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Offline AATW

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #80 on: May 07, 2022, 06:09:50 AM »
Actually there is an even older law that supercedes those "established" "rights".
Do you even know what supercedes means?
An older law can’t supercede a newer one. Laws and constitutions aren’t one off documents that stand for all time, never to be changed. You understand your constitution has amendments, right?
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #81 on: May 07, 2022, 07:41:42 AM »
Laws and constitutions aren’t one off documents that stand for all time, never to be changed. You understand your constitution has amendments, right?

No one added an abortion amendment.

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Offline AATW

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #82 on: May 07, 2022, 08:39:52 AM »
Laws and constitutions aren’t one off documents that stand for all time, never to be changed. You understand your constitution has amendments, right?

No one added an abortion amendment.
The Roe vs Wade ruling was based in the constitution and the 14th amendment thereof.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #83 on: May 07, 2022, 08:51:39 AM »
Here is the 14th Amendment - https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv

Let us know when you find anything about abortions.

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Offline AATW

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #84 on: May 07, 2022, 08:58:33 AM »
I mean, I could just repeat what I said above I guess? What part of “based on” is confusing you? You’re not arguing with me, you’re arguing with the Supreme Court - y’know, the people whose job is to make and interpret law.
Now, subsequent Supreme Courts may take a different view and their rulings may supercede Roe vs Wade. But Roe vs Wade can’t be superceded by something which came before it which was your original claim.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #85 on: May 07, 2022, 09:17:48 AM »
I mean, I could just repeat what I said above I guess? What part of “based on” is confusing you? You’re not arguing with me, you’re arguing with the Supreme Court - y’know, the people whose job is to make and interpret law.
Now, subsequent Supreme Courts may take a different view and their rulings may supercede Roe vs Wade. But Roe vs Wade can’t be superceded by something which came before it which was your original claim.

The Supreme Court just said that a previous generation of the Supreme Court was wrong about this. I don't see how appealing to the authority of a Supreme Court is going to help you on this.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #86 on: May 07, 2022, 09:26:00 AM »
But Tom, the ruling hasn't been made yet.  Only a draft that was leaked...

Surely you know the difference, yes?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline AATW

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #87 on: May 07, 2022, 10:18:54 AM »
The Supreme Court just said that a previous generation of the Supreme Court was wrong about this. I don't see how appealing to the authority of a Supreme Court is going to help you on this.
They are literally the authority.
And I already said that this generation of Supreme Court may come to a different view to a previous generation.
Your original claim was that Roe vs Wade “supercedes” the Constitution. That’s simply wrong in 2 ways. Firstly, it was based on the Constitution. Secondly, that’s not what supercede means, it’s literally the opposite.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #88 on: May 07, 2022, 11:34:08 AM »
But Tom, the ruling hasn't been made yet.  Only a draft that was leaked...

Surely you know the difference, yes?

I don't see how that doesn't qualify as "they said".

The Supreme Court just said that a previous generation of the Supreme Court was wrong about this. I don't see how appealing to the authority of a Supreme Court is going to help you on this.
They are literally the authority.
And I already said that this generation of Supreme Court may come to a different view to a previous generation.
Your original claim was that Roe vs Wade “supercedes” the Constitution. That’s simply wrong in 2 ways. Firstly, it was based on the Constitution. Secondly, that’s not what supercede means, it’s literally the opposite.

I said that the Constitution supersedes Roe vs Wade. It was only based on the Constitution in as much it was claimed that the word "liberty" in the 14th Amendment meant that killing babies in the womb was okay. The Constitution does not directly address abortion. The current Supreme Court has recently said that the Roe vs Wade decision was incorrect.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2022, 11:36:40 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline AATW

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #89 on: May 07, 2022, 11:46:43 AM »
I said that the Constitution supersedes Roe vs Wade.
Yes, apologies. I only just noticed my typo.
And you were incorrect for the reasons mentioned.

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The Constitution does not directly address abortion.
Right. So any ruling about it must necessarily be an interpretation. Roe vs Wade was one such interpretation. An appeal to authority about a point of law is hardly spurious when they are literally the authority whose job it is to make rulings on such matters.

