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Offline Rushy

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #160 on: May 11, 2022, 03:04:48 PM »
I wasn't aware humans could resemble a heavy period and flush down the toilet.

Humans can resemble much worse than that, I'm afraid.

Just to be safe, let’s lock up anyone who has a miscarriage. They might have done it on purpose. It’s the only way to make sure everyone is putting enough value on human life.
/s

This but unironically.

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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #161 on: May 11, 2022, 05:02:56 PM »
Do you make exceptions for:

- Incest - Y/N
- Rape - Y/N
- Life threat to mother - Y/N

No to the first two. Yes to the last one, as it's human life vs human life.


- Morning-After Pills - Y/N
- IUDs - Y/N

IUDs, no, they prevent conception. Morning-after pills, yes.

Do people murder tapeworms?

If we're going to start comparing humans to parasites then I've got a very long list of humans that we can start aborting. They're all quite a bit past the 3rd trimester.

Thanks for your honest answers.

I didn't know this when I wrote the above, but Morning After Pills (ex., "Plan B") aren't abortion pills, they are simply contraceptives. RU-486, in contrast, is an "abortion" pill. It induces a miscarriage and the results are pretty much indistinguishable from a "natural" miscarriage. That being the case, in States that, let's say, ban abortions altogether, would you advocate that all reported miscarriages be vetted to make sure they weren't induced? And if somehow found to be induced, what sort of penalties would you levy against the woman?

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #162 on: May 11, 2022, 05:13:39 PM »
I didn't know this when I wrote the above, but Morning After Pills (ex., "Plan B") aren't abortion pills, they are simply contraceptives. RU-486, in contrast, is an "abortion" pill. It induces a miscarriage and the results are pretty much indistinguishable from a "natural" miscarriage.

So then "Plan B" is fine but RU-486 is not in that case.

And if somehow found to be induced, what sort of penalties would you levy against the woman?

Premeditated murder.

I don't see a difference between a woman purposefully ending her pregnancy because it inconveniences her versus a woman killing her toddler because it inconveniences her. Collectively, many have decided the former is fine while the latter is atrocious. I don't see how one can think of a toddler as independent (or, to put it to Roosroos' argument, not-a-parasite) versus a child still in the womb. They're all children, the only difference is age.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2022, 05:15:32 PM by Rushy »

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Offline rooster

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #163 on: May 11, 2022, 05:27:14 PM »
(or, to put it to Roosroos' argument, not-a-parasite)
For the record, I never said anything about what was human versus what was parasitic.

Thanks for your honest answers.
lmao

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Offline rooster

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #164 on: May 11, 2022, 05:29:12 PM »
I don't see a difference between a woman purposefully ending her pregnancy because it inconveniences her
On this line of thought though, where would you draw the line between inconvenience and genuine life changing harm?

Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #165 on: May 11, 2022, 05:31:16 PM »
I don't see a difference between a woman purposefully ending her pregnancy because it inconveniences her versus a woman killing her toddler because it inconveniences her.
Yes you do.

Quote
They're all children, the only difference is age.
No they aren't.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #166 on: May 11, 2022, 05:31:47 PM »
I don't see a difference between a woman purposefully ending her pregnancy because it inconveniences
On this line of thought though, where would you draw the line between inconvenience and genuine life changing harm?

I wouldn't, as there isn't any. What is mere inconvenience to one is "genuine life changing harm" to another. Maybe women should think more about how important the life of their children is versus drinking starbucks and eating avocado toast all day.

For the record, I never said anything about what was human versus what was parasitic.

Yes, you only mentioned tapeworms in a thread about abortion. I can imagine all the infinite lines of reasoning you were going down. Certainly not comparing abortion to killing parasites. Nope. That wasn't going to be it at all, obviously.

I don't see a difference between a woman purposefully ending her pregnancy because it inconveniences her versus a woman killing her toddler because it inconveniences her.
Yes you do.

Quote
They're all children, the only difference is age.
No they aren't.

Nice opinion.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2022, 05:33:19 PM by Rushy »

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Offline rooster

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #167 on: May 11, 2022, 05:40:52 PM »
I don't see a difference between a woman purposefully ending her pregnancy because it inconveniences
On this line of thought though, where would you draw the line between inconvenience and genuine life changing harm?

I wouldn't, as there isn't any. What is mere inconvenience to one is "genuine life changing harm" to another. Maybe women should think more about how important the life of their children is versus drinking starbucks and eating avocado toast all day.
So anything less than death would just be an inconvenience?

For the record, I never said anything about what was human versus what was parasitic.

Yes, you only mentioned tapeworms in a thread about abortion. I can imagine all the infinite lines of reasoning you were going down. Certainly not comparing abortion to killing parasites. Nope. That wasn't going to be it at all, obviously.
Markjo made the tapeworm comparison. Tom Bishop then said people acknowledge killing a tapeworm so killing = murder. I was just being pedantic about how you literally can't murder a tapeworm.

