The Flat Earth Society
Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: xasop on May 30, 2021, 08:32:35 PM
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There have been renewed calls for a referendum on Irish unity following Britain's recent self-immolation. Until recently, broaching the subject at all would have been utterly futile, but the introduction of the Irish Sea border is starting to change that, as Euronews reports.
While the appetite for unification may not yet be hungry enough to push for constitutional change, there is a growing urgency at least in increasing cross-border cooperation, given the two countries' shared geography and history.
A working group has produced a report on the matter with some recommendations, according to the Irish Sun.
The final report by the Working Group on Unification Referendums on the Island of Ireland states: “It would be highly unwise for referendums to be called without a clear plan for the processes of decision-making that would follow.
“Such a plan would need to be agreed by the governments, working closely with the full range of actors in Northern Ireland, across the island of Ireland, and in the UK.”
So there is some work to be done, but headway is being made, which is nice to see. Given the obstacles, we probably won't see a referendum take place this year, but it seems within the realm of possibility to happen within the next couple of years.
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No one gives a fuck.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/04/22/brits-increasingly-dont-care-whether-northern-irel
The Irish can pay for them if they want.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/post-brexit-britain-may-not-want-to-pay-for-northern-ireland-1.3723855
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No one gives a fuck.
Thank you for illustrating why there is increasing support for a united Ireland.
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Thank you for illustrating why there is increasing support for a united Ireland.
What has it got to do with you?
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No one gives a fuck.
Thank you for illustrating why there is increasing support for a united Ireland.
Concurred.
Being a Northern Ireland resident, I'd vote for unification with anywhere that would have us, but only if its somewhere that Thork isn't; eg Ireland, Iceland, USA, North Korea.
And if we do get a referendum, for f*ck's sake ask us a proper question that has 2 answers. Unlike Brexit, where the choice was;
1. Stay in the EU.
2. Do something else, but we don't know what those choices are yet.
(incidentally, I voted 2.).
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(incidentally, I voted 2.).
Do you think it might be time for a "lessons learned" session before a hypothetical reunification vote, or do you intend to just keep on keeping on?
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What has it got to do with you?
A united Ireland could have great benefits for the EU. For one thing, it would open up the possibility of Ireland leaving the CTA in the future and joining Schengen instead.
Besides, not that it's any of your business, I found out last year that I qualify for Irish citizenship through having a parent born in Northern Ireland. It seems I may qualify for UK citizenship that way too, but the UK has shown great determination in making its citizenship as useless as possible over the past few years. I've just been waiting out the pandemic so I can arrange the documentation I need for an Irish passport.
So, as an Irish citizen and an EU resident, I have plenty of reason to want the British kicked out from where they don't belong.
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(incidentally, I voted 2.).
Do you think it might be time for a "lessons learned" session before a hypothetical reunification vote, or do you intend to just keep on keeping on?
In retrospect I don't always make smart decisions, but I will defend to the death my right to keep on making stupid choices.
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I support the Irish and Northern Irish right to self-determination on this point, as I do the Scottish people on the point of their independence. The only way to know if either is good or not is to do it, I just hope that in both cases they do it better than our circus of a government has.
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In retrospect I don't always make smart decisions, but I will defend to the death my right to keep on making stupid choices.
And I would defend your right to carry on making stupid choices. Not with my life. But maybe with a strongly worded Facebook post or a cynical Tweet instead.
I support the Irish and Northern Irish right to self-determination on this point, as I do the Scottish people on the point of their independence.
No. The Scottish is different. They had a vote only 6 years ago. Supposedly once in a generation. You can't keep having referendums until you get the result you want. 25 years is a generation. In Parliament, set the date of the next referendum to be 18 September 2039 and we can forget about it until then.
A united Ireland could have great benefits for the EU. For one thing, it would open up the possibility of Ireland leaving the CTA in the future and joining Schengen instead.
How does poor border control benefit the EU?
Besides, not that it's any of your business, I found out last year that I qualify for Irish citizenship through having a parent born in Northern Ireland.
Ahhh, tracing your roots. A popular past time amongst the culturally bereft descendants of colonialists.
It seems I may qualify for UK citizenship that way too, but the UK has shown great determination in making its citizenship as useless as possible over the past few years.
It is every bit as good as an Australian passport and significantly more utilitarian than a US passport.
https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php
Pray tell me, what is it you hope to do with an Irish passport, that could not be achieved with a British passport?
I have plenty of reason to want the British kicked out from where they don't belong.
