*

Offline Fortuna

  • *
  • Posts: 2979
    • View Profile
Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2015, 11:55:18 PM »
Obviously this has nothing to do with racism. It's just an excuse for people to destroy shit and beat people up. We should just air drop a bunch of game consoles and copies of Mortal Combat into Baltimore.

Also, I think it's hilarious that rioters end up destroying their own homes and then get angry that they live in shitholes. The vicious cycle continues.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 11:59:42 PM by Hollocron »

*

Offline Pete Svarrior

  • e
  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 16082
  • (◕˽ ◕ ✿)
    • View Profile
Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2015, 10:49:31 AM »
Coming with the same disclaimer as Tausami's Mother Jones article (i.e. I don't know how reliable the source is), this could be a very interesting turn of events if it happened to be true.

Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document says - The Washington Post

Can't say I believe that he did this to himself, but it's probably worth watching this space. Also, the comments section is hilarious:

Quote from: notstandinginline
Calm down! The Democrats have only been in charge of Baltimore for 67 years. Give them time to turn things around.
Quote from: mcafla
Too bad the largely Republican corporations shipped the jobs overseas for cheaper wages.
Quote from: JackBootedThug
Too bad the union-beholden Dems taxed the corporations to death, necessitating their move overseas just to remain competitive.

No, YOU did Baltimore!
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 11:33:52 AM by pizaaplanet »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

If we are not speculating then we must assume

*

Offline Pete Svarrior

  • e
  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 16082
  • (◕˽ ◕ ✿)
    • View Profile
Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2015, 11:33:11 AM »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

If we are not speculating then we must assume

*

Offline Lord Dave

  • *
  • Posts: 7675
  • Grumpy old man.
    • View Profile
Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2015, 11:59:42 AM »
Actually, forget what I just said. It's all because of the gays.

Texas GOP lawmaker: ‘What is going on in Baltimore’ is because of too many gay marriages - Raw Story
Which is odd since he says "one or two parent" households.  Which I agree with.  If a single person has to raise a child alone, its hard and often results in less time with the child.
Yet two gay people would be a two parent home.  So, he's in favor of gay marriage?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

*

Offline Tau

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 911
  • Magistrum Fallaciae
    • View Profile
Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2015, 02:50:48 PM »
Coming with the same disclaimer as Tausami's Mother Jones article (i.e. I don't know how reliable the source is), this could be a very interesting turn of events if it happened to be true.

Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document says - The Washington Post

Can't say I believe that he did this to himself, but it's probably worth watching this space. Also, the comments section is hilarious:

Quote from: notstandinginline
Calm down! The Democrats have only been in charge of Baltimore for 67 years. Give them time to turn things around.
Quote from: mcafla
Too bad the largely Republican corporations shipped the jobs overseas for cheaper wages.
Quote from: JackBootedThug
Too bad the union-beholden Dems taxed the corporations to death, necessitating their move overseas just to remain competitive.

No, YOU did Baltimore!

Interesting article. I'm not sure the prisoner would have been able to tell the difference between Gray hurting himself and getting hurt based on sound alone, but it's definitely possible.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

Saddam Hussein

Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2015, 02:56:50 PM »
Quote
police aiming more of their patrols at minority communities due to the higher crime rates there

I guess I'm failing to see how this is racist. If patrols are directed at neighborhoods with a higher crime rate than that has little to do with their race. Sure there is a correlation, but it's not direct racism. If white neighborhoods had a higher crime rate than police would focus on those areas, it's as simple as that. Which seems pretty non-discriminatory to me.

I agree, but nevertheless, the end result still cuts along racial lines and ultimately exacerbates the problem.  It would be nice if the whole issue could be simplified with pointing fingers and saying things like, "You're racist!" or "No you!" but the truth is too messy for that.  The Wire once pointed out a great example with laws against drinking in public.  The wealthier members of society are free to sit outside in their backyard or on their deck with a drink, but if the poorer members of society want to do something similar, they have to use their front steps, which technically puts them in public and in violation of the law.

