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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #100 on: May 07, 2022, 11:17:46 PM »
Then why do 60% of adults think that abortion should be legal?  Apparently SCOTUS does not reflect the opinions of the majority.

That number actually seems pretty low for that question if it's supposed to support the leftists. The red states are pushing laws that make abortion legal in the earliest stages. That sounds like 40% of people want more restrictive laws than the reddest states, which is a surprising number to say the least.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2022, 11:23:57 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline crutonius

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #101 on: May 07, 2022, 11:55:59 PM »
Then why do 60% of adults think that abortion should be legal?  Apparently SCOTUS does not reflect the opinions of the majority.

That number actually seems pretty low for that question if it's supposed to support the leftists. The red states are pushing laws that make abortion legal in the earliest stages. That sounds like 40% of people want more restrictive laws than the reddest states, which is a surprising number to say the least.

Some red states are. Other red states are classifying it as homicide.

Out of curiosity where do you stand on it? Any exceptions or is it murder as soon as the sperm penetrates the egg?

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Offline rooster

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #102 on: May 08, 2022, 06:47:07 AM »
noooo it's not a baby, use a more dehumanizing scientific term, like zygote or fetus!
Hell yeah, you said it brother.

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Offline crutonius

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #103 on: May 08, 2022, 07:04:40 AM »
I prefer to refer to all humans  born or unborn as the predeceased.

Much less baggage that way.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #104 on: May 08, 2022, 09:09:04 AM »
Then why do 60% of adults think that abortion should be legal?  Apparently SCOTUS does not reflect the opinions of the majority.

That number actually seems pretty low for that question if it's supposed to support the leftists. The red states are pushing laws that make abortion legal in the earliest stages. That sounds like 40% of people want more restrictive laws than the reddest states, which is a surprising number to say the least.

Some red states are. Other red states are classifying it as homicide.

Out of curiosity where do you stand on it? Any exceptions or is it murder as soon as the sperm penetrates the egg?

My position is  that existing fetal homicide laws should apply to the mother as well. Existing state fetal homicide laws make termination of almost any stage of pregnancy illegal - https://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx

In the 1700's and 1800's when abortion was widely illegal and taboo society was built around it. Sex leads to pregnancy, so men and women were taught to carefully select their partners. Ideally it was best to wait until marriage, but usage of early contraceptives were permissible to some degree. If you did get someone pregnant while dating you were expected to marry the woman and raise the child, not abort it. Abortion was not even considered in the event of a pregnancy. Therefore, don't date someone you wouldn't marry. It's pretty simple. It also prevents young adults from wasting their time with incompatible partners. They should only be having sex with someone they are willing to marry in the event of pregnancy.

I would prefer society to return to that type of existence. If people just increased their standards in partner selection again they wouldn't have to kill innocent life.

In regards to rape, only about 1% of abortions occur as a result of rape. This is hardly a factor for keeping mass abortion and allowing people to be so reckless with their lives.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2022, 09:34:01 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #105 on: May 08, 2022, 11:12:35 AM »
That sounds like 40% of people want more restrictive laws ...

... or they have no specific view on the matter.

And 40% (or less) is still a minority.


EDIT Only 37% specifically opine that abortion should be illegal. An even smaller minority than stated above. Of those, 27% opine it should be illegal "in most cases",  8% in "All cases, no exceptions", 2% "All cases, but with exceptions"  So 29% of that 37% would allow for some flexibility in circumstance, as opposed to a blanket ban.

61+37 = 98, so 2% either had no opinion or abstained.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2022, 11:48:52 AM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #106 on: May 08, 2022, 11:16:08 AM »
I would prefer society to return to that type of existence.

Are you any kin to SCOTUS Judge Barrett?
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Offline rooster

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #107 on: May 08, 2022, 03:38:26 PM »
In the 1700's and 1800's when abortion was widely illegal and taboo society was built around it.
This is not true. It was only around the late 1800s that multiple states started making abortion illegal. Before that it was generally good sense to do so if you didn't have the resources.

