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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #60 on: August 13, 2020, 08:28:29 PM »
More testing may cause slower results for those who need them, we may need a percentage not a number, some people need to be prioritized rather than needing to test everyone who asks or mass-test. It's not a given that there inherently needs to be more testing. You were incorrect about what "no experts think".
« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 10:35:02 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline JSS

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #61 on: August 13, 2020, 08:29:13 PM »
Trump has been accused of sexual misconduct by well over a dozen women.
It continues to be the case that very few of these allegations went particularly far. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how many people make unsubstantiated accusations about the bad man you don't like. They remain unsubstantiated, and the decent thing to do is to presume Trump's innocence until these totally sincere women choose to present some evidence for their claims.

Innocent until proven guilty is how the legal system sees people, and that's how it should be.

It doesn't apply here though. Here the public is trying to decide who best to represent them and lead them. We have no way of forcing the truth, we can't hold a trial or issue a subpoena so we have to judge character with the evidence we have.

And we have a lot of evidence that Trump is a terrible person when it comes to women. How he treated his multiple wives, the things he's said, the multiple women who were paid off, all the allegations.

To me it's pretty clear the guy is a terrible person. Even if you just stick to the things he's done legally, they show his character to be horrible.

Obama was just as reviled, if not more by the right and we didn't see a dozen women accusing him or him paying them off.

President Clinton did have a number of credible accusers, and I don't think he was fit to be President either. He didn't break a law with what he did to that blue dress, but he certainly crossed a moral line.

A conviction for sexual assault isn't required for someone to be unfit to be a leader.  To me, Trump's behaviors even without the accusations are enough to give him the boot.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #62 on: August 13, 2020, 08:50:17 PM »
Let me clarify my position. I am not suggesting that Trump is a good person. I also agree that he's likely unfit for any position of leadership. It is, however, my opinion that (even in casual discussion, far from any legal implications) it's ethically questionable to call someone a rapist just because multiple people made allegations to that effect. My suggestion would be to call him a horrible misogynist, but to stop short of calling him a sexual abuser.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #63 on: August 13, 2020, 09:05:22 PM »
Quote
Obama was just as reviled, if not more by the right and we didn't see a dozen women accusing him or him paying them off.

- Obama wasn't a billionaire
- There wasn't a massive media hate campaign against Obama
- A single hate filled democrat organization can incite woman DT met with allure of a payoff; the one in this thread was a porn star who does stuff for money
- You inherently assume that conservative women are equally repugnant
- You are assuming that the theory of Michelle Obama being a man and Obama homosexual is untrue

Quote
President Clinton did have a number of credible accusers, and I don't think he was fit to be President either. He didn't break a law with what he did to that blue dress, but he certainly crossed a moral line.

Lying under oath is a crime.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 09:18:42 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #64 on: August 13, 2020, 09:08:21 PM »
- You are assuming that the theory of Michelle Obama being a man and Obama homosexual is untrue

Are you saying it is true? That MO has a pair of conkers between her(his) legs?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 09:15:11 PM by Toddler Thork »
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Offline JSS

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #65 on: August 13, 2020, 09:12:22 PM »
Let me clarify my position. I am not suggesting that Trump is a good person. I also agree that he's likely unfit for any position of leadership. It is, however, my opinion that (even in casual discussion, far from any legal implications) it's ethically questionable to call someone a rapist just because multiple people made allegations to that effect. My suggestion would be to call him a horrible misogynist, but to stop short of calling him a sexual abuser.

Rape is a worse crime than murder in my, and many peoples opinion, so I would have to agree it isn't a label one should use lightly.

So I can't claim it's a fact that he has sexually abused women, but it's certainly my personal belief he has.

I'll stick with horrible misogynist and suspected sexual abuser for what to call him.

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Offline JSS

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #66 on: August 13, 2020, 09:16:26 PM »
- You are assuming that the theory of Michelle Obama being a man and Obama homosexual is untrue

Wot?

Excuse me but even if that WAS true... what does it have to do with anything?