*

Offline Tau

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 911
  • Magistrum Fallaciae
    • View Profile
Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2015, 03:26:43 PM »
Yeah, what Saddam said. Pizza has made fun of me for saying this in the past, and I understand why, but systematic racism is not always intentionally racist in nature. You don't need to have some KKK dickhead at the top cackling while coming up with new ways to oppress minorities for there to be systematic racism. Intention isn't the point. Having a villain to hate isn't the point. And as I said before the problem has more to do with socio-economics than it does with race, but as long as socio-economic classes correlate with race, it's still a race problem.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

*

Offline rooster

  • *
  • Posts: 4139
    • View Profile
Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2015, 03:54:22 PM »
But then it's not a law enforcement problem.

There's not too much that can happen now. Time would just have to sort things out. Like pizaa said, we can't just give out unfair advantages because they happen to be born poor. People need to work to put themselves in a better position. If they are unwilling to work, then things will remain this way and there's not much the government or law enforcement can do to help it.

Maybe ending the war against drugs and improving schools would help, but no one is really fighting for those issues when talking about race problems. Everything is just the "pigs'" fault.

*

Offline Pete Svarrior

  • e
  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 16082
  • (◕˽ ◕ ✿)
    • View Profile
Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2015, 04:00:26 PM »
but as long as socio-economic classes correlate with race, it's still a race problem.
Ah, I think you've just uncovered the core of our disagreement!

From my point of view, this is not a fair statement. Not all black people suffer from socio-economic disadvantages (even if we disagree on everything else, I think we can agree that Obama is not economically disadvantaged or socially isolated from American culture), and not all white people are safe from poverty, poor education, etc. I would therefore view calling it a race issue as a needless generalisation which detracts from finding actual solutions. It makes people focus on the wrong facet of the issue.

Maybe ending the war against drugs and improving schools would help, but no one is really fighting for those issues when talking about race problems.
This, a thousand times this.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 04:03:17 PM by pizaaplanet »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

If we are not speculating then we must assume

*

Offline Tau

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 911
  • Magistrum Fallaciae
    • View Profile
Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2015, 04:54:44 PM »
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm absolutely fighting for an end to the war on drugs and improving schools. For me everything is about education. Preventing terrorism, preventing gang violence, improving economic productivity and competitiveness, improving health, decreasing inequality, absolutely everything comes back to education.

But anyway, I think it's a bit more grey than 'is it a race problem or isn't it'. You're right, Pizza, that it's a massive over-generalization, but it's also a predictive one. As I said before, it seems like the racial disparities in socio-economic classes have real impacts on the view we view race. They make black people feel, subconsciously, inherently inferior to white people even if they aren't of a lower class. That's gonna contribute to learned helplessness and prevent people from escaping poverty. Similarly, even if the intention behind profiling is not racial in nature, the LEOs involved are going to learn to associate blacks with crime and so is the rest of society. That's how we end up with longer prison sentences for black people who commit the same crimes as white people, and racially motivated police brutality. All of this is evidenced by the various studies, some of which I linked in this thread, which show that LEOs are faster to categorize blacks as a threat and, depending on the circumstances, faster to shoot. We can't just ignore the racial elements of the socio-economic problems.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

*

Offline rooster

  • *
  • Posts: 4139
    • View Profile
Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2015, 05:25:12 PM »
But I think people are trying to work backwards.

They want people to stop discriminating based on color, but they still live in bad neighborhoods. Rather than just trying to change everyone's perceptions which are based on socio-economic reasons, we should change socio-economic disparities so that those perceptions are no longer based on anything concrete.

You can't destroy your town and hope to prove to people that you're a valuable and contributing member of society. You have to become a contributing member of society.

*

Offline Tau

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 911
  • Magistrum Fallaciae
    • View Profile
Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2015, 05:43:44 PM »
But I think people are trying to work backwards.

They want people to stop discriminating based on color, but they still live in bad neighborhoods. Rather than just trying to change everyone's perceptions which are based on socio-economic reasons, we should change socio-economic disparities so that those perceptions are no longer based on anything concrete.

