Empirical Validation of Perspective
« on: June 22, 2018, 06:03:24 PM »
Hey ya'll... I'm working on a video that discusses some different ideas about how perspective works, and how we can do simple experiments to figure out which ideas are correct and which are not.

I'd like to ask willing participants to take a photograph and record some measurements from it. I have a little questionnaire to ask what your ideas about perspective were before and after doing the experiment. The video would ideally focus on whether or not people who started off with different ideas about perspective arrive at the same conclusions after testing it for themselves.

You can participate completely anonymously if you want.

I would like to avoid any debate over which ideas are correct and which are not. I would prefer that nobody posts their answers here until everyone has had a chance to do the measurements on their own. The idea is to explore whether doing the empirical investigation on your own is a better way to find the truth (as opposed to reading about it online).

Anyone interested/willing to participate?

Here are some questions for before you take your measurements:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeLXshSjVkWswmdGUlh6YztQOk-woesW0MGXMRl2_U7uH4brg/viewform?usp=sf_link
And here is the description of how to take the measurements:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M_Qhcexuac2dsv4OzdbdnNFTY4F6dknQ42UMEpzXnno/edit?usp=sharing

To turn in your answers (without sharing them here right away), just PM me or email me at ICanScienceThat@gmail.com
If you'd like to arrange an alternative way to share your answers, feel free to post here telling me how to get them.

The goal of this experiment is to answer the question, "How far away is the vanishing point?" If you'd like to come up with a different experiment to answer that question, that would be great too! All ideas welcome.

(I had posted this on the other forum, but I have few responses so far. So I'm re-posting here hoping to get a few more.)

Offline SiDawg

  • *
  • Posts: 142
    • View Profile
Re: Empirical Validation of Perspective
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2018, 05:00:30 AM »
If this helps, below you can find the explanation for how perspective works, including the "distance of the vanishing point" from a mathematical perspective (ha!)

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=9513.0
Quote from: Round Eyes
Long range, high altitude, potentially solar powered airplanes [...] If the planes are travelling approx 15 miles about earth, that works out to around 2,200 mph, or Mach 3

Re: Empirical Validation of Perspective
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2018, 05:14:14 AM »
If this helps, below you can find the explanation for how perspective works, including the "distance of the vanishing point" from a mathematical perspective (ha!)

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=9513.0
That's a really great article. I presume you wrote that because you'd noticed a lot of people seem to have some different ideas about it. I was really hoping some people would want to learn the material by testing it themselves empirically.

So far, nopes.

Re: Empirical Validation of Perspective
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2018, 06:36:54 AM »
I didn't get much interest in the experiment sadly. Here's a video of my own results and the ones I got from Bobby Shafto.


Watch it and see if your expectations about perspective match up with experiments.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10665
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Empirical Validation of Perspective
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2018, 07:01:42 AM »
Here is my comment:

It's widely observable that overhead receding bodies move at a more constant pace into the horizon the higher they are. For an example imagine that someone is flying a jet into the distance at an illegal altitude of 300 feet. He seems to zoom by pretty fast when he is flies over your head, only slowing down when he is off in the far distance.

Now consider what happens when a jet flies over your head at 45,000 feet. At that altitude a jet appears to move slowly across the sky, throughout its extent, despite that it is traveling at the same speed as the previous plane. With greater altitude the plane seems to move more consistently across the sky. It does not zoom by overhead, only seeming to slow when in the far distance.

Your demonstration with legos successfully shows the low flying jet example, but it does not go further than that.

We've had this page in our Wiki for many years now: https://wiki.tfes.org/Constant_Speed_of_the_Sun
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 07:08:36 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline AATW

  • *
  • Posts: 6499
    • View Profile
Re: Empirical Validation of Perspective
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2018, 09:30:51 AM »
Here is my comment:

It's widely observable that overhead receding bodies move at a more constant pace into the horizon the higher they are. For an example imagine that someone is flying a jet into the distance at an illegal altitude of 300 feet. He seems to zoom by pretty fast when he is flies over your head, only slowing down when he is off in the far distance.

