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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9360 on: January 13, 2022, 07:17:57 AM »
While lack of trust in your government isn't uniquely American (is anything?), What is less common is the American culture of 'staying true to your convictions no matter what' and 'a single man can and should stand up and fight for what he believes in.'

Which causes a whole heap of issues such as refusing to change your opinions or what you think are facts, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.  Those that do are 'wishy washy' or 'flaky' or not 'True believers'.   It also means people are more willing to be angry when the government does something they don't like.  They honestly think its morally wrong and they have a duty to fight back and change things. (tho most won't). And by fight back I mean actually use force because clearly voting isn't working.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Trump
« Reply #9361 on: January 13, 2022, 10:12:17 AM »
Sorry, I should specify: it’s normal for the loser of a US election to be more suspicious of the result than the winner. Like Russiagate in 2016.
Hmm, were the numbers of Democrats that brought Trump's election into question actually comparable to what's happening now?
Probably not. But then this is the only election I can remember in a functioning democracy where you have the person who lost claiming he won and making endless baseless claims of election fraud.
Add the cult like following he has and here we are. It feels like a blip caused by one delusional wannabe dictator (thankfully he picked the wrong country) rather than a direction of travel.
Although we are certainly living in a world where telling truth from fiction is increasingly difficult which fuels a million conspiracy theories. If Trump had tried this nonsense 30 years ago I don't think he'd have got anywhere near the traction he has.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9362 on: January 13, 2022, 11:19:38 AM »
To be fair, you're surely aware how your statement will likely read in a world of bad-faith "I just think it's interesting" and "I'm just asking question" interlocutors that vaguepost and then get indignant and defensive when pushed on implications.
*shrug* If I was aware that's how I'd be read, I'd have been more careful in my phrasing. I was vague because my thoughts are vague - it is very interesting to me that that's what's happening, but I don't have much deeper insight on the matter.

Do you mind linking some data for this?
I am solely commenting on the article Saddam linked (that's why I quoted it), and this diagram within:


It's super obvious that Republicans drive the majority of the "all respondents" result, but it paints a bleak picture. The independents' result, which I realise is a relatively small proportion of the population, is also interesting to me. This should be a group that, at least in theory, is not bound to Trump, and yet it's only a slim majority that are either convinced or mostly convinced.

I'm not seeing any great data for independents this election vs prior elections. If you have that that'd be great, otherwise I'll look again after work.
I don't, as I already mentioned.

Basically I don't disagree that it's interesting by the definition of the word, but interesting can mean so many things colloquially that it just seems like a weird post to make with no further extrapolation.
And I think you've locked on to a single reading of a sentence and you're trying to push its meaning onto me. I said it, it turned out not to be clear, so I clarified it. What the hell do you want from me at this point?

68% for Independents seems like what I would expect
You might be looking at a different poll from the one we were talking about.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9363 on: January 13, 2022, 11:22:56 AM »
It is curious. I wonder if the Qanon's and normal ardent Trump supporters have disavowed DJT because of his super-pro vaccine stance. I mean, he is super-pro vaccine...as evidenced by his quotes...

Dear Republicans: Your favorite president wants you to get vaccinated

2021:

- February: 'Everybody, go get your shot”
- March: “I would recommend it to a lot of people that don’t want to get it and a lot of those people voted for me, frankly.”
- April: “The federal pause on the J&J shot makes no sense,” Trump said, adding: “Just six people out of the nearly 7 million who’ve gotten the Johnson & Johnson vaccine reported blood clots.”
- April: “I’m all in favor of the vaccine. It’s one of the great achievements, a true miracle, and not only for the United States. We’re saving tens of millions of lives throughout the world. We’re saving entire countries.”
- July: “I recommend you take it, but I also believe in your freedoms 100 percent.”
- August: “Now one thing: When you have the vaccine, people that do [get infected] — and it’s a very small number relatively, but people that do get it — get better much quicker,” Trump said. “And it’s very important to know. They don’t get nearly as sick, and they get better."
- August: “I recommend take the vaccines,” he said. “It’s good. I did it. Take the vaccines.”
- September: “The vaccines do work,” Trump said on a conservative talk-radio show. “And they are effective. So here’s my thing: I think I saved millions and millions of lives around the world.”

Not to mention, we all know he got the booster.

Here you are peddling inaccurate information again. Actually, he also said that he was against vaccine mandates:

> "Trump tells Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene he’s ‘100%’ AGAINST’ COVID-19 vaccine mandates"

He also said that young and healthy people should not get the vaccine:

> @1:33 "I don't think young healthy people should take it."

Those two compared and he almost sounds reasonable about it. A lot of people think that vaccine mandates are reprehensible and only people who need it should take it.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 12:12:33 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9364 on: January 13, 2022, 12:46:02 PM »
Here you are peddling inaccurate information again. Actually, he also said that he was against vaccine mandates:

> "Trump tells Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene he’s ‘100%’ AGAINST’ COVID-19 vaccine mandates"

He also said that young and healthy people should not get the vaccine:

> @1:33 "I don't think young healthy people should take it."