The Northern Irish are British, you dumb ass. ::)
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No. The Scottish is different. They had a vote only 6 years ago. Supposedly once in a generation. You can't keep having referendums until you get the result you want. 25 years is a generation. In Parliament, set the date of the next referendum to be 18 September 2039 and we can forget about it until then.
At the risk of veering further off topic, that was before your people dragged them through the most pointless shake-up in Britain since 1066 and put a border between the Scots in Scotland and their Ulster Scots brethren. You have changed the situation, and they are entitled to voice their opinion on the new status quo.
A united Ireland could have great benefits for the EU. For one thing, it would open up the possibility of Ireland leaving the CTA in the future and joining Schengen instead.
How does poor border control benefit the EU?
Nice loaded question.
Besides, not that it's any of your business, I found out last year that I qualify for Irish citizenship through having a parent born in Northern Ireland.
Ahhh, tracing your roots. A popular past time amongst the culturally bereft descendants of colonialists.
I don't quite know how you got that from what I said, but whatever floats your boat.
It seems I may qualify for UK citizenship that way too, but the UK has shown great determination in making its citizenship as useless as possible over the past few years.
It is every bit as good as an Australian passport and significantly more utilitarian than a US passport.
https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php
And yet, significantly less utilitarian than it was 2 years ago.
Pray tell me, what is it you hope to do with an Irish passport, that could not be achieved with a British passport?
You... do know where I live, right? You know I am a resident of the EU, but not an EU citizen? Do you understand that that means I need to maintain a valid visa in order to not get deported and have limited access to public services? Do I really need to explain how EU citizenship would benefit me?
I have plenty of reason to want the British kicked out from where they don't belong.
The Northern Irish are British, you dumb ass. ::)
Some of them identify that way, yes, just the same as some residents of the UK identify as Indian and hold Indian nationality. Are you saying you would support Indian rule in Britain?
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At the risk of veering further off topic, that was before your people dragged them through the most pointless shake-up in Britain since 1066 and put a border between the Scots in Scotland and their Ulster Scots brethren. You have changed the situation, and they are entitled to voice their opinion on the new status quo.
There is no them and us. It is just us. we all had a vote on Brexit. We don't just shatter the nation to bits every time parts of it vote another way. Democracy means we agree to the majority vote and we live with it. Not pick up our ball and go home. Should the Shetland islands be independent because they voted Liberal Democrats last time around? Play that game and you end up a land of thousand villages ... each one more juicy than the last for any marauding Vikings. We have strength in unity. By themselves, Scotland would be picked apart by large trading blocks.
You... do know where I live, right? You know I am a resident of the EU, but not an EU citizen? Do you understand that that means I need to maintain a valid visa in order to not get deported and have limited access to public services? Do I really need to explain how EU citizenship would benefit me?
Why should we give a fuck what benefits you? You don't get a vote. And you aren't supposed to stay in Europe. You have a VISA because you are supposed to go home. That's the deal. You come on a temporary basis for education or work and once knowledge and skills have been exchanged ... you fuck off home. Why should you get access to public services? You've only been here 5 minutes. You haven't paid for them. Europe doesn't owe you a living. What a vile sense of entitlement. This is precisely why the UK voted out. We aren't there to provide welfare for any creature that washes up on our shores.
Some of them identify that way, yes, just the same as some residents of the UK identify as Indian and hold Indian nationality. Are you saying you would support Indian rule in Britain?
No no no. You don't get to self-identify your way out of your situation. We have British residents who may have an Indian heritage. But they are here because the state has identified them as British. This stupid notion you get to identify yourself is laughable. From the same nutcases that bring you preferred pronouns. If I identify as a dog, does that mean I can go about fucking other dogs. Would it be legal to fuck your dog in the park right in front of you? I mean, I'm just a dog ... that's how I identify. What if I identify as a little girl? Am I not entitled to a state education with all the other little girls, including gym class? What if I identify as your brother? Will I get a share of your inheritance when our parents die? The Northern Irish are British ... and that's how they are legally identified ... end of story.
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In retrospect I don't always make smart decisions, but I will defend to the death my right to keep on making stupid choices.
Ah, shit, I absolutely did not mean to suggest that you shouldn't make your choices. Just that perhaps past mistakes might help with future decisions.
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We have strength in unity.
Well, we did.
By themselves, Scotland would be picked apart by large trading blocks.
This is probably about as much Scotland discussion as is warranted in a thread about Ireland.
Why should we give a fuck what benefits you?
Well, for starters, you asked me...
