, 07:47:20 PM
@JRowe..... Shhhhhhhhhh.

If you have nothing to add to the thread, then don't bother posting. If you need help on how to post in the upper fora, please read the rules. Warned.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: timterroo on August 03, 2018, 02:38:25 AM
I literally just had this conversation with a sociologist today. She said it was dangerous. I respectfully disagreed, but I can understand how someone might see it that way. However.....

It is no more harmful than watching television or participating in social media like Facebook. When someone engages in Facebook chatter the motives for doing so are likely self-centered - in fact, people betray themselves by believing in moment-to-moment interactions made of perceived feelings that are often incorrect. People bet their whole lives on these perceived feelings and disown family members and long time friends over a few words that were exchanged without so much as a verbal or face-to-face interaction. Our senses are dulled by digital dialogue made in closed rooms thousands of miles apart.

What is real?

Is open debate about controversial topics more dangerous than the rabbit whole of social distortion? I don't think so.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: AATW on August 03, 2018, 12:11:49 PM
Is open debate about controversial topics more dangerous than the rabbit whole of social distortion? I don't think so.
Ah, but this isn't a controversial topic...
There's the problem. The way you framed it, no it isn't dangerous. But when a non-controversial topic like this is claimed to be controversial then it can be problematic. One (since discredited) paper about vaccinations having a link to autism + a press frenzy about it led to a lot of parents not vaccinating their children and that has had consequences in terms of disease outbreaks. This particular topic is not going to directly lead to such consequences of course but it's the level of thinking it represents which is potentially dangerous.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: timothyleary on August 03, 2018, 12:44:07 PM
I don't see that it is dangerous at all.

Being someone who lives life according believing in the round earth theory, I don't see any harm in a community of people trying to prove otherwise.

It doesn't really affect anything in my life, or their own, members of their family etc. if they believe the Earth is flat (for the sake of this point, I am not saying that it is or is not flat), just like it doesn't really affect them if I believe the Earth is round.

When this does become a problem is when you get idiots who seem to think it is right to abuse others, either physically or mentally, because their view of something that is relatively trivial, differs from their own.

(I firmly believe that the stuff I have said above should also adhere to religion, country of birth, colour of skin, age, etc.)

As another user has put, there have been "studies" into other topics, like vaccinations, that were completely untrue but pushed nonetheless. Believing in these is dangerous as these can actually have an affect on a person's health, and worse than that the affect is on someone else's life because they are too young to be able to make their own informed choice.



In a nutshell, no, not dangerous. Even if it turns out that I am wrong and things like GPS and mobile phone satellites are faked and actually work through someway on Earth, then it still does not make a difference to my life. They still work, just not in the way I am told they work
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: pj1 on August 03, 2018, 12:52:16 PM
Seems pretty dangerous for Mad Mike Hughes and his steam rocket.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: timterroo on August 03, 2018, 02:08:17 PM
Quote
One (since discredited) paper about vaccinations having a link to autism + a press frenzy about it led to a lot of parents not vaccinating their children and that has had consequences in terms of disease outbreaks.

This is an example of social distortion, which as I said is much more dangerous than debating theory. Scare tactics are used all over media, and is a form of social control.

If you read about a theory and immediately 'drink the cool-aid', that might speak more about an individual having impulse control issues, or a lack of any real foundation.

I am a REer, but as I read more about FET, I have actually learned some things about RE that I never knew. I've considered things about perception and space that I have not considered prior to joining this society.

The best ideas originate by challenging the status quo, or in groups where different ideas are brought to the table. In group-theory, there is a phenomenon called "group think" where a collective decision is made when nobody wants to challenge the leader of the group. Everyone blindly agrees to a policy or decision because they are all afraid to say something different - this is harmful to the group and the individual.

For years and several generations, we have blindly believed in what we were told for no other reason than we were told it. Our global (pardon my biased terminology) community is in dire need of social enlightenment. We are destroying ourselves slowly, but surely, in more ways than one. We will not gain this desperately needed enlightenment if we blindly follow old ideology.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: timterroo on August 03, 2018, 02:09:58 PM
Seems pretty dangerous for Mad Mike Hughes and his steam rocket.