Those two compared and he almost sounds reasonable about it. A lot of people think that vaccine mandates are reprehensible and only people who need it should take it.

Stack isn’t misrepresenting Trump, he is decidedly pro-vaccine and pro-choice about whether or not to get the vaccine. You have posted many memes about pro-vaccine people being less than human, have said the vaccine is experimental and potentially genetic manipulation and right here are implying that Trump’s beliefs aren’t reasonable. Do you still support Trump, even though he has been so vocal about the benefit of the vaccine and strongly recommends people take it?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9365 on: January 13, 2022, 12:58:43 PM »
The idea that vaccine mandates are reprehensible and young and healthy people should not take the vaccine is  a position held more on the right than the left. If you aren't communicating that this is what Trump believes when repeating his vaccine support you are stating a lie for your political ends.

Many people on the right did get their older and unhealthy people vaccinated. They do think that it would provide benefit for them, and see the vaccine as saving millions of lives for certain catagories.The idea that the vaccine may be appropriate for some people is fairly common on the right, although I feel that even that moderate approach on the right is misplaced as well.

So my position at the moment is more to see the leftists who repeat this as duplicitous fiends than to find severe fault with Trump for asserting what many on the right generally hold.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 01:18:15 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Trump
« Reply #9366 on: January 13, 2022, 01:17:00 PM »
Why are you conflating being pro-vaccine with vaccine mandates?
Trump has been very clear that he believes the vaccine is effective and he has encouraged people to get vaccinated.
He's also been clear that it's up to the individual whether they get vaccinated, so he's not pro vaccine mandates.
That is not a contradiction and it's pretty much my position too.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9367 on: January 13, 2022, 01:36:34 PM »
Trump says to go get your shot [if you choose and decide to do so] [and dont do it if you're young and healthy]

The disclaimers there almost entirely nullifies the leftist message. Now we need to consider if we want to or if we're at risk. Trump may be recommending the vaccine, but not to everyone, and certainly doesn't want it mandated. It should be your choice if you want to take it or not, and if you think that you are in the risk category. The disclaimers makes
 the message into something many people on the right have been saying all along.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 01:43:34 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9368 on: January 13, 2022, 01:42:12 PM »
Trump says to go get your shot [if you want to] [and dont do it if you're young and healthy]

The disclaimers there almost entirely nullifies the leftist message. Now we need to consider if we want to or if we're at risk. Trump may be recommending the vaccine, but not to everyone, and certainly doesn't want it mandated. It should be your choice if you want to take it or not, and if you think that you are in the risk category. Pretty much what many people on the right have been saying all along.

No one has disagreed with this, why the deflection? Are you ok with Trump recommending an “experimental drug” that might be “genetically manipulating” people (your words)?

I’m totally fine with Trump’s position. How about you?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9369 on: January 13, 2022, 01:57:48 PM »
No one has disagreed with this

That's not the message by the leftist media. According to the leftist media:

- We MUST be vaccinated
- Everyone needs to be vaccinated, even the young and healthy
- Get vaccinated or get fired.
- Get vaccinated or you cant do x
- Vaccinate the children too; vaccines now available to eight year olds

Many have professed agreement with much of that here. People have had themselves vaccinated even though they were not at risk and have also gotten their pregnant girlfriends vaccinated. You may have a slightly different stance, but the mainstream message being put out  is quite different to what Trump is saying.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 02:01:18 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9370 on: January 13, 2022, 02:01:11 PM »
No one has disagreed with this

That's not the message by the leftist media. According to the leftist media:

We MUST be vaccinated

Everyone needs to be vaccinated, even the young and healthy

Get vaccinated or get fired.

Vaccinate the children too; vaccines now available to eight year olds

You may have a different stance, but the main message being put out is quite different to what Trump is saying.

You keep deflecting away from the conversation. We aren’t talking about left wing media, we are talking about Trump. Do you support him recommending a drug you consider to be experimental and potentially dangerous? Possibly in violation of the Nuremberg Codes, according to you?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9371 on: January 13, 2022, 02:09:01 PM »
I dont care that Trump says some things in favor of the vaccine. You seem to think that I care about what you do with your body and what free choices you make.

If I had to decide, however, I would suggest that you should take it too, and to keep getting the boosters. If it provides any benefit in immunity it will lower the risk of me getting covid, and also shoulders all of the health risks of the vaccine on to you.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 02:18:17 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9372 on: January 13, 2022, 02:25:14 PM »
I dont care that Trump says some things in favor of the vaccine. You seem to think that I care about what you do with your body and what free choices you make.

I know you are fine with bodily autonomy. Are you ok with Trump very vocally recommending a vaccine that you consider to be potentially dangerous? Is that moral to you?

Quote
If I had to decide, however, I would suggest that you should take it too, and to keep getting the boosters. If it provides any benefit in immunity it will lower the risk of me getting covid, and also shoulders all of the health risks of the vaccine on to you.