How is that even remotely related to what we have been discussing?

I find this particular right wing conspiracy theory to be in extremely bad taste and highly offensive on many levels.

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2020, 09:17:15 PM »
Rape is a worse crime than murder in my, and many peoples opinion.

What? How on earth did you get to that conclusion?

Who are these other peoples?

You can get over being raped. You aren't ever going to get over being murdered. What a stupid comment.
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Offline JSS

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2020, 09:23:00 PM »
Rape is a worse crime than murder in my, and many peoples opinion.

What? How on earth did you get to that conclusion?

Who are these other peoples?

You can get over being raped. You aren't ever going to get over being murdered. What a stupid comment.

Two guys get into a drunken bar fight and one dies, that's murder. That person in my opinion is less evil than someone who would grab a woman in a back alley and forcibly rape her.

You can have your opinion, I can have mine.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2020, 09:23:41 PM »
- You are assuming that the theory of Michelle Obama being a man and Obama homosexual is untrue

Wot?

Excuse me but even if that WAS true... what does it have to do with anything?

You implied that there were no sex rumors about Obama. There are. There are claims that he was involved in the gay bar and bathhouse scene, and that he is hiding it. It would follow that he's not around many women who can even claim to have met him. There is also one about Michelle Obama's sexuality, and that their children were really adopted. Not that there is anything wrong about gay or transsexual people.

May be non-credible, but you are listing out non-credible allegations, so there are some allegations you can look into.

Quote
I find this particular right wing conspiracy theory to be in extremely bad taste and highly offensive on many levels.

You can talk about the allegations that exist with Trump but I can't talk about the allegations that exist with Obama?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 09:44:44 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2020, 09:25:06 PM »
You can have your opinion, I can have mine.

You've got a 5 year old daughter. She is snatched and dragged to the woods. Would you prefer the guy rapes her and you get her back, or she gets murdered?

Its not even close. Murder is the ultimate crime in every civilised nation. Rape is always a lesser crime.

If I went to prison, I don't want to get raped. But I sure as hell don't want to get murdered. The two are not the same. Live goes on after rape.
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Offline JSS

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #71 on: August 13, 2020, 09:43:11 PM »
- You are assuming that the theory of Michelle Obama being a man and Obama homosexual is untrue

Wot?

Excuse me but even if that WAS true... what does it have to do with anything?

You claimed that there were no sex rumors about Obama. There are. There is a claim that he was involved in the gay bar and bathhouse scene, and that he is hiding it. It would follow that he's not around many women who can even claim to have met him. There is also one about Michelle Obama's sexuality, and that their children were really adopted. Not that there is anything wrong about gay or transsexual people.

May be non-credible, but you are listing out non-credible allegations, so there are some allegations you can look into.

I said no such thing.

I said there were no allegations by women, in the context of allegations of sexual abuse, and you know it.

My point was Obama was hated too, and we don't see a dozen women accusing him of sexual abuse. Plenty of people are hated, and don't have a dozen accusers. The fact that Trump does *IS* indeed evidence. You can't claim it's just because 'liberals' hate him, because there is plenty of hate to go around.

I'm glad you stated there is nothing wrong with being gay, because rumors like that are ALL about painting being gay as some terrible sin.  It's why people spread awful homophobic rumors like that in the first place.  I'm sad to see people spreading it here too.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #72 on: August 13, 2020, 09:44:40 PM »
I'll stick with horrible misogynist and suspected sexual abuser for what to call him.
Sounds fair to me. I'd point out that him being a suspected abuser is not a disqualifying factor in isolation, but it's not like it's the only thing going against Trump.
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Offline JSS

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #73 on: August 13, 2020, 09:47:24 PM »
You can have your opinion, I can have mine.

You've got a 5 year old daughter. She is snatched and dragged to the woods. Would you prefer the guy rapes her and you get her back, or she gets murdered?

Its not even close. Murder is the ultimate crime in every civilised nation. Rape is always a lesser crime.

If I went to prison, I don't want to get raped. But I sure as hell don't want to get murdered. The two are not the same. Live goes on after rape.

