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Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Fortuna on August 03, 2022, 05:20:11 AM

Title: Old Politicians
Post by: Fortuna on August 03, 2022, 05:20:11 AM
How do these practically zombified 70-80 year olds conduct political business? It's something I've been wondering for a long time. When my grandmother was 75, she was getting too old to do even basic tasks like cooking meals. Now we have mfs in office in the US that are 80+. How do they even travel the world, talk to high ranking officials in other countries and still do their duties that 40-50 year olds would probably get winded by? Are they just like avatars with aides that do literally everything for them behind the scenes? Maybe we should get some younger peeps in there who are a lot less likely to go into cardiac arrest at any moment.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: ohplease on August 03, 2022, 06:22:15 AM
I think they manage it physically as they have other folks to do all of life's chores (cooking, cleaning, driving, errands, etc) for them.  But I completely agree that arranging the system to encourage a continuous flow of new folks to enter would be really good.  We might manage that with term limit rules of various sorts but instead I like the idea of rank choice voting.  That way voters can cast a ballot for someone (like a newcomer) that they really want to get in but that they think is unlikely to win against the old-timers political machine while still having a backup of their preferred oldie .  It has made some progress in the US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked-choice_voting_in_the_United_States) but I'm not sure if that trend is growing or stalling out.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Rushy on August 03, 2022, 05:47:32 PM
How do these practically zombified 70-80 year olds conduct political business? It's something I've been wondering for a long time. When my grandmother was 75, she was getting too old to do even basic tasks like cooking meals. Now we have mfs in office in the US that are 80+. How do they even travel the world, talk to high ranking officials in other countries and still do their duties that 40-50 year olds would probably get winded by? Are they just like avatars with aides that do literally everything for them behind the scenes? Maybe we should get some younger peeps in there who are a lot less likely to go into cardiac arrest at any moment.

Having world class healthcare and a manicured diet does wonders for them. They also generally lived less labor-intensive lives and stay indoors, so the total toll taken on their bodies is less as well.

As for the politicians themselves, they're all ancient because it's ancient people voting in the primaries that typically get them to that position in the first place. The nature of population growth means there's (almost) always more young people than old, and yet people under 30 are by far the smallest voting bloc. So small it's almost a statistical error in some areas.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 03, 2022, 07:12:34 PM
It is because the pre-1950's generations are still considered by society to be the greatest generations. They are a hard-nosed, no-frills, people with traditional morals who tell it like it is. They won WWII and built the US into a super power and are considered to have established the gold standard in public policy. The era of the early and mid 1900's is also marked by extraordinary revolution from the telephone, automobile, airplane, radio, radar, computer, manufacturing, and medicine, which have only been refined and improved on today without fundamental revolution.

The list of achievements from the recent generations are comparably poor with some achievements in certain areas, but have not provided a comparative revolution to society to dignify the generation on. These later generations have only managed to continue or arguably degrade the status quo.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: stack on August 03, 2022, 07:44:18 PM
It is because the pre-1950's generations are still considered by society to be the greatest generations. They are a hard-nosed, no-frills, people with traditional morals who tell it like it is. They won WWII and built the US into a super power and are considered to have established the gold standard in public policy. The era of the early and mid 1900's is also marked by extraordinary revolution from the telephone, automobile, airplane, radio, radar, computer, manufacturing, and medicine, which have only been refined and improved on today without fundamental revolution.

The list of achievements from the recent generations are comparably poor with some achievements in certain areas, but have not provided a comparative revolution to society to dignify the generation on. These later generations have only managed to continue or arguably degrade the status quo.

So you're a part of the later generations that degrade the status quo?
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Lord Dave on August 03, 2022, 09:42:10 PM
It is because the pre-1950's generations are still considered by society to be the greatest generations. They are a hard-nosed, no-frills, people with traditional morals who tell it like it is. They won WWII and built the US into a super power and are considered to have established the gold standard in public policy. The era of the early and mid 1900's is also marked by extraordinary revolution from the telephone, automobile, airplane, radio, radar, computer, manufacturing, and medicine, which have only been refined and improved on today without fundamental revolution.