Now consider what happens when a jet flies over your head at 45,000 feet. At that altitude a jet appears to move slowly across the sky, throughout its extent, despite that it is traveling at the same speed as the previous plane. With greater altitude the plane seems to move more consistently across the sky. It does not zoom by overhead, only seeming to slow when in the far distance.

Your demonstration with legos successfully shows the low flying jet example, but it does not go further than that.

We've had this page in our Wiki for many years now: https://wiki.tfes.org/Constant_Speed_of_the_Sun

Actually correct, the rate of change of angular velocity of something higher will be slower than something lower.
It's obvious why from a simple diagram:



I've made a bit of a mess of that but it's pretty clear that the difference in angle of the red lines is much more marked than the blue lines.
BUT, there is still a difference in the blue lines and it's clear that the angular velocity will change no matter the height.
Ergo, that Wiki page is wrong. It claims that at some height there is no change in angular velocity. Not true.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

*

Offline Tumeni

  • *
  • Posts: 3179
    • View Profile
Re: Empirical Validation of Perspective
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2018, 09:50:12 AM »
It's widely observable that overhead receding bodies move at a more constant pace into the horizon the higher they are.

Who has observed this, and where is their data recorded?
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10665
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Empirical Validation of Perspective
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2018, 10:56:11 AM »
BUT, there is still a difference in the blue lines and it's clear that the angular velocity will change no matter the height.
Ergo, that Wiki page is wrong. It claims that at some height there is no change in angular velocity. Not true.

Good illustration. It shows the basic concept pretty clearly.

But you already know what I'm going to say. Where did the Ancient Greeks ever provide evidence for their perspective model?

Lets just agree not to have that conversation again for the 100'th time and agree that the Ancient Greek's Continuous Universe model is full of assumptions which have not been demonstrated.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 11:20:32 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline AATW

  • *
  • Posts: 6499
    • View Profile
Re: Empirical Validation of Perspective
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2018, 11:24:38 AM »
BUT, there is still a difference in the blue lines and it's clear that the angular velocity will change no matter the height.
Ergo, that Wiki page is wrong. It claims that at some height there is no change in angular velocity. Not true.

You already know what I'm going to say. Where did the Ancient Greeks ever provide evidence for their perspective model?

Lets just agree not to have that conversation again for the 100'th time and agree that the Ancient Greek's Continuous Universe model is full of assumptions which have not been demonstrated.
You are the one claiming that geometry somehow randomly breaks down at some distance. Where is your evidence?
Show us your empirical measurements of a high flying plane which maintains a consistent angular velocity.
The conversation will happen again and again until you provide some evidence of your claims.
You don't have any. You're just rationalising to try and explain something to shoehorn observations into your model when they clearly don't fit.

And hilariously in the other thread you are arguing that stars slow down as they approach the horizon.
So which is it?
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Re: Empirical Validation of Perspective
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2018, 11:25:35 AM »
Just go to Dubai, then to the surface of the Burj Khalifa building. Enjoy the sunset, then after it compelted, take a ticket to the very top of the same building then enjoy the sunset again.

It's that simple people. Earth is R, not F.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10665
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Empirical Validation of Perspective
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2018, 11:46:13 AM »
You are the one claiming that geometry somehow randomly breaks down at some distance. Where is your evidence?

No. You need to prove that the infinite perspective theory is right in the first place, and that it needs to be disproved.

You need to provide evidence for your claims.

Where are these hidden pockets of infinity? Can you point them out for us?

The fact that perspective lines converge is evidenced right there in reality. The horizon line isn't an "infinite distance away" and train tracks don't appear to merge at an infinite distance away. The reality of finite perspective is on our side.

There is no evidence whatsoever for this infinity nonsense. None. You need to speculate that it exists, whereas we can see that the lines converge.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 11:49:40 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline AATW

  • *
  • Posts: 6499
    • View Profile
Re: Empirical Validation of Perspective
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2018, 11:55:04 AM »
You are the one claiming that geometry somehow randomly breaks down at some distance. Where is your evidence?

No. You need to prove that the infinite perspective theory is right in the first place, and that it needs to be disproved
So you want me to do an experiment over an infinite distance? I don't know how that would work.
My evidence for my claims is every observation of a receding body.
Now where's the evidence for yours?