And you aren't supposed to stay in Europe. You have a VISA because you are supposed to go home. That's the deal. You come on a temporary basis for education or work and once knowledge and skills have been exchanged ... you fuck off home.
If that's the deal, why is there a naturalisation process?
Why should you get access to public services? You've only been here 5 minutes. You haven't paid for them. Europe doesn't owe you a living. What a vile sense of entitlement.
I never said anything about whether I should get access to public services. I accepted the fact that I wouldn't be treated as a citizen when I moved here. But the answer to your question is, in part, that an Irish passport would allow me to access public services in the EU sooner than waiting until I can naturalise. Don't complain about the question you asked just because you don't like the answer.
This is precisely why the UK voted out. We aren't there to provide welfare for any creature that washes up on our shores.
I am quite happy to accept none of your tax money, don't you worry about that.
The Northern Irish are British ... and that's how they are legally identified ... end of story.
They are also legally identified, by the Irish government, as Irish. Perhaps there is a sequel?
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They are also legally identified, by the Irish government, as Irish. Perhaps there is a sequel?
Oh, well then we legally identify the USA as a colony. We never gave them permission to leave. Please send taxes, America. ::)
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Oh, well then we legally identify the USA as a colony. We never gave them permission to leave. Please send taxes, America. ::)
As you are no doubt aware, recognising a person as a national of your country is not at all the same thing as claiming jurisdiction over them, although some countries blur the lines somewhat. I'm assuming this means you have no sound arguments to make.
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The USA is no longer a colony because might is right. Hong Kong no longer belongs to the UK because might is right. Northern Ireland does still belong to the UK as does the Falklands. If Argentina had been stronger ... that would not be the case. We'll wait until the Republic of Ireland is capable of wrestling territories from us before we hand over Northern Ireland, thanks very much.
In the mean time, your support of sedition is not welcome. That is how we had The Troubles in the first place. Mind your own business.
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It’s pretty peak Thork to tell people they should accept the results of a democratic process since that is the opposite of what he wanted during Brexit.
“The legally elected government of Britain made a decision I didn’t like and they sToLe My SoVeReIgNtY!! Baaaaaaw!”
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We'll wait until the Republic of Ireland is capable of wrestling territories from us before we hand over Northern Ireland, thanks very much.
Do you know what you're saying? Because I don't think you know what you're saying.
In the mean time, your support of sedition is not welcome.
I wasn't aware referenda qualified as sedition.
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I wasn't aware referenda qualified as sedition.
If you have a referendum without permission ... that's a crime.
https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2019/10/04/inenglish/1570178504_315132.html
Westminster hasn't given permission. You are advocating sedition.
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Westminster hasn't given permission. You are advocating sedition.
Did I, at any point, say "the Northern Irish should set up a referendum without following the legal process in the UK for one"?
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How about Queensland leaves Australia? You know, if we want to see other people's nations chopped to bits. And the western territories, not really part of the rest of Aus. Tasmania is a separate island. Scope for a referendum there too.
In fact, plenty of scope for a new nation here ...
(https://external-preview.redd.it/S2Xr6ZNGcMTWlALAnt31Y_rOEDUYo0qqPUOkk4RtD_0.png?auto=webp&s=6d0f35b6e80d8b5e984742b65de3296e7305704d)
Give back the land you stole. Let them govern themselves.
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How about Queensland leaves Australia?
Good riddance.
You know, if we want to see other people's nations chopped to bits.
You mean like the time you chopped Ireland in half?
Give back the land you stole. Let them govern themselves.
I didn't steal anything, I would be quite happy for them to govern themselves, and Australia isn't the topic of this thread.
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You mean like the time you chopped Ireland in half?
That isn't what happened at all.
The Union of Great Britain and Ireland happened a long time ago and everyone was happy with it. Well almost everyone. Everyone who matters. Henry VIII was the first king of Ireland and he did a good job. Probably.
Anyway, in 1918 the Irish vote in their droves for Sinn Fein.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/Irish_UK_election_1918.png/484px-Irish_UK_election_1918.png)
Being the polite and generally lovely people that we are in the UK, by 1921 we had let the rest of Ireland be an independent country. That's what they wanted. They got it.
But look how Northern Ireland voted. For unionist parties. So we said, Ok, you want to stay, you can stay. We gave absolutely everybody what they wanted. But the greedy nasty Irish wanted more. They wanted to rule over the northern Irish too, despite their not wanting to be Irish. And the Irish resorted to terrorism and the USA decided to fund that terrorism because Americans are fundamentally wicked.