The list of achievements from the recent generations are comparably poor with some achievements in certain areas, but have not provided a comparative revolution to society to dignify the generation on. These later generations have only managed to continue or arguably degrade the status quo.

Living abroad, you see just how fucked up American propoganda is.
Americans love toting that they won WW2.  So much so that thry ignore literally everyone else who fought in it.  Hell, America wouldn't have won without fhe british canadian, french resistance, russian, and many other nations working together and dividing German forces.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: ohplease on August 03, 2022, 10:08:59 PM
...The era of the early and mid 1900's is also marked by extraordinary revolution from the telephone, automobile, airplane, radio, radar, computer, manufacturing, and medicine, which have only been refined and improved on today without fundamental revolution.

The list of achievements from the recent generations are comparably poor with some achievements in certain areas, but have not provided a comparative revolution to society to dignify the generation on. These later generations have only managed to continue or arguably degrade the status quo.
The digital revolution is all since 1950.  The first transistor was in 1947 but the first chip was 1958, Moore coined what we now call, his famous 2nd law in 1965.  The cell phone in your pocket has far more computing power than a room of equipment even from the 70s.  The internet grew out from the ARPAnet in the 70s.  We have the manufacturing revolution from 3D printing.  Automated low cost genetic sequencing is revolutionizing medicine.  Crop yields that remained stable from 1880-1950 have risen consistently since thus letting us (mostly) feed the world.  Of course there is space flight and its resulting vast increase in knowledge of the universe and our own planet as well as numerous commercial applications in farming, communications, mapping, news gathering, etc (but Tom thinks those are all false of course).  Likely more important than anything is the focus on sustainability.   The practice of burning fossil fuels without regard for the consequences to our environment that was so eagerly embraced in the first half of the 1900s which set the precedent for the 2nd half, has lead our civilization to the very brink of destruction.  If we manage to step back from the edge, which is not yet clear, it will be the greatest accomplishment in history. 
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: markjo on August 04, 2022, 12:39:30 AM
Americans love toting that they won WW2.  So much so that thry ignore literally everyone else who fought in it.  Hell, America wouldn't have won without fhe british canadian, french resistance, russian, and many other nations working together and dividing German forces.
Actually, it's the other way around.  The Brits, Canadians, etc., were losing both world wars until the US came to the rescue.   8)
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 04, 2022, 04:06:02 AM
...The era of the early and mid 1900's is also marked by extraordinary revolution from the telephone, automobile, airplane, radio, radar, computer, manufacturing, and medicine, which have only been refined and improved on today without fundamental revolution.

The list of achievements from the recent generations are comparably poor with some achievements in certain areas, but have not provided a comparative revolution to society to dignify the generation on. These later generations have only managed to continue or arguably degrade the status quo.
The digital revolution is all since 1950.  The first transistor was in 1947 but the first chip was 1958, Moore coined what we now call, his famous 2nd law in 1965.  The cell phone in your pocket has far more computing power than a room of equipment even from the 70s.  The internet grew out from the ARPAnet in the 70s.  We have the manufacturing revolution from 3D printing.  Automated low cost genetic sequencing is revolutionizing medicine.  Crop yields that remained stable from 1880-1950 have risen consistently since thus letting us (mostly) feed the world.  Of course there is space flight and its resulting vast increase in knowledge of the universe and our own planet as well as numerous commercial applications in farming, communications, mapping, news gathering, etc (but Tom thinks those are all false of course).  Likely more important than anything is the focus on sustainability.   The practice of burning fossil fuels without regard for the consequences to our environment that was so eagerly embraced in the first half of the 1900s which set the precedent for the 2nd half, has lead our civilization to the very brink of destruction.  If we manage to step back from the edge, which is not yet clear, it will be the greatest accomplishment in history.