Perhaps he has impulse control issues?! That was pretty insane! I never heard Mike's conclusion from his flight though... only the video commentators closing statement, "The earth is definitely not flat".
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: timterroo on August 03, 2018, 02:28:00 PM
Sometimes the best (if not the only) way to prove something is true, is to try to prove the opposing side. If the proof contradicts the premise, then you assume it is false and therefore the other side is true. Now, this only works for binary situations where there is only two side and one side MUST be true. I think in the case of FE vs RE, there are two definitive sides and only one of them can be true... unless someone wants to propose a square earth?
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 03, 2018, 03:25:59 PM
Seems pretty dangerous for Mad Mike Hughes and his steam rocket.
But he was flinging himself about on rockets long before he got interested in FET. It would be disingenuous to attribute his case to this.

If anything, he identified FE believers' as a potential source of funding and reached out to them after a previous non-FE fundraiser failed.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: pj1 on August 03, 2018, 03:40:28 PM
Seems pretty dangerous for Mad Mike Hughes and his steam rocket.
If anything, he identified FE believers' as a potential source of funding and reached out to them after a previous non-FE fundraiser failed.

Why so cynical?  :)
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: panicp on August 03, 2018, 04:55:48 PM
I don't see that it is dangerous at all.

Being someone who lives life according believing in the round earth theory, I don't see any harm in a community of people trying to prove otherwise.

It doesn't really affect anything in my life, or their own, members of their family etc. if they believe the Earth is flat (for the sake of this point, I am not saying that it is or is not flat), just like it doesn't really affect them if I believe the Earth is round.

When this does become a problem is when you get idiots who seem to think it is right to abuse others, either physically or mentally, because their view of something that is relatively trivial, differs from their own.

(I firmly believe that the stuff I have said above should also adhere to religion, country of birth, colour of skin, age, etc.)

As another user has put, there have been "studies" into other topics, like vaccinations, that were completely untrue but pushed nonetheless. Believing in these is dangerous as these can actually have an affect on a person's health, and worse than that the affect is on someone else's life because they are too young to be able to make their own informed choice.



In a nutshell, no, not dangerous. Even if it turns out that I am wrong and things like GPS and mobile phone satellites are faked and actually work through someway on Earth, then it still does not make a difference to my life. They still work, just not in the way I am told they work

I think my concern about FET being dangerous is cherry picking which mathematics are acceptable and which are not. For example, is it be acceptable (or safe) to dispute the mathematics of the sub-c Newtonian theory of gravitation and circular motion yet accept the mathematics of a sub-c amusement park ride exhibiting the same motion is true? This is surely a paradox: a person who designs a safe amusement park ride surely cannot also believe in FET - or how could he/she actually believe in their own calculations? The mathematics predict the same outcomes!

On a more philosophical level, challenging established scientific theory is healthy, important and inherently safe - as theories can be hypothesied, tested, repeated (or not) and accepted or refuted. The problem with FET is that there is only a hypoetheis. There is no repeatable, achievable experiement to accept or refute. Why? Because like all conspiracy theory, any evidence disputing accepted science is simply rubbished as fabricated, conspitorial and more paradoxically - proof of the conspiracy!

Even a man who was watched ascending in a balloon to 128,000 feet with clear curvature filmed by several cameras is disputed by FET. This was funded by a soft-drink company. Not a govement, not an agency, not a party with a conflict of interest or a confirmation bias - just a record-breaker did it purely for that reason. The many cameras also showed a spherical earth. The Baumgartner also saw the curve. But this would be disputed as "lens aberration" and "lies" respectively. And that's my point in a nutshell.

Thus the danger of FET? Any evidence or repeatable proof offered to contradict FET is simply labelled "conspiracy", "lies", "faulty measurement" etc. or weak alternate and non-provable theory (e.g. observable GPS satellites being "high altitude planes - possible solar powered"), with no counter-evidence to prove the theory.

Hypotheses, like "fairies at the bottom of the garden", without testable and repeatable evidence, that vehemently refute tesable and repeatable evidence, risk underminging human scientific endeavour on many so levels.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 03, 2018, 06:08:29 PM
Even a man who was watched ascending in a balloon to 128,000 feet with clear curvature filmed by several cameras is disputed by FET. This was funded by a soft-drink company. Not a govement, not an agency, not a party with a conflict of interest or a confirmation bias - just a record-breaker did it purely for that reason. The many cameras also showed a spherical earth. The Baumgartner also saw the curve. But this would be disputed as "lens aberration" and "lies" respectively. And that's my point in a nutshell.