Again a deflection. It’s tough for you to answer something like this isn’t it?
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

Re: Trump
« Reply #9373 on: January 13, 2022, 02:37:30 PM »
I dont care that Trump says some things in favor of the vaccine.
Why not?
You keep posting about how experimental it is, how dangerous it could be, how ineffective it is. And here’s Trump saying the vaccine is safe and effective and recommending people have it. Isn’t that dangerous advice? Or are you wrong?
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9374 on: January 13, 2022, 06:43:05 PM »
Hey, here's something to stop the endless loop that is Tom avoiding answering a question.

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/13/1072765939/republicans-threaten-to-no-longer-participate-in-traditional-general-election-de

Short end of it: Republicans are pissy that the debate group (which is run by a republican) won't change their rules.  So they're gonna boycott it.

This may be good news for Democrats.  Or it'll be pointless.  But its not BAD news.

Either the debates matter and the republicans won't be part of it, thus won't get media coverage.
OR
the debates don't matter and this won't change anything.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline stack

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9375 on: January 13, 2022, 07:50:00 PM »
This is sort of not our first rodeo. Definitely different factors, especially considering there was actual fraud, unlike today, but just as divisive:

The ugliest presidential election in history: Fraud, voter intimidation and a backroom deal

Thus began the longest fought and closest presidential election in U.S. history. Much as President Trump is doing now, backers of Hayes, the governor of Ohio, charged the election was being stolen. The difference was that, unlike now, there was clear evidence of fraud and voter intimidation. The outcome in the tense, post-Civil War atmosphere not only decided a presidency but also led to nearly a century of racial segregation in the South...

Now, Democrats charged the election was being stolen from Tilden. House Democrats began a filibuster. Amid cries of “Tilden or blood,” one Washington newspaper reported on plans “to send a threatening and bellicose mob to the National Capital to see that the count is made according to their wishes.”

Then on March 2 — nearly four months after the election and just two days before Inauguration Day — Congress reached agreement. After heated debate, at 4:10 a.m. the president of the Senate formally announced that Hayes had been elected the 19th president by an electoral college vote of 185 to 184...

Tilden continued to maintain “the country knows that I was legally elected president.” Dissidents dubbed Hayes “His Fraudulency.”


It's just still kind of shocking that Trump is still stumping on a "Fraudulency" campaign without any evidence a full year+ after the election.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9376 on: January 13, 2022, 10:09:17 PM »
I dont care that Trump says some things in favor of the vaccine.
Why not?
You keep posting about how experimental it is, how dangerous it could be, how ineffective it is. And here’s Trump saying the vaccine is safe and effective and recommending people have it. Isn’t that dangerous advice? Or are you wrong?

Actually if you watch the video I linked earlier Trump appears to agree with the host that there are risks with the vaccine, which is why he states young and healthy people should not take it. It is incorrect that Trump thinks its entirely safe.

Ultimately it's down to you if you think that the risks outweigh the benefits.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 10:22:48 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9377 on: January 13, 2022, 11:20:14 PM »
I dont care that Trump says some things in favor of the vaccine.
Why not?
You keep posting about how experimental it is, how dangerous it could be, how ineffective it is. And here’s Trump saying the vaccine is safe and effective and recommending people have it. Isn’t that dangerous advice? Or are you wrong?

Actually if you watch the video I linked earlier Trump appears to agree with the host that there are risks with the vaccine, which is why he states young and healthy people should not take it. It is incorrect that Trump thinks its entirely safe.

Ultimately it's down to you if you think that the risks outweigh the benefits.

Wow, you’re pretty scared to say what you think. Cool story.
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Online xasop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9378 on: January 13, 2022, 11:54:14 PM »
I think something similar could very easily happen in other Western democracies - someone loses an election and doesn't like it, cries foul, and then all of a sudden a process once generally accepted as trustworthy is now incredibly controversial. That doesn't sound like a uniquely American problem to me.
At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, this is one reason why presidential systems suck. The point of democracy is to enable many views to be heard and debated, which a parliamentary system can achieve by allocating representatives in proportion to votes — in a sense, everybody "wins" by getting represented, whether or not their views are in the majority. In a presidential election, you instead have everyone vote for a single office, and so it is much easier for voters whose candidate is not elected to feel let down.

America is the most egregious example of a presidential system, at least among the world's functioning democracies, because of a combination of extreme polarisation and disproportionate media attention on the presidential election as compared with congressional elections. You will easily be able to find one that works better if you try. Likewise, you will be able to find examples of dysfunctional parliamentary systems.

Nevertheless, I believe that a parliamentary system is less susceptible to this sort of thing than a presidential one, all else being equal, and most Western democracies are parliamentary or semi-presidential systems.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline crutonius

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9379 on: January 14, 2022, 12:09:44 AM »
Ironically a parliamentary system is what we might be headed to in practice.

The delegates elect a president, the general election is really just a suggestion.  It's easy to picture republican controlled states just saying fuck it, we're appointing delegates that vote for our guy no matter what. 

As far as I can tell it would be completely constitutional to do so.