None of that later technology is as revolutionary as the technologies from the beginning to mid 1900's. Most of what you cite originate from the time period I cited or even earlier. The 1950's already had radio communication and cell phones were just the natural progression of that technology rather than something truly revolutionary. The 1950's had plastic molding. 1940 Germany even allegedly had rockets capable of getting to space. Sputnik happened in the 1950's. The 1950's had computers. The internet and personal computing are one of the few new things that are revolutionary to society, but the 1950's had the analog equivalent of digital libraries, photoshop, microsoft office, online shops, and bulletin boards.

Genetic engineering is still in progress. The Moon Landing was supposed to be a test case for colonies on other worlds, but never came. The best theory about gravity in science comes from 1905.

Nothing truly and fundamentally revolutionary to human civilization has really occurred over the last 70 years. America has only lost power since it became a super power following WWII. It reached its peak and it was downhill from there. Recent generations are comparative failures compared to the pre-WWII generations.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Lord Dave on August 04, 2022, 04:27:37 AM
Americans love toting that they won WW2.  So much so that thry ignore literally everyone else who fought in it.  Hell, America wouldn't have won without fhe british canadian, french resistance, russian, and many other nations working together and dividing German forces.
Actually, it's the other way around.  The Brits, Canadians, etc., were losing both world wars until the US came to the rescue.   8)

Yes and it took all of them.
The US, were they alone, would have lost.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Lord Dave on August 04, 2022, 04:34:33 AM
Also Radio: 1890
Telephone: 1876
Automobile: 1886
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 04, 2022, 04:36:03 AM
Also Radio: 1890
Telephone: 1876
Automobile: 1886

The years they revolutionized society were from 1900-1950's. Radio, television, telephone, automobile, airplane, automated manufacturing, home appliances, all came together to fundamentally revolutionize civilization in a very extraordinary way that far overshadows anything that came after. I can hardly say the same about the internet and video games.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: xasop on August 04, 2022, 05:01:57 AM
The nature of population growth means there's (almost) always more young people than old
The developed world has had net population decline (if you discount immigration) for about half a century. The global population is growing due to high birth rates in developing countries, but they don't get to vote in the USA.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Lord Dave on August 04, 2022, 05:19:55 AM
Also Radio: 1890
Telephone: 1876
Automobile: 1886

The years they revolutionized society were from 1900-1950's. Radio, television, telephone, automobile, airplane, automated manufacturing, all came together to fundamentally revolutionize civilization in a very extraordinary way that far overshadows anything that came after. I can hardly say the same about the internet and video games.
The internet revolutionized society.  Radio was limited in range.  The internet is not.
Radio is one way communication: the internet is two way.
The internet has the entirity of human knowledge and wisdom.  Radio does not.

Also, smartphones, having a literal computer in your pocket, is also revolutionary. 

We now know that access to knowledge doesn't make people smarter.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Fortuna on August 04, 2022, 05:54:42 AM
Also Radio: 1890
Telephone: 1876
Automobile: 1886

The years they revolutionized society were from 1900-1950's. Radio, television, telephone, automobile, airplane, automated manufacturing, home appliances, all came together to fundamentally revolutionize civilization in a very extraordinary way that far overshadows anything that came after. I can hardly say the same about the internet and video games.

I'm pretty sure we'd all be better off just being farmers, hunters and crafters.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: ohplease on August 04, 2022, 06:42:08 AM
...The era of the early and mid 1900's is also marked by extraordinary revolution from the telephone, automobile, airplane, radio, radar, computer, manufacturing, and medicine, which have only been refined and improved on today without fundamental revolution.