You can't destroy your town and hope to prove to people that you're a valuable and contributing member of society. You have to become a contributing member of society.

Okay. So how do we change socio-economic disparities in such a way that the people currently dealing with them will some some improvement in their own lives before they die? Education will work eventually, but only if we actually work toward it (which we don't seem to be) and only over the course of generations. I think I can understand why someone would be prone to violence if you tell them "I know things are pretty shitty for you and everyone you love, but we're working on fixing the problem and your grandchildren will probably be a lot better off so really I don't see why you're complaining".

There's the personal responsibility aspect of it, like Pizza has said, but I'm skeptical of how much good spontaneous behavioral change can reasonably do on a large scale. Especially since you do have to have fairly exceptional to get your own rags-to-riches story, and you generally don't bring anyone outside your immediate family with you when you rise.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

*

Offline rooster

  • *
  • Posts: 4139
    • View Profile
Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2015, 06:02:23 PM »
Especially since you do have to have fairly exceptional to get your own rags-to-riches story, and you generally don't bring anyone outside your immediate family with you when you rise.
That's pretty sad that you'd think working hard, staying out of trouble, and saving money is an exceptional quality from a poor person. People work themselves up all the time. I'd say other minorities tend to do it better than blacks because they seem to understand personal responsibility better.

I don't have a lot of respect for people who destroy shops and others' livelihoods because they're angry that the government isn't taking care of them.

You're asking me how we can give people an immediate benefit to being poor and black. There isn't one. If you expect immediate results and then act like a violent child when you don't get them, you have no one to blame but yourself. It takes a lifetime of work to provide a better future.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 06:10:20 PM by rooster »

Rama Set

Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2015, 06:13:22 PM »
Ray Lewis has the right idea, although communicated in a very aggressive way.


Rama Set

Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2015, 06:16:32 PM »
Stephen A. Smith too:


*

Offline rooster

  • *
  • Posts: 4139
    • View Profile
Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2015, 06:17:38 PM »
I love seeing those reasonable and responsible people speak up.

Rama Set

Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2015, 06:19:22 PM »
I love seeing those reasonable and responsible people speak up.

I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not. 

*

Offline rooster

  • *
  • Posts: 4139
    • View Profile
Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2015, 06:22:26 PM »
I love seeing those reasonable and responsible people speak up.

I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not. 
I'm not. I think they have the right attitude and it's good to see them shame all the rioters damaging their own community.

*

Offline Tau

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 911
  • Magistrum Fallaciae
    • View Profile
Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2015, 08:06:14 PM »
Especially since you do have to have fairly exceptional to get your own rags-to-riches story, and you generally don't bring anyone outside your immediate family with you when you rise.
That's pretty sad that you'd think working hard, staying out of trouble, and saving money is an exceptional quality from a poor person. People work themselves up all the time. I'd say other minorities tend to do it better than blacks because they seem to understand personal responsibility better.

I don't have a lot of respect for people who destroy shops and others' livelihoods because they're angry that the government isn't taking care of them.

You're asking me how we can give people an immediate benefit to being poor and black. There isn't one. If you expect immediate results and then act like a violent child when you don't get them, you have no one to blame but yourself. It takes a lifetime of work to provide a better future.

... no. Why do you guys keep shoving stereotypical strawmanny liberal opinions down my throat? I asked how we can make a meaningful difference in a meaningful period of time. That's the extent of what I asked.

And yes, it does take a certain level of exceptionalness of rise out of poverty. Especially inner-city type poverty. It's a lot harder than 'keep your head down and make some money'. I think, and statistics seem to confirm, that we're currently in an equilibrium. Poverty is not going away and the racial disparities are not decreasing. Clearly, we need to change something, and I don't think judging poor people is gonna fix anything. We've already been doing that for centuries.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

*

Offline Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8582
    • View Profile
Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2015, 08:11:58 PM »
No one has said any strawmans in this argument but you. It is becoming pretty clear that even you have no idea what your argument is, since the words you are saying so clearly don't match your apparent stance on the issue. Maybe you need to take a writing class.