And if you were to actually watch those FE videos, they show how some scenes taken from inside the craft show a much flatter horizon when looking out and other scenes show a curved horizon. Whether the usage of fish-eye lenses was deliberate or not, you are misrepresenting the issue. Since you brought this up, and neglected to mention this, that just shows you to be deceptive, only seeking to make your case and "win" your argument.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: panicp on August 03, 2018, 06:55:44 PM
Even a man who was watched ascending in a balloon to 128,000 feet with clear curvature filmed by several cameras is disputed by FET. This was funded by a soft-drink company. Not a govement, not an agency, not a party with a conflict of interest or a confirmation bias - just a record-breaker did it purely for that reason. The many cameras also showed a spherical earth. The Baumgartner also saw the curve. But this would be disputed as "lens aberration" and "lies" respectively. And that's my point in a nutshell.

And if you were to actually watch those FE, they show how some scenes taken from inside the craft show a much flatter horizon when looking out and other scenes show a curved horizon. Whether the usage of fish-eye lenses was deliberate or not, you are misrepresenting the issue. Since you brought this up, and neglected to mention this, that just shows you to be an untrustworthy individual, only seeking to make your case and "win" your argument.


I can confirm I have watched the available footage from the world record jump and seen hundreds of photos. Regardless of the camera or its position, there is always a curve: "much flatter" = still curved. On some images, the curve is more pronounced than others and that would be expected given how much of the foreground vs background is in shot, the lens used and depth of field.

I find it incredible that you label me "untrustworthy" on the basis that I "neglected to mention" this, when in all honesty, I thought the differences in the horizon were quite obviously explained by the above optical phenomena.
I thought the idea of a forum was to debate? The FES forum's home mission statement states: "This is the home of the world-famous Flat Earth Society, a place for free thinkers and the intellectual exchange of ideas."?

I cannot see how your post in any way supports that aim. It's just an attack on someone who doesn't share the same opinion as you do.

Is it not possible to simply discuss the science without personal attacks? Please?
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: timterroo on August 03, 2018, 07:27:52 PM
I believe the curve in that video is MOSTLY due to lens effect. The reason for this belief is as Tom pointed out, the scenes where you can see the horizon from within the cockpit are not curved the same way as it is with the outside cameras. None of this conjecture proves or disproves anything because it is all still perspective and camera angles. I'm sure there is a more empirical way to decipher this...

We know he was 128,000 feet high. There must be a way to calculate the vanishing point at this height and compare the approximate distance that you can see in that video and determine if they match. If the vanishing point is further than the viewable distance in that video, that would be evidence that the earth is round. The challenge will be determining how far you can see based on that video.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: JHelzer on August 03, 2018, 08:32:04 PM
Seems pretty dangerous for Mad Mike Hughes and his steam rocket.
:)
Both RET and FET have produced people strapping themselves into rockets.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: panicp on August 05, 2018, 11:05:13 AM
Seems pretty dangerous for Mad Mike Hughes and his steam rocket.
:)
Both RET and FET have produced people strapping themselves into rockets.

Indeed. Space travel still remains very dangerous. The difference between "Mad Mike Hughes" and professional astronauts being the latter have enormous teams of very clever scientists & engineers paying attention to every last possible detail to mitigate risk. I believe "Mad Mike Hughes" just jumped on the FE bandwagon purely as a way to raise money. I think he duped the movement.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on August 22, 2018, 02:57:26 PM
I wouldn't say the ideology itself is dangerous. There are people who believe Islam is a dangerous belief due to the actions of terrorist. There are racial hate groups in America that base there beliefs in their reading of the Christian Bible.  I don't think that makes the ideas dangerous.

The danger from FET comes from individuals associated with it. How long before someone (from 'the other forum') shows up at the Johnson Space Center with a rifle demanding the truth and the release of flat earthers held in capitivity. Just like the pizza-gate conspiracy freak, when no hidden truth is found, the incident will be labelled by conspiracy theorists as a 'false flag' operation to discredit FET.

It could be even darker. Imagine a group of FET extremists (who genuinely think that their fellow believers have been abducted by NASA) storming the JPL in California alla Cliven Bundy style.


If I have a concern about the ideology, it is that it makes it ok to disregard physical facts in place of whatever a person chooses to believe. This is a serious problem in America where people now believe whatever they want and call anything that challenges their belief fake news or alternative facts. People believe whatever they want even if it's advertising BS, Russian disinformation or political propaganda.