The list of achievements from the recent generations are comparably poor with some achievements in certain areas, but have not provided a comparative revolution to society to dignify the generation on. These later generations have only managed to continue or arguably degrade the status quo.
The digital revolution is all since 1950.  The first transistor was in 1947 but the first chip was 1958, Moore coined what we now call, his famous 2nd law in 1965.  The cell phone in your pocket has far more computing power than a room of equipment even from the 70s.  The internet grew out from the ARPAnet in the 70s.  We have the manufacturing revolution from 3D printing.  Automated low cost genetic sequencing is revolutionizing medicine.  Crop yields that remained stable from 1880-1950 have risen consistently since thus letting us (mostly) feed the world.  Of course there is space flight and its resulting vast increase in knowledge of the universe and our own planet as well as numerous commercial applications in farming, communications, mapping, news gathering, etc (but Tom thinks those are all false of course).  Likely more important than anything is the focus on sustainability.   The practice of burning fossil fuels without regard for the consequences to our environment that was so eagerly embraced in the first half of the 1900s which set the precedent for the 2nd half, has lead our civilization to the very brink of destruction.  If we manage to step back from the edge, which is not yet clear, it will be the greatest accomplishment in history.

None of that later technology is as revolutionary as the technologies from the beginning to mid 1900's. Most of what you cite originate from the time period I cited or even earlier.
So when did digital electronics start?
The 1950's already had radio communication and cell phones were just the natural progression of that technology rather than something truly revolutionary.
This just show how little you know.  Celllphones are a fundamental departure from analog radio.
The 1950's had plastic molding.
If that is supposed to relate to 3D printing its nonsense as the entire point of 3D printing (in plastics or metals) is that there is no mold.
1940 Germany even allegedly had rockets capable of getting to space. Sputnik happened in the 1950's.
So does space flight exist or not Tom?
The 1950's had computers. The internet and personal computing are one of the few new things that are revolutionary to society, but the 1950's had the analog equivalent of digital libraries, photoshop, microsoft office, online shops, and bulletin boards.
Are you talking about actual brick and mortar libraries?   Hardly the same thing as a library in your pocket via your cell phone.
Genetic engineering is still in progress.
Of course but NOW not in 1900 and it has already revolutionized virus detection and vaccine construction.
The Moon Landing was supposed to be a test case for colonies on other worlds, but never came. The best theory about gravity in science comes from 1905.
Special Relativity published in 1905 as On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annus_Mirabilis_papers#Special_relativity) is not about gravity but about how space and time are merged.  General Relativity IS about gravity and was first published in 1915 (at which point the 1905 paper became commonly known as Special Relativity) and confirmed in several ways since (time dilation via atomic clocks at varying altitudes and gravity probe B).   Plus the significance of space flight is in the huge amount of knowledge we have and continue to gain on the cosmos and our planet, not the moon landing.  But are you now claiming the moon landing was real? Haven't you claimed it was all faked elsewhere on this site?  If the moon landing (and space flight in general) is real then the earth must be round, the two can not be separated.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: stack on August 04, 2022, 07:00:39 AM
One universal technological revolution should be composed of several sectoral technological revolutions (in science, industry, transport and the like).

We can identify several universal technological revolutions which occurred during the modern era in Western culture:[5]

1. Financial-agricultural revolution (1600–1740)
2. Industrial revolution (1780–1840)
3. Technical revolution or Second Industrial Revolution (1870–1920)
4. Scientific-technical revolution (1940–1970)
5. Information and telecommunications revolution, also known as the Digital Revolution or Third Industrial Revolution (1975–2021)
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 04, 2022, 12:40:12 PM
Points 3 and 4 represent the creation of fundamentally new technologies. The Digital Age in on point 5 represents people doing the same things they were already doing, but on a computer.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Rama Set on August 04, 2022, 12:56:33 PM
Points 3 and 4 represent the creation of fundamentally new technologies. The Digital Age in on point 5 represents people doing the same things they were already doing, but on a computer.

The semi-conductor and the transistor are fundamentally new technologies which spurred the digital revolution.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Lord Dave on August 04, 2022, 02:30:18 PM
Points 3 and 4 represent the creation of fundamentally new technologies. The Digital Age in on point 5 represents people doing the same things they were already doing, but on a computer.

The semi-conductor and the transistor are fundamentally new technologies which spurred the digital revolution.

Yep.
As a computer expert, I certify that "doing it on a computer" was only possible because of the transistor.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: stack on August 04, 2022, 05:12:35 PM
Points 3 and 4 represent the creation of fundamentally new technologies. The Digital Age in on point 5 represents people doing the same things they were already doing, but on a computer.