So we never chopped Ireland in half. We left the half that wanted to leave leave, and let the half that wanted to stay stay. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Do you have a better suggestion as to what the British should have done?
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So we never chopped Ireland in half. We left the half that wanted to leave leave, and let the half that wanted to stay stay.
That's weird. I could have sworn you said something just a bit earlier to the effect of
We don't just shatter the nation to bits every time parts of it vote another way. Democracy means we agree to the majority vote and we live with it.
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So we never chopped Ireland in half. We left the half that wanted to leave leave, and let the half that wanted to stay stay.
That's weird. I could have sworn you said something just a bit earlier to the effect of
We don't just shatter the nation to bits every time parts of it vote another way. Democracy means we agree to the majority vote and we live with it.
That's not like voting to leave the union. That was voting on a trade deal with the EU. If people want to leave, they can leave. But they can't vote over and over on it until the result changes. Have a vote, respect the vote. But having political differences of opinion is not grounds for leaving every single time it happens. That way madness lies.
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That's not like voting to leave the union. That was voting on a trade deal with the EU.
No, it was voting on EU membership. Do you actually understand what Brexit is yet?
If people want to leave, they can leave.
I assume you mean to say they can leave after they start a war of independence and you commit a few crimes against humanity to spite them for it.
But they can't vote over and over on it until the result changes. Have a vote, respect the vote. But having political differences of opinion is not grounds for leaving every single time it happens. That way madness lies.
Losing EU membership was one of the primary arguments against Scottish independence in the last referendum. It is not a "political difference of opinion", it is a radical change to the context of the question that was posed.
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That's not like voting to leave the union. That was voting on a trade deal with the EU.
No, it was voting on EU membership. Do you actually understand what Brexit is yet?
Yes, it is the worst trade deal in modern history. You hand over everything including your sovereignty, for the ability to trade with other nations who have been equally emasculated.
If people want to leave, they can leave.
I assume you mean to say they can leave after they start a war of independence and you commit a few crimes against humanity to spite them for it.
Honestly, we don't give a fuck about Northern Ireland. They chose to stay. We've been paying for them ever since. They contribute nothing.
But they can't vote over and over on it until the result changes. Have a vote, respect the vote. But having political differences of opinion is not grounds for leaving every single time it happens. That way madness lies.
Losing EU membership was one of the primary arguments against Scottish independence in the last referendum. It is not a "political difference of opinion", it is a radical change to the context of the question that was posed.
No, Brexit is just the cancellation of a trade deal. A bad trade deal. That is not grounds for sedition.
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Honestly, we don't give a fuck about Northern Ireland. They chose to stay. We've been paying for them ever since. They contribute nothing.
Yes, you keep very loudly proclaiming how hard you don't give a fuck.
No, Brexit is just the cancellation of a trade deal. A bad trade deal. That is not grounds for sedition.
Please stop calling the EU a "trade deal". That is not even remotely close to what it is, and I suspect you know that. You are only making yourself look ridiculous.
Tell me, what is the difference between parts of Ireland disagreeing on whether to remain part of the UK, and parts of the UK disagreeing on whether to remain part of the EU?
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Boris Johnson continues to be all flash, no photo.
But pushed further by reporters about the French president's alleged remarks, Mr Johnson said he and the rest of the government "make the point continuously that we are all part of one great indivisible United Kingdom".
Considering his government is the one who has divided the United Kingdom, this lip service from Boris is frankly more offensive than anything Macron said.
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Stop picking the wrong side. The French have demonstrated how absurd the EUs position is and how unreasonable their demands. Boris asked
"Do you think it would be reasonable to ask that sausages made in Toulouse could not be sold in Paris?" to which Macron replied "Its not the same thing. Northern Ireland is not part of the UK."
Of course, it is part of the UK. Failure to understand such basics is why it is impossible to have a reasonable deal with these idiots.
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Stop picking the wrong side. The French have demonstrated how absurd the EUs position is and how unreasonable their demands. Boris asked
"Do you think it would be reasonable to ask that sausages made in Toulouse could not be sold in Paris?" to which Macron replied "Its not the same thing. Northern Ireland is not part of the UK."
Of course, it is part of the UK. Failure to understand such basics is why it is impossible to have a reasonable deal with these idiots.
Macron is half right. It's not the same thing, Toulouse & Paris are cities. So that was a pretty stupid thing for Boris to say. But what is Northern Ireland? Reading a bit about it, it's kind of confusing. In some instances it's referred to as a region of the UK, others a province and in others, a country. Albeit, all a part of the UK...I think.