The main reason they became illegal in the first place is because they were dangerous and could often kill the woman as well. The radical right we deal with today is a fairly new breed of person not based in history or tradition.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2022, 03:56:23 PM by rooster »

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Offline crutonius

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #108 on: May 08, 2022, 03:52:10 PM »
Then why do 60% of adults think that abortion should be legal?  Apparently SCOTUS does not reflect the opinions of the majority.

That number actually seems pretty low for that question if it's supposed to support the leftists. The red states are pushing laws that make abortion legal in the earliest stages. That sounds like 40% of people want more restrictive laws than the reddest states, which is a surprising number to say the least.

Some red states are. Other red states are classifying it as homicide.

Out of curiosity where do you stand on it? Any exceptions or is it murder as soon as the sperm penetrates the egg?

My position is  that existing fetal homicide laws should apply to the mother as well. Existing state fetal homicide laws make termination of almost any stage of pregnancy illegal - https://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx

In the 1700's and 1800's when abortion was widely illegal and taboo society was built around it. Sex leads to pregnancy, so men and women were taught to carefully select their partners. Ideally it was best to wait until marriage, but usage of early contraceptives were permissible to some degree. If you did get someone pregnant while dating you were expected to marry the woman and raise the child, not abort it. Abortion was not even considered in the event of a pregnancy. Therefore, don't date someone you wouldn't marry. It's pretty simple. It also prevents young adults from wasting their time with incompatible partners. They should only be having sex with someone they are willing to marry in the event of pregnancy.

I would prefer society to return to that type of existence. If people just increased their standards in partner selection again they wouldn't have to kill innocent life.

In regards to rape, only about 1% of abortions occur as a result of rape. This is hardly a factor for keeping mass abortion and allowing people to be so reckless with their lives.

So... IUDs?  Murder or not?

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #109 on: May 09, 2022, 01:46:16 PM »
Every ova and every sperm is a potential human.

No, they aren't. The combination of the two is a potential human, the two alone is nothing. You'll never make a human being with only half a working genome.

When is terminating a pregnancy equivalent to murdering a baby?

Always. Sometimes it's okay to kill things. I only ask that people accept they're killing them. It's like eating meat without accepting you're killing an animal or sentencing a rapist to death without admitting you're killing him.

Abortion isn't good. It's death. It's killing something that is alive. You are ending its life. When I eat a burger, I understand that I killed a cow. When I go hunting, I understand I'm putting a bullet through the heart of a deer. It's amazing how difficult it is for "pro-choice" individuals to accept that they are killing a human. I get it if you're for it. Just own it. "I want to kill humans in the womb" It's not a big deal to just admit it.



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Offline honk

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #110 on: May 09, 2022, 02:17:20 PM »
https://www.thedailybeast.com/republicans-are-wasting-no-time-pushing-dystopian-post-roe-v-wade-laws

This is the future Republicans are envisioning for us. Ordinarily, it would be political suicide to push an incredibly unpopular agenda like this so aggressively, but Republicans will find a way to cling to power, and probably even expand it.

Also, whenever anyone pro-choice "just admits" or "just owns" that, yes, they totally support killing babies, the discussion immediately turns into "Aha! They admit it! How old does a child have to be before their parents lose the right to murder them at will, you sicko? Three? Four?" It's not a good-faith debate tactic. The distinction between terminating a pregnancy and killing a baby is there to establish scope. It's not simply something that pro-choice people frantically tell themselves to soothe their consciences.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #111 on: May 09, 2022, 04:01:02 PM »
Every ova and every sperm is a potential human.

No, they aren't. The combination of the two is a potential human, the two alone is nothing. You'll never make a human being with only half a working genome.

When is terminating a pregnancy equivalent to murdering a baby?

Always. Sometimes it's okay to kill things. I only ask that people accept they're killing them. It's like eating meat without accepting you're killing an animal or sentencing a rapist to death without admitting you're killing him.