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The current Supreme Court has recently said that the Roe vs Wade decision was incorrect.
Right. And that could supersede Roe vs Wade. Which is what that word means. See?
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline markjo

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #90 on: May 07, 2022, 03:42:57 PM »
Here is the 14th Amendment - https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv

Let us know when you find anything about abortions.
In the Roe v Wade case, the right to an abortion was determined to be covered by the Due Process Clause of the 14th amendment and is explained here:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/amendment-5/right-to-an-abortion
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #91 on: May 07, 2022, 04:08:28 PM »
Here is the 14th Amendment - https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv

Let us know when you find anything about abortions.

10 Supreme Court cases about the 14th Amendment

I didn't find anything in the 14th amendment about slaughterhouses, bakers, & train cars either. Bizarre. Let us know when you find anything about slaughterhouses, bakers, & train cars.
Do you have even a clue how the SCOTUS rules on issues deemed constitutionally related? Apparently not.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #92 on: May 07, 2022, 04:29:57 PM »
Here is the 14th Amendment - https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv

Let us know when you find anything about abortions.
In the Roe v Wade case, the right to an abortion was determined to be covered by the Due Process Clause of the 14th amendment and is explained here:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/amendment-5/right-to-an-abortion

Here is a quote from that link:

    Then, the Court established that the word “person” as used in the Due Process Clause and in other provisions of the Constitution did not include the unborn, and therefore the unborn lacked federal constitutional protection.3 Finally, the Court summarily announced that the “ Fourteenth Amendment’s concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action” includes “a right of personal privacy, or a guarantee of certain areas or zones of privacy” 4 and that “this right of privacy . . . is broad enough to encompass a woman’s decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy.” 5

The danger of this is that another court could interpret the word "person" and "liberty" to mean different things. Very vague.

It can be considered murder or manslaughter if you cause a woman to lose her baby. It is not just an assault charge. Yet many leftists want the woman to be able to do it without repercussion.

Do you have even a clue how the SCOTUS rules on issues deemed constitutionally related? Apparently not.

I do know how it works. One court wanted to give liberal interpretations to vague concepts and another one didn't. I don't see what the point of appealing to the authority of the SCOTUS is considering that the SCOTUS just said that the Row Vs. Wade ruling was incorrect. Kind of puts a contradictory damper on your narrative that the SCOTUS has been making correct decisions.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2022, 04:58:13 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline AATW

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #93 on: May 07, 2022, 04:59:29 PM »
I don't see what the point of appealing to the authority of the SCOTUS is considering that the SCOTUS just said that the Row Vs. Wade ruling was incorrect. Kind of puts a contradictory damper on your narrative that the SCOTUS has been making correct decisions.
Holy shit. How hard is this to understand?
The reason to appeal to the authority of the SCOTUS is that they literally are the authority.
And there is no objective measure of “correct”. People have been debating whether Roe vs Wade was “correct” since the ruling.

You surely understand that over time attitudes and opinions change some things which were once illegal and taboo are now legal (gay marriage), other things which were once legal are now illegal and taboo (slavery). And there’s not always a straight line of travel, sometimes laws or amendments are made but then later repealed. You may have heard of prohibition.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #94 on: May 07, 2022, 05:03:15 PM »
I do know how it works.

Apparently, you don't. It's a draft decision. SCOTUS hasn't ruled yet.

One court wanted to give liberal interpretations to vague concepts and another one didn't. I don't see what the point of appealing to the authority of the SCOTUS is considering that the SCOTUS just said that the Row Vs. Wade ruling was incorrect. Kind of puts a contradictory damper on your narrative that the SCOTUS has been making correct decisions.

Where did I say SCOTUS makes correct or incorrect decisions? It's just bizarre that it's taken SCOTUS 50 years of hearing untold numbers of challenges to RvW to finally be like, "Oh yeah, that was some liberal non-constitutional shit way back then and ever since."

Not unprecedented, but I wonder why now?

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #95 on: May 07, 2022, 05:09:26 PM »
Then I suppose it's a good thing for *abortion* to go away, then.
Good thing for who? We don't need more people.

Abortion won't go away, it'll only be illegal. It will be as successful as the war on drugs.