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Ok, should Corsica be banned from selling sausages to Paris? That's the same thing. It is every bit as stupid and if Macron thinks the UK will just spilt up because he won't agree a trade deal he's in for a shock. It was unbelievably clumsy of him ... if not outright ignorant.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1449330/emmanuel-macron-brexit-news-latest-g7-summit-northern-ireland-protocol
Also ... question ... the G7.
1. Boris Johnson
2. Macron
3. Merkel
4. Trudeau
5. Biden
6. Mario Draghi
7. Suga Yoshihide
What is Ursula Von Der Leyen doing there? The EU is not part of the G7. Fuck off home you meddling cunt. >o<
Either the EU is part of the G7 in which case send Macron, Merkel and Draghi home, or the EU is not part of the G7 and Von Der Leyen is not welcome. The French, Germans and Italians should not have their handler there putting pressure on issues using the leverage of nations who are NOT part of the G7. The EU is full of complete wankers.
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Ok, should Corsica be banned from selling sausages to Paris? That's the same thing. It is every bit as stupid and if Macron thinks the UK will just spilt up because he won't agree a trade deal he's in for a shock. It was unbelievably clumsy of him ... if not outright ignorant.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1449330/emmanuel-macron-brexit-news-latest-g7-summit-northern-ireland-protocol
Also ... question ... the G7.
1. Boris Johnson
2. Macron
3. Merkel
4. Trudeau
5. Biden
6. Mario Draghi
7. Suga Yoshihide
What is Ursula Von Der Leyen doing there? The EU is not part of the G7. Fuck off home you meddling cunt. >o<
Either the EU is part of the G7 in which case send Macron, Merkel and Draghi home, or the EU is not part of the G7 and Von Der Leyen is not welcome. The French, Germans and Italians should not have their handler there putting pressure on issues using the leverage of nations who are NOT part of the G7. The EU is full of complete wankers.
I'd say clumsy for both Boris and Macron. They both sound pretty daft.
Perhaps they should just change the moniker to G8.
It's all pretty murky. I mean Canada is a country, represented by Trudeau, but it is still a part of the British Commonwealth, whatever that means. Since a big part of the G7 is about trade, it makes sense that Canada is there and not just represented by Boris as they as a trade entity are very important. Same goes for the EU - Very important to all things trade across Europe and abroad. So yeah, the EU should have representation just as Canada does.
From an American perspective the EU has just as much importance as the UK does. I say welcome the EU into the forum.
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Well ... controversial but I have no idea what Trudeau is doing there either. Surely China get a seat at the table before a pisspot province in the Arctic circle? You want to tackle climate change ... why bother with Canada? Surely you bring in China ... oh, and India for that matter. On that note, Draghi should probably pack up his shit and go home too.
And no, the EU should not have representation ... or if it does, you don't give Germany, France and Italy representation as they are already being represented by the EU. The French shouldn't have 2 seats at the same table for example. EU or France ... not both.
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Stop picking the wrong side.
What happened to not being interested in this thread? I'm not going to let you waste any more of my time until you answer my previous question, otherwise you're just going to vanish again next time the discussion gets too uncomfortable for you.
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British trade and the G7 I am interested in. Northern Ireland ... don't care. You changed the subject. You made the thread interesting again.
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British trade and the G7 I am interested in. Northern Ireland ... don't care. You changed the subject. You made the thread interesting again.
You're the one who is veering off topic, which I would like you to stop doing. I was talking about Boris's comments on Northern Ireland specifically. You can read the thread title if that confuses you.
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The Tánaiste has an interesting proposal.
“Our vision should be different. It should be one that has the best chance of carrying the greatest number of people with us, North and South.
“It should appeal in particular to that middle ground I spoke about earlier, to gain the support of people who identify as both British and Irish.
“So, unification must not be the annexation of Northern Ireland.
“It means something more, a new state designed together, a new constitution and one that reflects the diversity of a bi-national or multi-national state in which almost a million people are British.
“Like the New South Africa, a rainbow nation, not just orange and green.”
I have some reservations — the comparison to South Africa seems ill thought out, and the orange in "orange and green" represents the British in Ireland, so that is already a symbol of this kind of unity — but I can get behind the point he's trying to make. Hopefully it's not just hot air like Boris's speeches.
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Mary Lou McDonald, president of Sinn Féin, spoke on this topic recently.
Outlining her party’s political hopes for the future, the Sinn Féin president said that the party wants “an Ireland built on the principles of equality, fairness and justice. An Ireland, free from division, inequality and injustice. An Ireland in which ordinary workers and families have decent housing, good healthcare and a fair economy that works for them”.