For someone to say that a personal computer or even the internet was not revolutionary is insane.

We went from the Harvard Mark I in the 40's:

(https://cdn.britannica.com/93/23593-050-99D22EC5/Harvard-Mark-I-Howard-Aiken-ballistics-calculations-1943.jpg)

To this, way more powerful, in the oughts:

(https://www.history.com/.image/c_limit%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1400/MTU4NDAzMTA4MTM5OTY4NDQ3/gettyimages-74961462.webp)

And that's not revolutionary?



Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Lord Dave on August 04, 2022, 05:28:32 PM
Know what's funny?

Tom would have actually added the Transistor and hailed it as the greatest had he actually read the date it was invented:1947.

But he chose to bash it.  Poor, poor tom, showing his bias yet again.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Roundy on August 04, 2022, 06:13:13 PM
Americans love toting that they won WW2.  So much so that thry ignore literally everyone else who fought in it.  Hell, America wouldn't have won without fhe british canadian, french resistance, russian, and many other nations working together and dividing German forces.
Actually, it's the other way around.  The Brits, Canadians, etc., were losing both world wars until the US came to the rescue.   8)

Yes and it took all of them.
The US, were they alone, would have lost.

Where are all these Americans claiming we single-handedly won WWII? I'm honestly not sure they exist. Everybody learned about the Axis and Allied Powers in school. Stop trying to make us look bad, Dave.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Lord Dave on August 04, 2022, 06:49:27 PM
Americans love toting that they won WW2.  So much so that thry ignore literally everyone else who fought in it.  Hell, America wouldn't have won without fhe british canadian, french resistance, russian, and many other nations working together and dividing German forces.
Actually, it's the other way around.  The Brits, Canadians, etc., were losing both world wars until the US came to the rescue.   8)

Yes and it took all of them.
The US, were they alone, would have lost.

Where are all these Americans claiming we single-handedly won WWII? I'm honestly not sure they exist. Everybody learned about the Axis and Allied Powers in school. Stop trying to make us look bad, Dave.

Know what I learned in school?  That we basically saved the day.  That we're the heroes.  Everyone else was so marginalized, Its hard to grasp they did anything at all.  Especially with all the movies and games about WW2
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: crutonius on August 04, 2022, 06:55:38 PM
Yeah.  It's unfortunate that Russia doesn't have a real film industry.  I would love to see ww2 war movies from their perspective.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Iceman on August 04, 2022, 07:08:16 PM
Yeah.  It's unfortunate that Russia doesn't have a real film industry.  I would love to see ww2 war movies from their perspective.

Jude Law, Ed Harris and some other people would like a word.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Roundy on August 04, 2022, 08:34:53 PM
Americans love toting that they won WW2.  So much so that thry ignore literally everyone else who fought in it.  Hell, America wouldn't have won without fhe british canadian, french resistance, russian, and many other nations working together and dividing German forces.
Actually, it's the other way around.  The Brits, Canadians, etc., were losing both world wars until the US came to the rescue.   8)

Yes and it took all of them.
The US, were they alone, would have lost.

Where are all these Americans claiming we single-handedly won WWII? I'm honestly not sure they exist. Everybody learned about the Axis and Allied Powers in school. Stop trying to make us look bad, Dave.

Know what I learned in school?  That we basically saved the day.  That we're the heroes.

I mean, we did, and we are, but that's besides the point. You didn't learn anything about Churchill in school? The crushing Russian victories over the Germans?

Maybe you just went to a really shitty school?
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: rooster on August 04, 2022, 08:59:50 PM
Yeaah, I don't think we single handedly won the war either and I went to school in the south. I mostly learned that we were assholes until it directly affected us.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Lord Dave on August 04, 2022, 09:21:49 PM
Americans love toting that they won WW2.  So much so that thry ignore literally everyone else who fought in it.  Hell, America wouldn't have won without fhe british canadian, french resistance, russian, and many other nations working together and dividing German forces.
Actually, it's the other way around.  The Brits, Canadians, etc., were losing both world wars until the US came to the rescue.   8)

Yes and it took all of them.
The US, were they alone, would have lost.