We are talking about two different things.

You are talking about the effects a crime has on the victim and their families.

I'm talking about the kind of evil you have to have in your heart to commit them.  I can imagine getting so pissed off I hit someone hard enough to kill them.  I can not imagine being so turned on that I hold someone down and rape them while they beg.  It's not absolute, you can find examples to go either way, but that's my view.  You have to be a truly evil person to commit violent rape.  You don't accidentally drag someone off to a bedroom and sexually assault them.  The act is very personal, very deliberate, and very evil, always.

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Offline AATW

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #74 on: August 13, 2020, 09:52:12 PM »
If Trump lies so much, there must be something that clearly shows deception. It is really rather absurd to claim that someone can constantly lie all day without being able to show this deception outside of your assumptions of whether he is correct or not.
Tom, you're doing that thing again. You do it about lots of things when you have "an opinion" about something and refuse to budge an inch no matter how clearly you're shown to be wrong. This is how you come across when you ask to be shown evidence contrary to what you believe



Trump lies all the time. He's caught out in the lie all the time. You either don't care or, worse, as that article I posted above suggests you have somehow trained yourself to not see it. You're like the downtrodden wife of a serial philanderer, pathetically "standing by your man" and just not able to let yourself see what's going on.

The mental gymnastics you go through to excuse or explain away his constant an obvious lies boggle my mind.
And you uniquely apply that to him, not Biden.

If you agree with Trump's policies and you like the fact that he does what he says he's going to do (or tries to) then fine. That's all fairly reasonable. That doesn't mean you have to turn a blind eye to the way he behaves. You can like his policies and also be frustrated by his compulsive lying and self-aggrandisement too, it's not a contradiction.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #75 on: August 13, 2020, 09:59:11 PM »
You can have your opinion, I can have mine.

You've got a 5 year old daughter. She is snatched and dragged to the woods. Would you prefer the guy rapes her and you get her back, or she gets murdered?

Its not even close. Murder is the ultimate crime in every civilised nation. Rape is always a lesser crime.

If I went to prison, I don't want to get raped. But I sure as hell don't want to get murdered. The two are not the same. Live goes on after rape.

We are talking about two different things.

You are talking about the effects a crime has on the victim and their families.

I'm talking about the kind of evil you have to have in your heart to commit them.  I can imagine getting so pissed off I hit someone hard enough to kill them.  I can not imagine being so turned on that I hold someone down and rape them while they beg.  It's not absolute, you can find examples to go either way, but that's my view.  You have to be a truly evil person to commit violent rape.  You don't accidentally drag someone off to a bedroom and sexually assault them.  The act is very personal, very deliberate, and very evil, always.

1) You are conflating the crime of murder with the lesser crime of manslaughter. There is a reason you get far less time in prison for manslaughter in every country on earth. Punching someone and them dying without your meaning to kill them is not the same as Myra Hindley and Ian Brady gutting children whilst they are still alive and recording the children crying out for their parents to save them. The Moors murderers got life. They got off on murder in the same way a rapist gets off on rape. But the victim is far worse off when being murdered. Its not the same.

2) Murder is also very personal. If I put my hands around your throat and watched the light go out in your eyes, the fear you would feel, the violation, the horror that in that moment I am taking your life and you will never think another thought. Your last moments on earth, suffering as I choke the life from you. I am literally taking everything from you. Everything. You'll never see anyone again. Never have another thought. Everything you dreamed of, never going to happen. Your family, bereaved. You can't therapy your way back from murder.


Consider this. If you are murdered, you could get raped afterwards. You wouldn't care about the rape. If you were raped, you'd be praying to God that the rapist didn't want to cover their tracks and murder you too. Murder trumps rape by a country mile. Your moral compass is out of whack. Its probably why you think evil thoughts and vote left.
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Offline JSS

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #76 on: August 13, 2020, 10:08:02 PM »
You can have your opinion, I can have mine.

You've got a 5 year old daughter. She is snatched and dragged to the woods. Would you prefer the guy rapes her and you get her back, or she gets murdered?