She added: “I firmly believe that within this decade the people will have the opportunity to freely choose new constitutional and political arrangements on this island, as underpinned by the provisions of the Good Friday Agreement. We will achieve the referendum on unity, and we can win it.
“This is an exciting time to be an Irish Republican. But opportunity only becomes reality if it is seized. We all have a part to play in getting there. We need to continue to build the party and bring more and more young people into our ranks. We need to talk and listen and learn,” she said.
Sinn Féin recently became the largest party in Stormont (https://www.politico.eu/article/sinn-fein-becomes-largest-party-in-northern-ireland-assembly-brexit/), now that the DUP is disintegrating.
The times, they are a-changin'.
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The Irish Echo makes a solid case for scheduling a referendum right away. To quote their concluding statement:
The denial of a democratic vote of the people is the real threat to the GFA, not the posturing of illegal, criminal loyalist gangs which prey on their own communities. A date for a referendum needs to be set now, and a timetable established for adequate preparation and public discussion to take place beforehand.
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What is your obsession with breaking up the United Kingdom? You want Northern Ireland to leave. You want Scotland to leave. I presume you'd like Wales to leave. Why are you so threatened by us?
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What is your obsession with breaking up the United Kingdom? You want Northern Ireland to leave.
I want Northern Ireland to leave because, as someone with Irish heritage myself, I care about the welfare and economic development of Ireland. The British occupation in the north is not presently working in that interest.
You want Scotland to leave.
I have said no such thing.
I presume you'd like Wales to leave.
I cannot be held accountable to your presumptions.
Why are you so threatened by us?
I could equally well ask you the same thing. Always remember, you chose to leave the EU, we didn't push you out.
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I want Northern Ireland to leave because, as someone with Irish heritage myself, I care about the welfare and economic development of Ireland.
The Northern Irish aren't Irish. They are British. They were asked if they wanted to be Irish and they voted to remain British anyway.
Always remember, you chose to leave the EU, we didn't push you out.
And again, we voted to leave the EU.
Why do you hate democracy so much?
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The Northern Irish aren't Irish. They are British. They were asked if they wanted to be Irish and they voted to remain British anyway.
You know perfectly well that that is an oversimplification based on a half-century-old referendum that most of the Irish in Northern Ireland boycotted because it pre-dated the Good Friday Agreement. Why do you object to asking them again in light of the events of the past five decades?
Always remember, you chose to leave the EU, we didn't push you out.
And again, we voted to leave the EU.
Yes, that's what I said. So why are you so threatened by us?
Why do you hate democracy so much?
Are you really asking me that in a thread I created to advocate for a referendum?
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Let's compare and contrast how the UK is treating Northern Ireland with how the EU treats the Republic.
Northern Irish farmers can no longer take their cattle to Britain for sale, because they can't bring them back if they don't find buyers.
The union’s deputy president David Brown gave evidence to the Stormont finance committee yesterday on the headaches caused by new rules which hamper the movement of goods (in this case animals) from Great Britain to Northern Ireland.
He said for example that when it comes to pedigree cattle, many Ulster breeders traditionally travel to big Welsh, Scottish or English shows to exhibit livestock.
But the new rules mean “any animals coming from Great Britain to Northern Ireland would have to have a six month residence period”.
Mr Brown (a cattle farmer from Fermanagh) explained exactly what this means on the ground.
At Stirling in Scotland in 2018, there were 109 bulls at the spring sale from 43 exhibitors.
In 2019, the number was 120, from 37 exhibitors.
In 2020 the sale was cancelled due to Covid.
But in 2021 the figure was four bulls, from three exhibitors.
Meanwhile, in Strasbourg...
The European Parliament approved over €1 billion in subsidies for Ireland to help manage the economic impact of Brexit on Wednesday.
Ireland is by far the biggest beneficiary of the so-called Brexit Adjustment Reserve, a pot of €5.34 billion set aside by the EU for the countries hardest hit by the disruption caused by the departure of the United Kingdom.
Fine Gael MEP for Midlands North West Colm Markey described the funds as “hugely welcome” and demonstrating “a high degree of EU solidarity with Ireland”.
The fund was approved with an overwhelming vote of 652 votes in favour versus 32 against.
When will the DUP realise they're better off with Brussels than with Westminster?
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https://twitter.com/merrionstreet/status/1469283720389668869
I have nothing to add. One of the most sober and level-headed takes on this issue I've seen.