Where are all these Americans claiming we single-handedly won WWII? I'm honestly not sure they exist. Everybody learned about the Axis and Allied Powers in school. Stop trying to make us look bad, Dave.

Know what I learned in school?  That we basically saved the day.  That we're the heroes.

I mean, we did, and we are, but that's besides the point. You didn't learn anything about Churchill in school? The crushing Russian victories over the Germans?

Maybe you just went to a really shitty school?

A little about Churchill, and we learned that Russians retreated and burned everything so the Germans would be fucked come winter.  Thats... Basically it.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 04, 2022, 11:43:58 PM
Maybe you just went to a really shitty school?
It doesn't take that much effort to find an American sporting a "BACK-TO-BACK WORLD WAR WINNERS!!1!!!" t-shirt with a bald eagle carrying 5 guns in the background. They sell them at WalMart, and cheaply.

Perhaps you just live in an extremely sheltered part of the country? As a litmus test - how surprised were you by Trump's 2016 election?
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: stack on August 05, 2022, 12:28:40 AM
Banners too!
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81PZnSFSJAL._AC_SL1500_.jpg)
Only $9.99 on Amazon

However, the muscle tee is probably more 'Merica worthy...
(https://i.imgur.com/BJwDNu8.png)
Though at $20.99 I'm not sure it's affordable to most of Florida.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: rooster on August 05, 2022, 12:48:42 AM
haha I've never seen one of those shirts before. It doesn't surprise me, but it's not as prevalent as you guys are making it seem.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Fortuna on August 05, 2022, 05:23:30 AM
Yeah.  It's unfortunate that Russia doesn't have a real film industry.  I would love to see ww2 war movies from their perspective.

They'd just show a gazillion Russian army soldiers blasting away Germans with only a few token losses.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: BillO on August 05, 2022, 05:35:21 AM
As a litmus test - how surprised were you by Trump's 2016 election?
LOL!
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: BillO on August 05, 2022, 05:45:30 AM
How do these practically zombified 70-80 year olds conduct political business?

Sorry for being late to this game.

Age has nothing to do with it, unless you are old enough to be dead.  There is precious little difference between politicians and whores.  Politicians sell themselves for favors, whores sell them selves for money.  The whores come out ahead.  Political favors have the life span of a mayfly.  Money rules.  So politicians play their little games endlessly thinking they are doin' stuff.  They aren't.  It usually amounts to rhetoric and media ops.  Anyone from 8 to 88 can deal with it.  The real power is not in the public arena.  Let the conspiracies flow...
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: ohplease on August 05, 2022, 06:12:58 AM
Yeah.  It's unfortunate that Russia doesn't have a real film industry.  I would love to see ww2 war movies from their perspective.

They'd just show a gazillion Russian army soldiers blasting away Germans with only a few token losses.
Maybe, but maybe not.  Russian losses are well established as the most of any nation in either world war, its not even close.  That (from what little I know about it) is well incorporated into the Russian Heroic stories the nation (like all nations) tells itself.  In their case it is that they defeated the Germans by making a huge Russian sacrifice (and are "owed").
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 05, 2022, 03:13:51 PM
Points 3 and 4 represent the creation of fundamentally new technologies. The Digital Age in on point 5 represents people doing the same things they were already doing, but on a computer.

For someone to say that a personal computer or even the internet was not revolutionary is insane.

We went from the Harvard Mark I in the 40's:

(https://cdn.britannica.com/93/23593-050-99D22EC5/Harvard-Mark-I-Howard-Aiken-ballistics-calculations-1943.jpg)

To this, way more powerful, in the oughts:

(https://www.history.com/.image/c_limit%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1400/MTU4NDAzMTA4MTM5OTY4NDQ3/gettyimages-74961462.webp)

And that's not revolutionary?