« Last Edit: May 11, 2022, 05:43:37 PM by rooster »

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #168 on: May 11, 2022, 05:46:08 PM »
So anything less than death would just be an inconvenience?

Correct.

Markjo made the tapeworm comparison. Tom Bishop then said people acknowledge killing a tapeworm so killing = murder. I was just being pedantic about how you literally can't murder a tapeworm.

I see.

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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #169 on: May 11, 2022, 05:55:42 PM »
I didn't know this when I wrote the above, but Morning After Pills (ex., "Plan B") aren't abortion pills, they are simply contraceptives. RU-486, in contrast, is an "abortion" pill. It induces a miscarriage and the results are pretty much indistinguishable from a "natural" miscarriage.

So then "Plan B" is fine but RU-486 is not in that case.

And if somehow found to be induced, what sort of penalties would you levy against the woman?

Premeditated murder.

I don't see a difference between a woman purposefully ending her pregnancy because it inconveniences her versus a woman killing her toddler because it inconveniences her. Collectively, many have decided the former is fine while the latter is atrocious. I don't see how one can think of a toddler as independent (or, to put it to Roosroos' argument, not-a-parasite) versus a child still in the womb. They're all children, the only difference is age.

I'm struggling with rape & incest falling into the "inconvenience" bucket. But I see your point if you go down the path of anything after the point of conception is life, therefore, murder. I disagree, but that's why we have differences of opinion.

So therein lies the Premeditated murder as a charge and ensuing penalty - Murder 1, life in prison without parole or death penalty.
Back to the first part of my question, in States that, let's say, ban abortions altogether, would you advocate that all reported miscarriages be vetted by some authority to make sure they weren't induced, that they weren't murder?

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #170 on: May 11, 2022, 06:00:34 PM »
So therein lies the Premeditated murder as a charge and ensuing penalty - Murder 1, life in prison without parole or death penalty.
Back to the first part of my question, in States that, let's say, ban abortions altogether, would you advocate that all reported miscarriages be vetted by some authority to make sure they weren't induced, that they weren't murder?

It would be incredibly difficult to prove a miscarriage is intentional (the standard of evidence is likewise very high). Investigating every single one would be impossible, investigating a few suspicious ones would be warranted. It would work much the same way deaths do right now. Not all deaths receive the same amount of investigative vigor. Some are obviously accidental or anticipated and some are not. The primary reporting agent would probably be a woman's doctor who would be (in an ideal world) obligated to report wrongful termination of a pregnancy.

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Offline crutonius

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #171 on: May 11, 2022, 10:52:34 PM »
So therein lies the Premeditated murder as a charge and ensuing penalty - Murder 1, life in prison without parole or death penalty.
Back to the first part of my question, in States that, let's say, ban abortions altogether, would you advocate that all reported miscarriages be vetted by some authority to make sure they weren't induced, that they weren't murder?

It would be incredibly difficult to prove a miscarriage is intentional (the standard of evidence is likewise very high). Investigating every single one would be impossible, investigating a few suspicious ones would be warranted. It would work much the same way deaths do right now. Not all deaths receive the same amount of investigative vigor. Some are obviously accidental or anticipated and some are not. The primary reporting agent would probably be a woman's doctor who would be (in an ideal world) obligated to report wrongful termination of a pregnancy.

That's a tough one.  But we are talking about the lives of innocent children.  Letting this go would effectively nullify any attempt to outlaw abortion as the vast majority of abortions are done with a pill.

I think the only sensible thing to do would be to forcibly collect urine samples of all women of child bearing age to detect any possible abortifacients.  Perhaps a less heavy handed way would be to analyze the sewage for traces of abortifacients and use massive public surveillance to narrow down these murderers.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #172 on: May 11, 2022, 11:54:38 PM »
Banning abortion will be a benefit to women. Most women aren't baby-hating feminists who think that babies are parasites and who shun the idea of motherhood. They are just normal girls who would have the baby with their boyfriend if the situation was right. They were tricked by society into thinking that abortion was the easy way out, and often suffer a great deal as result of their mistake. Have a look at sites like https://abortiontestimonials.com -

https://abortiontestimonials.com/the-pain-never-goes-away-2

    "39 years later I still think about every detail of that day. It never goes away. I was almost 16 and did not want my parents to know and didn’t feel like I had another choice. My boyfriend was supportive of whatever I decided. Even though it was my choice it doesn’t make the pain I feel go away."

Wow, 39 years of torment. Tricked into doing something by people telling her that there was an easy way out.

https://abortiontestimonials.com/i-will-never-be-the-same

    "My parents told me I had one option, abortion or get kicked out of the house and go to a shelter in the city. I didnt want to have to move out, never see my boyfriend again and go to a new school and be pregnant. My boyfriends dad and step mom came over Monday night the night after I told my mom and they all told me I have to get an abortion or it’s going to wreck everyones life. My boyfriend supported me and my thought for adoption. But once his dad came to talk to me and my mom he changed his mind and told me I should get one. The next day my mom called the planned parenthood and made an appointment for that coming friday for me to have an abortion. I will never forget having to wake up at 5 am to get there for an 8 am appointment to do something I didn’t want to do but I felt like I ha no choice to do.