The rest of your post is you not understanding the limits of visual acuity, or pretending not to.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10665
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Empirical Validation of Perspective
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2018, 12:03:13 PM »
So you want me to do an experiment over an infinite distance? I don't know how that would work.
My evidence for my claims is every observation of a receding body.

You are claiming hidden pockets of infinity, so you should be prepared to somehow demonstrate it. Converging perspective lines is already demonstrated with observation.

As you are claiming that what we see is an "illusion" the burden is on you to demonstrate your concept.

The fact that there is nothing you can easily point to; no studies, examples, or other types of evidence, shows the weakness of the argument.

Offline edby

  • *
  • Posts: 1214
    • View Profile
Re: Empirical Validation of Perspective
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2018, 12:10:19 PM »
The fact that perspective lines converge is evidenced right there in reality.
Yes in pictures. Pictures are part of reality too.
Quote
The horizon line isn't an "infinite distance away"
Agreed, a finite distance away since the picture is a finite distance away.

Quote
.. train tracks don't appear to merge at an infinite distance away.
The lines in the picture that represent the train tracks do converge, yes. What is your point. The train tracks themselves do not converge at all, nor are they infinite. They are part of a finite railway system.
Quote
There is no evidence whatsoever for this infinity nonsense. None.
Correct. The lines on the picture actually do converge, on the screen or on the paper. The railway lines that they represent do not converge at all.

Case closed.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10665
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Empirical Validation of Perspective
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2018, 12:17:20 PM »
I'm not going to sit here all day asking you for evidence. You know very well that your argument is weak.

Offline edby

  • *
  • Posts: 1214
    • View Profile
Re: Empirical Validation of Perspective
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2018, 12:23:02 PM »
I'm not going to sit here all day asking you for evidence. You know very well that your argument is weak.
Evidence that perspective lines in pictures converge? You already provided such a picture in another post.

Let's take my first claim. I said that 'pictures exist in reality' 'pictures are a part of reality'. You want evidence for this? Please specify.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 12:26:06 PM by edby »

*

Offline AATW

  • *
  • Posts: 6499
    • View Profile
Re: Empirical Validation of Perspective
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2018, 12:51:03 PM »
You are claiming hidden pockets of infinity
I don't understand what that means.

Quote
As you are claiming that what we see is an "illusion" the burden is on you to demonstrate your concept.

I need to demonstrate to you that optical magnification can "unmerge" things which appear "merged" with the naked eye?
That objects which cannot be distinguished with the naked eye can be if you use binoculars or a telescope?
Really?

Quote
The fact that there is nothing you can easily point to; no studies, examples, or other types of evidence, shows the weakness of the argument.

You are making a claim about a consistent angular velocity of high altitude airplanes.
Where are your studies, examples or other types of evidence?
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10665
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Empirical Validation of Perspective
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2018, 01:06:25 PM »
I gave you an example. You agreed with the example. You then pulled the Ancient Greek perspective theory out to tell us something about how perspective operates or scales in the distance and basically shook your finger and pointed at an equation.

Very weak.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 04:43:53 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline edby

  • *
  • Posts: 1214
    • View Profile
Re: Empirical Validation of Perspective
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2018, 01:20:18 PM »
I gave you an example. You agreed with the example. You then pulled out the Ancient Greek perspective theory out to tell us something about how perspective operates in the distance and basically shook your finger and pointed at an equation.

Very weak.
Eh? What ANCIENT GREEK PERSPECTIVE THEORY are you talking about. The ancient Greeks had no theory of perspective, unless you can provide a citation to one. How many times??

All modern theories are based on assumptions about the propagation of light. If you have a theory about how light travels, then please tell us, but leave the ancient Greeks out of it. They thought that light travels from the eye to the object.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 01:22:34 PM by edby »

*

Offline Bobby Shafto

  • *
  • Posts: 1390
  • https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdv72TaxoaafQr8WD
    • View Profile
    • Bobby Shafto YouTube Channel
Re: Empirical Validation of Perspective
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2018, 02:07:33 PM »
Statement 1:
The fact that perspective lines converge is evidenced right there in reality.