Abortion isn't good. It's death. It's killing something that is alive. You are ending its life. When I eat a burger, I understand that I killed a cow. When I go hunting, I understand I'm putting a bullet through the heart of a deer. It's amazing how difficult it is for "pro-choice" individuals to accept that they are killing a human. I get it if you're for it. Just own it. "I want to kill humans in the womb" It's not a big deal to just admit it.

But when does it become human?  What makes it human vs a lump of cells that have human dna?

My heart has my DNA and is alive.  If its removed but kept alive, is it human?
What about my arm?
Blood?
How much do we need to take away from a human before its not human?
What about a severed head.  Is that a human if its kept alive?


Basically: are we killing a human, or a bunch of cells that could become a human?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #112 on: May 09, 2022, 04:44:48 PM »
In the 1700's and 1800's when abortion was widely illegal and taboo society was built around it. Sex leads to pregnancy, so men and women were taught to carefully select their partners. Ideally it was best to wait until marriage ... etc.

I would prefer society to return to that type of existence.

Why? What difference do the family planning choices of others make to your life?


In regards to rape, only about 1% of abortions occur as a result of rape. This is hardly a factor for keeping mass abortion and allowing people to be so reckless with their lives.

So you're OK with abortion in that limited set of circumstances, where pregnancy has been forced upon the woman against her will? Limited abortion as opposed to mass?
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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #113 on: May 09, 2022, 04:52:10 PM »
It's amazing how difficult it is for "pro-choice" individuals to accept that they are killing a human.
Because they aren’t. No one believes an embryo or foetus is equivalent to a human life. People say they do, but I call bullshit on that.

I heard a thought experiment which I thought was interesting. You’re in a fertility clinic which catches fire. You run for the exit but on the way out you pass two doors. On your left you see a baby. On your right there are test tubes with a thousand human embryos ready for implanting. You only have time to go into one of the rooms to save one or the other. I’ve yet to hear anyone say they’d save the test tubes because that’s a thousand human lives and the baby is only one. Because some people say they regard them as equivalent but in reality they really don't. I’ve known people who have had miscarriages and of course it’s sad, but it’s not the depth of grief that someone experiences if they have a stillborn baby or a baby born alive and then dying. Most staunch anti abortion people concede that if there is a threat to the mother’s life then that life is prioritised over the unborn baby. Because in reality no one really regards them as equivalent.
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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #114 on: May 09, 2022, 06:42:50 PM »
When is terminating a pregnancy equivalent to murdering a baby?

Always. Sometimes it's okay to kill things. I only ask that people accept they're killing them. It's like eating meat without accepting you're killing an animal or sentencing a rapist to death without admitting you're killing him.

Abortion isn't good. It's death. It's killing something that is alive. You are ending its life. When I eat a burger, I understand that I killed a cow. When I go hunting, I understand I'm putting a bullet through the heart of a deer. It's amazing how difficult it is for "pro-choice" individuals to accept that they are killing a human. I get it if you're for it. Just own it. "I want to kill humans in the womb" It's not a big deal to just admit it.

Where's the exact line where something is considered "alive"?

Is it at fertilization? Are AATW's testube contents "alive"?

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #115 on: May 09, 2022, 06:53:16 PM »
When is terminating a pregnancy equivalent to murdering a baby?

Always. Sometimes it's okay to kill things. I only ask that people accept they're killing them. It's like eating meat without accepting you're killing an animal or sentencing a rapist to death without admitting you're killing him.

Abortion isn't good. It's death. It's killing something that is alive. You are ending its life. When I eat a burger, I understand that I killed a cow. When I go hunting, I understand I'm putting a bullet through the heart of a deer. It's amazing how difficult it is for "pro-choice" individuals to accept that they are killing a human. I get it if you're for it. Just own it. "I want to kill humans in the womb" It's not a big deal to just admit it.

Where's the exact line where something is considered "alive"?

Is it at fertilization? Are AATW's testube contents "alive"?