Actually I did say it was revolutionary. I also said that it wasn't as important as the technologies that revolutionized society in the early to mid 1900's.

My main criticism was that the applications used are largely just digital replicas of things which already existed. People already had encyclopedias in their homes and had library passes. People already could compose documents, order things from catalogues, and send letters and notes to each other. Now you can do all of that on a computer with emojis. It provided a convenient platform, but people were still doing the same things they were doing before.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Lord Dave on August 05, 2022, 03:58:37 PM
Points 3 and 4 represent the creation of fundamentally new technologies. The Digital Age in on point 5 represents people doing the same things they were already doing, but on a computer.

For someone to say that a personal computer or even the internet was not revolutionary is insane.

We went from the Harvard Mark I in the 40's:

(https://cdn.britannica.com/93/23593-050-99D22EC5/Harvard-Mark-I-Howard-Aiken-ballistics-calculations-1943.jpg)

To this, way more powerful, in the oughts:

(https://www.history.com/.image/c_limit%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1400/MTU4NDAzMTA4MTM5OTY4NDQ3/gettyimages-74961462.webp)

And that's not revolutionary?

Actually I did say it was revolutionary. I also said that it wasn't as important as the technologies that revolutionized society in the early to mid 1900's.

My main criticism was that the applications used are largely just digital replicas of things which already existed. People already had encyclopedias in their homes and had library passes. People already could compose documents, order things from catalogues, and send letters and notes to each other. Now you can do all of that on a computer with emojis. It provided a convenient platform, but people were still doing the same things they were doing before.

If thats the criteria then, well, none of the tech you listed is revolutionary either.

Automobile: we already used horses.  Cars were just us moving faster and longer. 
Radio: we already could send messages wirelessly via sound waves.  So this was just doing it with another wave.
Airplanes: we already had hot air balloons.  Putting a fan on the front to move isn't a big change.
Etc...
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: garygreen on August 05, 2022, 04:35:05 PM
tom i hate to burst your bubble, but people born in the first half of the 20th century didn't actually invent books, libraries, and post offices. those things have been around for some time.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 05, 2022, 04:44:14 PM
If thats the criteria then, well, none of the tech you listed is revolutionary either.

Automobile: we already used horses.  Cars were just us moving faster and longer. 
Radio: we already could send messages wirelessly via sound waves.  So this was just doing it with another wave.
Airplanes: we already had hot air balloons.  Putting a fan on the front to move isn't a big change.
Etc...

Correct. On their own those technologies weren't that big of a change. But if you combine radio, television, telephone, automobile, airplane, automated manufacturing, home appliances, it becomes a very significant change to human society in that era. We were comparing that era to the modern era. I specified that the era and time period represented a period of new useful technologies and impactful change to society, as compared to recent years in which it has been less so.

tom i hate to burst your bubble, but people born in the first half of the 20th century didn't actually invent books, libraries, and post offices. those things have been around for some time.

I did not claim that the early 20th century invented language and the written word. The invention of language and the written word was arguably even more important than the revolutions to society between the early to mid 1900's.

Humanity has been making less important revolutions and inventions as time goes on.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: ohplease on August 05, 2022, 05:23:51 PM
Points 3 and 4 represent the creation of fundamentally new technologies. The Digital Age in on point 5 represents people doing the same things they were already doing, but on a computer.

For someone to say that a personal computer or even the internet was not revolutionary is insane.

We went from the Harvard Mark I in the 40's:

(https://cdn.britannica.com/93/23593-050-99D22EC5/Harvard-Mark-I-Howard-Aiken-ballistics-calculations-1943.jpg)

To this, way more powerful, in the oughts:

(https://www.history.com/.image/c_limit%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1400/MTU4NDAzMTA4MTM5OTY4NDQ3/gettyimages-74961462.webp)

And that's not revolutionary?

Actually I did say it was revolutionary. I also said that it wasn't as important as the technologies that revolutionized society in the early to mid 1900's.