Its not even close. Murder is the ultimate crime in every civilised nation. Rape is always a lesser crime.

If I went to prison, I don't want to get raped. But I sure as hell don't want to get murdered. The two are not the same. Live goes on after rape.

We are talking about two different things.

You are talking about the effects a crime has on the victim and their families.

I'm talking about the kind of evil you have to have in your heart to commit them.  I can imagine getting so pissed off I hit someone hard enough to kill them.  I can not imagine being so turned on that I hold someone down and rape them while they beg.  It's not absolute, you can find examples to go either way, but that's my view.  You have to be a truly evil person to commit violent rape.  You don't accidentally drag someone off to a bedroom and sexually assault them.  The act is very personal, very deliberate, and very evil, always.

1) You are conflating the crime of murder with the lesser crime of manslaughter. There is a reason you get far less time in prison for manslaughter in every country on earth. Punching someone and them dying without your meaning to kill them is not the same as Myra Hindley and Ian Brady gutting children whilst they are still alive and recording the children crying out for their parents to save them. The Moors murderers got life. They got off on murder in the same way a rapist gets off on rape. But the victim is far worse off when being murdered. Its not the same.

2) Murder is also very personal. If I put my hands around your throat and watched the light go out in your eyes, the fear you would feel, the violation, the horror that in that moment I am taking your life and you will never think another thought. Your last moments on earth, suffering as I choke the life from you. I am literally taking everything from you. Everything. You'll never see anyone again. Never have another thought. Everything you dreamed of, never going to happen. Your family, bereaved. You can't therapy your way back from murder.


Consider this. If you are murdered, you could get raped afterwards. You wouldn't care about the rape. If you were raped, you'd be praying to God that the rapist didn't want to cover their tracks and murder you too. Murder trumps rape by a country mile. Your moral compass is out of whack. Its probably why you think evil thoughts and vote left.

Plenty of people commit suicide after being raped. For them, death is the better option.

We can come up with examples and counter examples all day.

In the end it's all feelings and opinions and nobody is going to change anyones mind here or prove one side right and the other wrong, so we can agree to disagree on this. 

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #77 on: August 13, 2020, 10:11:48 PM »
Fine. But having a weird sense of morality will effect how you feel about situations. It will effect how you vote. And make you vote for stupid libtard stuff. You probably should have gone to Sunday School.

Top 10 crimes ...
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honour thy father and thy mother.
Thou shalt not murder.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not steal.


Rape doesn't even pop the top 10. But murder is right there.
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Offline JSS

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #78 on: August 13, 2020, 10:23:48 PM »
Fine. But having a weird sense of morality will effect how you feel about situations. It will effect how you vote. And make you vote for stupid libtard stuff. You probably should have gone to Sunday School.

Top 10 crimes ...
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honour thy father and thy mother.
Thou shalt not murder.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not steal.


Rape doesn't even pop the top 10. But murder is right there.

Yeah, rape wasn't really considered much of a crime back when the Bible was written. Women were property in much of the world back then.

It wasn't even that big a deal 50 years ago.  It wasn't that long ago in the US that a man could not legally be charged with raping his wife, it just wasn't a crime. It wasn't even considered rape, just a man making sure his wife performed her duties properly.

So you seem fine with thinking stealing or swearing is a worse crime than rape. Don't you lecture me on my morality.

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #79 on: August 13, 2020, 10:36:42 PM »
My point is that throughout history murder is always a dreadful crime. A woman getting boned when she doesn't want it ... yeah, that's a new thing because they complain more these days and everyone is outraged about everything. I'm sure its never been nice for them, but these days they act like its the end of the world. I think much of this is them acting how they feel they should act. Not acting directly because of the ordeal. If it was treated like missing a bus and you got a bit of sympathy but not much, I'm sure most women would just move on from it within the same day. Unpopular opinion I'm sure ... but the seriousness of rape is a new thing and it should be questioned why.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 10:39:04 PM by Toddler Thork »
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