Alive is easy: alive is conception.  The egg and sperm become a living cell, in so far as the definition of alive is.
But your blood cells are alive so there's that.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #116 on: May 09, 2022, 09:48:24 PM »
When is terminating a pregnancy equivalent to murdering a baby?

Always. Sometimes it's okay to kill things. I only ask that people accept they're killing them. It's like eating meat without accepting you're killing an animal or sentencing a rapist to death without admitting you're killing him.

Abortion isn't good. It's death. It's killing something that is alive. You are ending its life. When I eat a burger, I understand that I killed a cow. When I go hunting, I understand I'm putting a bullet through the heart of a deer. It's amazing how difficult it is for "pro-choice" individuals to accept that they are killing a human. I get it if you're for it. Just own it. "I want to kill humans in the womb" It's not a big deal to just admit it.

Where's the exact line where something is considered "alive"?

Is it at fertilization? Are AATW's testube contents "alive"?

Alive is easy: alive is conception.  The egg and sperm become a living cell, in so far as the definition of alive is.
But your blood cells are alive so there's that.

I guess we should probably get rid of contraception too, specifically IUD's:
Can IUDs be used as emergency contraception?
Yes! The Paragard, Mirena, and Liletta IUDs work super well as emergency contraception. If you get one of these IUDs put in within 120 hours (5 days) after unprotected sex, it’s more than 99% effective. It’s actually the most effective way to prevent pregnancy after sex.

Now that is a slippery slope.

Or maybe, more concisely, this is the point at which it's truly alive:

As the sperm approach the egg, they bind to the zona pellucida in a process known as sperm binding. This triggers the acrosome reaction, in which the enzymes of the acrosome are freed. These enzymes then begin to digest the zona pellucida and allow the sperm to tunnel toward the egg’s plasma membrane. When the sperm cell finally reaches the egg cell, the plasma membranes of the two cells fuse together and the sperm releases its genetic material into the egg. At this point, fertilization has occurred.

Experts say that the sperm can navigate the uterus and fallopian tubes to reach the egg as soon as 30 minutes after ejaculation. So maybe life begins, being alive, for the speedier spermatozoa, a 1/2 hour after sex. Doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room, so to speak.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #117 on: May 09, 2022, 11:43:55 PM »
But when does it become human? 

Conception.

Also, whenever anyone pro-choice "just admits" or "just owns" that, yes, they totally support killing babies, the discussion immediately turns into "Aha! They admit it! How old does a child have to be before their parents lose the right to murder them at will, you sicko? Three? Four?" It's not a good-faith debate tactic. The distinction between terminating a pregnancy and killing a baby is there to establish scope. It's not simply something that pro-choice people frantically tell themselves to soothe their consciences.

How old does a child have to be before their parents lose the right to murder them at will, you sicko?

Where's the exact line where something is considered "alive"?

Is it at fertilization? Are AATW's testube contents "alive"?

See above.

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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #118 on: May 10, 2022, 12:32:03 AM »
But when does it become human? 

Conception.

Also, whenever anyone pro-choice "just admits" or "just owns" that, yes, they totally support killing babies, the discussion immediately turns into "Aha! They admit it! How old does a child have to be before their parents lose the right to murder them at will, you sicko? Three? Four?" It's not a good-faith debate tactic. The distinction between terminating a pregnancy and killing a baby is there to establish scope. It's not simply something that pro-choice people frantically tell themselves to soothe their consciences.

How old does a child have to be before their parents lose the right to murder them at will, you sicko?

Where's the exact line where something is considered "alive"?

Is it at fertilization? Are AATW's testube contents "alive"?

See above.

Do you make exceptions for:

- Incest - Y/N
- Rape - Y/N
- Life threat to mother - Y/N

Would you ban:

- Morning-After Pills - Y/N
- IUDs - Y/N

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Offline honk

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #119 on: May 10, 2022, 01:58:55 AM »
I don't know why you're even bothering to ask. Of course his answers are no to the first category and yes to the second. Rushy is deliberately arguing from the most extreme position he can. You're not actually having a heart-to-heart discussion with him.
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