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Wasn’t exactly sure where to put this, but a big day for Irish culture:
https://www.irishcentral.com/culture/irish-language-european-union
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Wasn’t exactly sure where to put this, but a big day for Irish culture:
https://www.irishcentral.com/culture/irish-language-european-union
Indeed. I mentioned this in another thread (https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=18262.msg254164#msg254164) as well. I'm glad to see the language revival be making such strides, although there is obviously still a long way to go.
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Wasn’t exactly sure where to put this, but a big day for Irish culture:
https://www.irishcentral.com/culture/irish-language-european-union
Indeed. I mentioned this in another thread (https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=18262.msg254164#msg254164) as well. I'm glad to see the language revival be making such strides, although there is obviously still a long way to go.
Canada is starting along the path of reviving some first nation’s languages. I hope it goes well, but we did so much to eradicate native speakers that it is a steep hill to climb.
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Canada is starting along the path of reviving some first nation’s languages. I hope it goes well, but we did so much to eradicate native speakers that it is a steep hill to climb.
Yeah, that's an especially awkward case because modern political boundaries don't even approximate those of the first nations, so the cultures associated with those languages are also long dead. At least Irish national identity is still intact, even though they've lost a sixth of their land to a foreign aggressor.
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Canada is starting along the path of reviving some first nation’s languages. I hope it goes well, but we did so much to eradicate native speakers that it is a steep hill to climb.
Yeah, that's an especially awkward case because modern political boundaries don't even approximate those of the first nations, so the cultures associated with those languages are also long dead. At least Irish national identity is still intact, even though they've lost a sixth of their land to a foreign aggressor.
You can't have lost land that you have never owned. Get a history book.
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You can't have lost land that you have never owned. Get a history book.
I put it to you that it is you who should learn some history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_invasion_of_Ireland
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You can't have lost land that you have never owned. Get a history book.
I put it to you that it is you who should learn some history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_invasion_of_Ireland
The Anglo-Normans were the medieval ruling class in England, composed mainly of a combination of ethnic Normans, French, Anglo-Saxons, Flemings and Bretons, following the Norman conquest.
Mmmm, these people sound like they are from the modern day EU, conquered us English and then pushed on to conquer the Irish. England has no charge to answer.
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Mmmm, these people sound like they are from the modern day EU, conquered us English and then pushed on to conquer the Irish. England has no charge to answer.
So are you retracting your claim that the Irish never owned the land?
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Mmmm, these people sound like they are from the modern day EU, conquered us English and then pushed on to conquer the Irish. England has no charge to answer.
So are you retracting your claim that the Irish never owned the land?
Sure they did ... but then they were all killed by the Celts in about 500BC. After this time there were no Irish. Just a bunch of European colonialists claiming to be the rightful owners of the land they conquered.
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Sure they did ... but then they were all killed by the Celts in about 500BC.
Source?
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It's a pretty big stretch to say that "the Irish" refers to the prehistoric inhabitants of Ireland that we know very little about and not the Celts, who forged a distinctive national identity and culture and maintained it for thousands of years. It's true that the Celts weren't the first inhabitants of Ireland, but very few ethnic groups were the first inhabitants of the nations they now identify with. For example, Anglo-Saxons are usually seen as being quintessentially English, but they have far less historical claim to Britain than the Celts do to Ireland.
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It's a pretty big stretch to say that "the Irish" refers to the prehistoric inhabitants of Ireland that we know very little about and not the Celts, who forged a distinctive national identity and culture and maintained it for thousands of years. It's true that the Celts weren't the first inhabitants of Ireland, but very few ethnic groups were the first inhabitants of the nations they now identify with. For example, Anglo-Saxons are usually seen as being quintessentially English, but they have far less historical claim to Britain than the Celts do to Ireland.
Precisely. It is equally a big stretch to claim that Northern Ireland belongs to the Irish, being as there were no Irish until their independence in 1922 ... we were all British. For them to claim independence in the South and suddenly also have the right to land in the North is an absurd claim. The people in the North (also British) decided to remain British via referendum and they live on the land they've always lived and their forefathers of thousands of years have lived. People in the South have no claim over the land of the North. Its not theirs. Never was theirs. Never belonged to their ancestors ... it belonged to the forefathers of those who now CURRENTLY live in Northern Ireland who choose to call themselves British.
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It is equally a big stretch to claim that Northern Ireland belongs to the Irish, being as there were no Irish until their independence in 1922 ... we were all British.
This is like saying there were no French in Paris in the 1940s. Being occupied by a foreign power doesn't suddenly change your national identity.