They disregard reality and call it 'free-thinking'.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: Bad Puppy on August 23, 2018, 01:08:58 AM
I don't think flat earth belief is dangerous....unless flat earthers blew up the Challenger.  Anyone can believe what they want, and whether they hurt people in the process will have its own consequences.

Of course, believing in something and denying evidence to the contrary probably isn't very healthy.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: LiqwdE on August 29, 2018, 06:22:14 PM
Flat earth itself is not dangerous.

There is nothing wrong with questions, healthy skepticism, or furthering research.

But, you have to be careful. If you fall to far down the rabbit hole then the line between healthy and unhealthy starts to blur.

You dont want to become a closed mind zealot or a conspiracy theorists who wont leave the basemen.

As long as your willing to look at both sides with an open mind, question everything you want.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: Parallax on September 14, 2018, 08:39:08 PM
In no way is believing the earth is flat dangerous. Just like it's not dangerous to believe the earth being round is dangerous. At the end of the day, humans are free to believe what they want, you can educate people to believe what is true, but it comes down to them. If they do their own research and come to their own conclusions then that doesn't mean they are dangerous. They aren't trolls. They aren't nuts. They are just going along with what they believe in. There isn't anything dangerous about that.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: timterroo on September 14, 2018, 09:58:52 PM
The danger comes into play when you stop believing in humanity. It gets dangerous when you lose sense of feeling, and become numb. Complacent. Apathetic. When you put yourself above others. When the cause becomes greater than humanity.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 15, 2018, 12:47:23 PM
As mentioned before in other posts, belief in the flat earth is not dangerous.

It is the process of arriving in that belief that is quite dangerous.  The flat earth brand of radicalized Zetetic thinking is about personal interpretations of personal observations.  It rationalizes anything you want to believe with no regard for testable reality.  Normally, this would only be a threat to the willfully ignorant.  (eg: I've smoked cigarettes for 20 years and there's nothing wrong with them.  The campaign against smoking is a leftist, liberal attack on hardworking tobacco farmers.) As a Libertarian, I've always believed a person should be allowed to willfully choose ignorance. In the Amish faith, education beyond 7th or 8th grade is considered going against God's plan. More power to them...

However, when this ideology goes beyond the world and is applied to people, personal interpretations of personal observations become justification for racism, religious prejudice, bigotry and hate.  It disregards actual quantifiable evidence just as flat earth people disregard evidence of a round earth.

When this ideology is applied to history, personal interpretations of personal observations lead to revisionism and propaganda.  A person can arbitrarily decide that the Crusades were real and the Holocaust was not.  An American president can deny thousands of fatalities in the Puerto Rican hurricane.

.. and when someone is called out for their beliefs, all you have to do is answer with insults.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: stack on September 15, 2018, 05:54:34 PM
I wouldn’t say dangerous, just uncomfortable.

I would feel distinctly uneasy if upon approach into SFO, the Captain came on and said, “We’ll be touching down in twenty minutes. First Officer Frank and I are staunch flat earth believers and don’t rely on any of our instrumentation that training suggests takes into account a spherical planet. We do hope you enjoy your destination and please do fly with us again."
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 16, 2018, 06:14:27 AM
I would feel fine with such a flight, since all training, instruments, and vehicles were built under the assumption that they operated on a Flat Earth.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: inquisitive on September 16, 2018, 07:55:16 AM
I would feel fine with such a flight, since all training, instruments, and vehicles were built under the assumption that they operated on a Flat Earth.
What map would they be based on?
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: timterroo on September 16, 2018, 02:38:59 PM
I would feel fine with such a flight, since all training, instruments, and vehicles were built under the assumption that they operated on a Flat Earth.

The assumption that the ground underneath them is relatively flat, not the entire earth. Planes do not have to take into account the curve of the earth because gravity makes their relative position always perpendicular with the ground, so as far as the plane is concerned, it is flat. Navigation systems on the other hand would have to be designed around coordinates. To get from point a to point b you need to account for the direction vector that points you in the direction of b. With such a large earth even the direction you are heading can appear to be based on flat ground.
Title: Re: Is FET Dangerous?
Post by: stack on September 16, 2018, 11:15:15 PM
I would feel fine with such a flight, since all training, instruments, and vehicles were built under the assumption that they operated on a Flat Earth.

You might want to let the FAA know this. Chapter 16 on Navigation seems to strongly suggest otherwise.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/media/pilot_handbook.pdf