My main criticism was that the applications used are largely just digital replicas of things which already existed. People already had encyclopedias in their homes and had library passes. People already could compose documents, order things from catalogues, and send letters and notes to each other. Now you can do all of that on a computer with emojis. It provided a convenient platform, but people were still doing the same things they were doing before.
People have been traveling around the planet since being able to walk so according to Tom being able to move yourself or goods anywhere within a few hours (or days for bulk items) is really just the same thing.  Obviously false.

The computer in your pocket can tell you where you are anywhere on the planet.  Even if you delude yourself to think that GPS does not utilize a network of satellites, you can not deny that it works.  That is revolutionary.

Having access to information without having to go to a library or for physical volumes to have to be written and published allows information not only to be universally accessible but also up to date.  That is revolutionary.   It of course also allows false information to be widely distributed.  All aspects of a revolution do not have to be beneficial to be revolutionary.

Not only access to information but access to services like micro banking is revolutionary.  Poor producers can not only sell their goods at prices that match global markets but accept payment safety without the risks of cash.

All that that does not even get to the original purpose of the mobile phone.  Reaching anyone anywhere is pretty revolutionary all by itself.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: stack on August 05, 2022, 05:46:49 PM
Humanity has been making less important revolutions and inventions as time goes on.

By what measure? Yours?

The Fourth Industrial Revolution: what it means, how to respond (https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/01/the-fourth-industrial-revolution-what-it-means-and-how-to-respond/)

The First Industrial Revolution used water and steam power to mechanize production. The Second used electric power to create mass production. The Third used electronics and information technology to automate production. Now a Fourth Industrial Revolution is building on the Third, the digital revolution that has been occurring since the middle of the last century. It is characterized by a fusion of technologies that is blurring the lines between the physical, digital, and biological spheres.

There are three reasons why today’s transformations represent not merely a prolongation of the Third Industrial Revolution but rather the arrival of a Fourth and distinct one: velocity, scope, and systems impact. The speed of current breakthroughs has no historical precedent. When compared with previous industrial revolutions, the Fourth is evolving at an exponential rather than a linear pace. Moreover, it is disrupting almost every industry in every country. And the breadth and depth of these changes herald the transformation of entire systems of production, management, and governance.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 05, 2022, 06:32:21 PM
Whenever someone brags about the Digital Age and muh amazing computers the arguments end up sounding like "The US Constitution: Now on LaserDisc!"
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Lord Dave on August 05, 2022, 06:50:57 PM
Whenever someone brags about the Digital Age and muh amazing computers the arguments end up sounding like "The US Constitution: Now on LaserDisc!"

You should have some respect.  After all, without the digital age, it would have been impossible for you to troll as many people as you do, daily, without physical effort.
Hell, cherry picking because everyting is digital and can be searched in a second is your bread and butter. 

So have some respect for the tech that gave you purpose.
Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on August 05, 2022, 07:18:02 PM
It is because the pre-1950's generations are still considered by society to be the greatest generations. They are a hard-nosed, no-frills, people with traditional morals who tell it like it is.

Yep, those were the good old days. You could beat your kids and beat your wife. Child molesters were never prosecuted. There were places where white people could be white with other white people. There were no homosexuals to corrupt the minds of young people. The Republicans were protecting us from the red menace.

Then the damn liberals came along. They legalized interracial marriage and now we have all kinds of racial tension and riots. They destroyed thousands of jobs for the hard-working folks in the tobacco industry. We have rampant homosexuality, shemales and transvestites. Then the tree huggers came along and destroyed our economy with their ecological bullshit and workplace safety crap.

Title: Re: Old Politicians
Post by: crutonius on August 05, 2022, 09:26:50 PM
Yeah.  It's unfortunate that Russia doesn't have a real film industry.  I would love to see ww2 war movies from their perspective.

Jude Law, Ed Harris and some other people would like a word.

The fact that I've never heard of this movie, I assume it's Enemy at the Gates, proves my point.  When I look at the number of dead from each country, ww2 looks almost like a fight between Germany and Russia with a bunch of other countries peripherally involved.