Statement 2:
The horizon line isn't an "infinite distance away"...

There's the crux of the matter: where certain lines of perspective appear to converge is the cause of a horizon line on a flat earth. Has to be.

The reason why this is even an issue for you is that you need an explanation for a horizon line at a definite distance (H) on a flat surface; and given that the explanation for that horizon line is Perspective, it must be able to give a non-zero solution for H. It can't be ∞.

But if not ∞, then what is it? It should be calculable. Rowbotham never said, but from his explanation of Perspective and where H lies, I deduced that finite value to be height of eye level times the tangent of 1 arcminute. I can't remember if you agreed or ever even commented. I've never seen you give a finite solution for H. You only declare it's not infinite. That's funny, because we alleged ancient Greek dependents don't believe H is infinite either, but we do give finite values for distance to H without reliance on those ancient Greeks notions of infinite vanishing points.

So let's be clear and not conflate terms to confuse the issue.

The issue isn't whether or not "Greek Infinite Theory" is true or not. I don't need it to be true for a horizon to have a definite, non-infinite distance on a convex surface. Perspective is not the reason for the horizon on a convex surface.

The issue is what causes the appearance of a horizon, and how far away is it on a flat plane? If Perspective is the reason (or part of the reason) for a horizon line on a flat surface, then its YOU who needs for Perspective to solve the distance to the horizon question. Therefore, it's YOU who cannot tolerate the "Greek Infinite Theory."  I can tolerate either it's truth or fallacy because my calculation of distance to the horizon doesn't depend on it. Yours does, and it can't be ∞.

It's not up to me or anyone else to have to prove that lines of perspective converge at an infinite distance (although the video by ICanScienceThat does a good job of that) because our explanation for the horizon line doesn't depend on it. What needs to be proved is that horizon line is caused by Perspective.

So prove this.



Show us that the values for H match what we can observe. They're not matching with observation for me. The RE calculation (that don't rely on vanishing points being at an infinite distance) match reality.

You can start with "horizon always is at eye level", since it's a fundamental principle for H being at a finite distance in Perspective Theory.

... and train tracks don't appear to merge at an infinite distance away. The reality of finite perspective is on our side.

This is sleight of hand logic you use to shift the focus and the burden of proof.  If H (a finite point) is due to Finite Perspective, prove it. Calculate the finite distance at which train tracks converge and then measure it to see if it's correct. Calculate the finite distance to the horizon and then measure it to see if it's correct.

You don't get to declare it's correct by default until someone can prove that the ancient Greeks were correct. We don't need Greek Perspective truth to refute you. That's a bogus issue you've raised to insulate yourself from bearing the burden of proof yourself.

If H is finite, show me. I agree it's finite, but that's because I don't agree an infinite VP has anything to do with H. You need lines of convergence to coincide with H. I don't. You need ancient Greeks to be wrong. I don't. You say Perspective gives H a finite value. Fine. Prove it. Calculate a finite value for H using Perspective. Don't deflect by demanding that skeptics disprove the ancient Greeks. That doesn't protect you from having to defend yours (and Rowbotham's) Perspective explanation for finite H.

There is no evidence whatsoever for this infinity nonsense. None. You need to speculate that it exists, whereas we can see that the lines converge.
There is no evidence whatsoever for Perspective being the reason for a horizon line and why ships disappear behind it hull first or why the sun sets behind it bottom first.
There's no evidence whatsoever that the horizon line is always at eye level.
There's no evidence whatsoever for Perspective being the magic, ad hoc solution for any discrepancy between what is observed and what would be predicted to be observed on a flat surface.

If you want to claim Perspective gives finite distances for vanishing points, and that a point on the horizon line is one such finite distance, the calculate it. Predict it and then show that the calculated prediction is true. Don't hide behind ancient Greeks and offer vague, indefinite claims and demand it be disproved vice having to bear the burden of proving it. Show that Perspective works to produce a value for H that can be checked for accuracy. We do it all the time in RE, and never have to rely on lines of perspective converging at infinity.