    ...And now I am living with something I didn’t want to do that everyone else pressured me into, for the rest of my life. I regret it and I want my baby back. I should have never listened to them. I had no support though. My family, even my brother didn’t support my adoption idea and neither did My boyfriends parents or my boyfriend! He backed out on me and stopped supporting me. I felt like the whole world was against me."

In an ideal world those people who pressured her would be in jail.

That site has one sad story after the next, from people who were pressured into it, or who thought that abortion was the easy way out but forgot that they had a conscience.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2022, 12:18:21 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #173 on: May 12, 2022, 12:28:30 AM »
Tom thinks “Leave It to Beaver” was reality TV.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Iceman

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #174 on: May 12, 2022, 02:17:23 AM »
“Banning abortion will be a benefit to women”
               -an old conservative white guy

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Offline rooster

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #175 on: May 12, 2022, 04:51:01 AM »
« Last Edit: May 12, 2022, 04:53:21 AM by rooster »

Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #176 on: May 12, 2022, 06:30:14 AM »
“Banning abortion will be a benefit to women”
               -an old conservative white guy
Women are happiest when they’re barefoot and pregnant. That’s just science

Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #177 on: May 12, 2022, 06:48:15 AM »
That site has one sad story after the next, from people who were pressured into it, or who thought that abortion was the easy way out but forgot that they had a conscience.

50 or so negative testimonials in 14 years?

From the CDC :
In 2019, 629,898 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC from 49 reporting areas. Among 48 reporting areas with data each year during 2010–2019, in 2019, a total of 625,346 abortions were reported, the abortion rate was 11.4 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years, and the abortion ratio was 195 abortions per 1,000 live births.

From 2010 to 2019, the number, rate, and ratio of reported abortions decreased 18%, 21%, and 13%, respectively. However, compared with 2018, in 2019, the total number increased 2%, the rate of reported abortions increased by 0.9%, and the abortion ratio increased by 3%.


With maybe 8.5 million abortions over the past 14 years, I would expect more negative testimonials than just 50. I guess only 50 people have a conscience.

I wonder if I submitted a non-negative story regarding an abortion would they post it? Something like, "Drs said I would die if I tried to carry to term..." or "My uncle raped me and I was suicidal at the thought of having to birth his child..."

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #178 on: May 12, 2022, 07:12:57 AM »
lol the majority of women do not have any regrets about their abortions and generally rarely think about them. https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/01/416421/five-years-after-abortion-nearly-all-women-say-it-was-right-decision-study
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/study-finds-99-of-women-say-they-do-not-regret-having-an-abortion

Those are puff papers to deny the obvious. Look at the manipulative questions they are asking:

    “Even if they had difficulty making the decision initially, or if they felt their community would not approve, our research shows that the overwhelming majority of women who obtain abortions continue to believe it was the right decision,” said Corinne Rocca, PhD, MPH, associate professor in the UCSF Department of Obstetrics, Gynecology and Reproductive Sciences, and first author of the study. “This debunks the idea that most women suffer emotionally from having an abortion.”

It is concluded that if they said it was the right decision it means that they did not suffer emotionally. Ridiculous.

Say something crazy happened in your life and your mother came at you with a knife and you had to kill her. You reflect later that it was the right decision for the situation. Does that mean you didn't suffer emotionally? Does it mean that you didn't wish things could be different? If you stated at some later point that killing your mother was the right decision and a 'researcher' concludes from that that you didn't suffer emotionally in an effort to debunk the people claiming that you did suffer emotionally then it is clearly bunk.

The NHS admits in its "information for patients" wellbeing guide on abortions that it is common for women to feel sad about their abortion:

https://sexualhealthsheffield.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Wellbeing-after-an-abortion.pdf

    "Feeling relieved not to be pregnant and yet sad at the same time can be a confusing combination, but is common and understandable. Some women will know 'in their head' that having an abortion was the right decision and do not regret it, but at the same time feel sad 'in their heart' about the end of the pregnancy."

The guide says that 'common experiences' a women can feel are guilt, regret, anger, and post-traumatic stress effects from the procedure. It advises women that:

    "What we hope is that in the future you will look back on this time and say 'that was difficult but it was the best decision I could make at that time'."

It is acknowledged that the process of having an abortion is not like killing a spider and going on your way. It is a tragedy that must be processed.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2022, 10:41:47 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #179 on: May 12, 2022, 08:17:35 AM »
How many people would choose to be retroactively aborted? Probably about as many as the suicide rate, which is about 1 in 10,000 in the US. If there was a way to give the baby a choice, most would choose to be born. Still, I’m not entirely pro-life from a legal standpoint. I think it’s wrong, but probably shouldn’t be illegal. Maybe just let women decide on it.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2022, 08:19:10 AM by Fortuna »