Just like murdering adults, murdering babies won't go away because it's illegal. However, it would be insane to argue that we should make murdering adults legal just because some people do it anyway. I'm not sure why you would argue that murdering babies should be legal just because a few people do it regardless of its legal status. It's not at all like drugs.

That you would edit my post to "abortion" makes it that much darker. Imagine thinking that ending a potential human life is fine as long as you switch the wording up a bit. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before we reach the "noooo it's not a baby, use a more dehumanizing scientific term, like zygote or fetus!"

« Last Edit: May 07, 2022, 05:11:34 PM by Rushy »

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #96 on: May 07, 2022, 05:17:43 PM »
Just here to say that “potential human” is not a very useful term. Every ova and every sperm is a potential human. It’s been mentioned before, but there needs to be a good conversation that has nothing to do with politicians about how to classify this.

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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #97 on: May 07, 2022, 05:59:05 PM »
Then I suppose it's a good thing for *abortion* to go away, then.
Good thing for who? We don't need more people.

Abortion won't go away, it'll only be illegal. It will be as successful as the war on drugs.

Just like murdering adults, murdering babies won't go away because it's illegal. However, it would be insane to argue that we should make murdering adults legal just because some people do it anyway. I'm not sure why you would argue that murdering babies should be legal just because a few people do it regardless of its legal status. It's not at all like drugs.

That you would edit my post to "abortion" makes it that much darker. Imagine thinking that ending a potential human life is fine as long as you switch the wording up a bit. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before we reach the "noooo it's not a baby, use a more dehumanizing scientific term, like zygote or fetus!"

Where do you draw the line, if you have one? That always seems to be the sticking point - When is terminating a pregnancy equivalent to murdering a baby?

Other things I don't know, in the case of life threatening the mother abortions, is it just the threat or does it have to be an absolute: "The mother will definitely die if she tries to carry the fetus to term..."

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #98 on: May 07, 2022, 10:47:23 PM »
Holy shit. How hard is this to understand?
The reason to appeal to the authority of the SCOTUS is that they literally are the authority.

And the authority the SCOTUS indicated in their draft that they are going to get rid of Roe vs Wade because it was incorrect. Since you love the authority of the SCOTUS so much that you need to appeal to it, what are you complaining about?

Quote
And there is no objective measure of “correct”. People have been debating whether Roe vs Wade was “correct” since the ruling.

You surely understand that over time attitudes and opinions change some things which were once illegal and taboo are now legal (gay marriage), other things which were once legal are now illegal and taboo (slavery). And there’s not always a straight line of travel, sometimes laws or amendments are made but then later repealed. You may have heard of prohibition.

Cocaine was once legal and now it's illegal. Considering the repeal of Row vs Wade, the heartbeat bills, the 15 weeks bans, the existence of state laws criminalizing or limiting abortion, and a number of other abortion laws in individual states it looks like abortion is on its way towards becoming severely limited in the US. If you are arguing that abortion might make a comeback in the US, that is not the trend.

Where did I say SCOTUS makes correct or incorrect decisions? It's just bizarre that it's taken SCOTUS 50 years of hearing untold numbers of challenges to RvW to finally be like, "Oh yeah, that was some liberal non-constitutional shit way back then and ever since."

Not unprecedented, but I wonder why now?

It is pretty simple to understand why this occurred. No need to be confused. The US is a democratic republic. We elect politicians who represent our views, who appoint judges who represent their constituent's views. There has been a growing number of people in the US who don't like abortion, and therefore there has been a growing number of lawmakers and judges who don't like abortions. Therefore the SCOTUS reviewed the abortion precedent and has indicated in their draft that they disagree and are going to repeal Row vs. Wade. Any further questions?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2022, 11:14:34 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #99 on: May 07, 2022, 11:12:53 PM »
If you are arguing that abortion might make a comeback in the US, that is not the trend.
Then why do 60% of adults think that abortion should be legal?  Apparently SCOTUS does not reflect the opinions of the majority.
Approximately six in 10 U.S. adults believe abortion should be legal in "all or most cases," according to a newly released Pew Research Center survey.

Driving the news: The poll was conducted before the leak of the draft opinion revealing the U.S. Supreme Court might overturn Roe v. Wade and shows how a wide swath of the public is supportive of abortion rights.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.