For them to claim independence in the South and suddenly also have the right to land in the North is an absurd claim.
There was no border between North and South until two years after the declaration of independence. The South didn't declare independence — the entire island did. Then the British took some of it back.
The people in the North (also British)
Wrong.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Map_of_predominant_national_identity_in_the_2011_census_in_Northern_Ireland.png/617px-Map_of_predominant_national_identity_in_the_2011_census_in_Northern_Ireland.png)
People in the South have no claim over the land of the North.
That's probably why they aren't claiming it.
Its not theirs. Never was theirs. Never belonged to their ancestors ...
We've just been over this. You don't get to ignore things we covered yesterday just because they're inconvenient for you. Do better.
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It is equally a big stretch to claim that Northern Ireland belongs to the Irish, being as there were no Irish until their independence in 1922 ... we were all British.
This is like saying there were no French in Paris in the 1940s. Being occupied by a foreign power doesn't suddenly change your national identity.
Of course it does. When the allies occupied Germany, those Germans became West Germans. Those occupied by the Russians became East Germans. The occupiers changed the names and borders and the Germans were who they were told to be.
If there was no Ireland for over 120 years ... no one held Irish citizenship. No one had an Irish passport. No one was Irish. Or are you trying to pretend that the people in France are actually Gauls, and that they will be Gauls again once they can break away from French rule? Will the Romans be making a comeback once they can overthrow their Italian oppressors? That's the exact same thing as claiming the Irish were Irish all along. They weren't.
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If there was no Ireland for over 120 years
Where did you get that from?
no one held Irish citizenship. No one had an Irish passport. No one was Irish.
Nobody holds Welsh citizenship or has a Welsh passport today. So, according to Thork, are there no Welsh?
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no one held Irish citizenship. No one had an Irish passport. No one was Irish.
Nobody holds Welsh citizenship or has a Welsh passport today. So, according to Thork, are there no Welsh?
This is like saying "Thork says there is no black people because there is no Blackland". You're arguments are ridiculous.
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This is like saying "Thork says there is no black people because there is no Blackland". You're arguments are ridiculous.
I'm glad we agree your position is ridiculous.
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This is like saying "Thork says there is no black people because there is no Blackland". You're arguments are ridiculous.
I'm glad we agree your position is ridiculous.
I said YOUR arguments are ridiculous. When you misinterpret even simple sentences I realise how much of my knowledgeable help is just passing you by. You're like a bucket with a hole in the bottom.
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I said YOUR arguments are ridiculous.
All I did was apply your argument about the Irish to the Welsh. If you agree it's ridiculous, my job here is done.
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Precisely. It is equally a big stretch to claim that Northern Ireland belongs to the Irish, being as there were no Irish until their independence in 1922 ... we were all British. For them to claim independence in the South and suddenly also have the right to land in the North is an absurd claim. The people in the North (also British) decided to remain British via referendum and they live on the land they've always lived and their forefathers of thousands of years have lived. People in the South have no claim over the land of the North. Its not theirs. Never was theirs. Never belonged to their ancestors ... it belonged to the forefathers of those who now CURRENTLY live in Northern Ireland who choose to call themselves British.
What kind of an argument is this? Irish history did not begin in the year 1922! When people talk about Ireland, they refer to a cultural and national identity that goes beyond the political entity officially known as the Republic of Ireland, and absolutely includes Northern Ireland. If the people of Northern Ireland want to remain a part of the United Kingdom, they have every right to, but come on, you can't just exclude vast chunks of history from "counting" due to who controlled the country politically at the time. Ireland was Ireland when it was controlled by the Celts, and Ireland was Ireland when it was controlled by the British.
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When people talk about Ireland, they refer to a cultural and national identity that goes beyond the political entity officially known as the Republic of Ireland, and absolutely includes Northern Ireland.
Actually, at least part of the confusion is that the official name of the Republic of Ireland in English is "Ireland" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Irish_state). The term "Republic of Ireland" is a description used when it is necessary to distinguish between the island of Ireland and the sovereign state. Of course, everyone except Thork is perfectly capable of navigating this ambiguity based on context.
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Just in case Thork hasn't run away from this thread, I'd also like to point out that Ireland isn't unique in the idea of a cultural and national identity not being limited to one particular ethnic group or political entity. I doubt you'd say that Hadrian's Wall shouldn't be considered a British landmark because it was built by the Romans, nor the White Tower because it was built by the Normans. Or just look at the body of legend surrounding King Arthur - it's hard to think of anything more quintessentially British than that, and yet it's known to be Celtic in origin.