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Offline xasop

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Volt Europa
« on: June 25, 2021, 09:37:18 PM »
I have been reading through Volt Europa's policies. They are a Europe-wide political party that sits with the Greens/EFA group in the European parliament.

I thought this deserved its own thread because the concept of a pan-European party is a new one. The existing EU parties are all loose alliances of national parties, whereas Volt is a European party with national chapters. They now exist in all 27 EU member states, plus the UK and Switzerland.

Aside from the usual Green politics, some of their more interesting policies are:
  • European federation;
  • enable the European parliament to propose legislation;
  • creation of a European public broadcaster;
  • establishment of an EU military;
  • EU-wide guaranteed minimum income;
  • in contrast to most Green parties, support for investment in nuclear power as a way of achieving emissions targets; and
  • in the UK, rejoin the EU.
So far, their greatest success was in the 2021 elections in the Netherlands, where Volt Nederland won 3 seats in the national parliament. But currently, they only have one MEP: Damian Boeselager of Volt Deutschland. You can see a report of his activities and watch his contributions to plenary debates.

I find their policy platform interesting and will consider voting for them in 2024, but more than that, I hope this is the first of many pan-European political parties. Europe could use some more cross-border cooperation and less rabid nationalism right now.
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Volt Europa
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2021, 07:49:14 AM »
So much authoritarianism.

Force all countries to part with sovereignty and become subservient states
New powers for themselves if they get elected
A state funded propaganda outlet to promote them
A military to force their opinions onto nations outside the EU
Sweeping socialism
Crushing of Germany's anti-nuclear movement that will see Germany shut their last nuclear plant next year - a remarkable achievement
Not respecting a national referendum that told them no

Why do you always latch onto the weirdos and oddballs?
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Offline xasop

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Re: Volt Europa
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2021, 08:10:01 AM »
So much authoritarianism.
I'm getting tired of pointing out that the EU is a democracy. They can't do anything unless people vote for them.

Force all countries to part with sovereignty and become subservient states
New powers for themselves if they get elected
A state funded propaganda outlet to promote them
A military to force their opinions onto nations outside the EU
The UK has all of those things. You want the EU to be just like the UK, remember?

Sweeping socialism
Calling any ideas you don't like "socialist" is not an argument. Milton Friedman, one of the most notable free market capitalists of the 20th century and an advisor to Margaret Thatcher, supported the idea of a guaranteed minimum income. Instead of throwing bad, scary words around, perhaps articulate what you don't like about it?

Crushing of Germany's anti-nuclear movement that will see Germany shut their last nuclear plant next year - a remarkable achievement
It would be far more remarkable, and better for the planet, if they were about to shut down their last coal plant instead.

Not respecting a national referendum that told them no
So don't vote for them? What kind of silly democracy do you live in where a fairly elected party can disrespect the will of the people?
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Volt Europa
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2021, 08:39:24 AM »
I'm getting tired of pointing out that the EU is a democracy. They can't do anything unless people vote for them.
Sure they can. If you don't vote for them, they just carry on anyway. Look at the turnout for Croatia. Consistently less than 30% of people vote in the Euro elections. Rather than deem the holders of power illegitimate, they get into power anyway.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/election-results-2019/en/turnout/
Most countries in the EU average less than 50% voter turn out for EU elections. No suggestion that they are illegitimate.

Force all countries to part with sovereignty and become subservient states
New powers for themselves if they get elected
A state funded propaganda outlet to promote them
A military to force their opinions onto nations outside the EU
The UK has all of those things. You want the EU to be just like the UK, remember?
Why do you pick all the radical parties? The ones with the most change. The most upheaval. The ones saying we should all be living exactly as we aren't? If you don't like how Europe is run, why are you in Europe? Can you not see how people in Europe might not like immigrants arriving and then participating in their elections to change their laws, culture and in this case, even end their country?

Calling any ideas you don't like "socialist" is not an argument. Milton Friedman, one of the most notable free market capitalists of the 20th century and an advisor to Margaret Thatcher, supported the idea of a guaranteed minimum income. Instead of throwing bad, scary words around, perhaps articulate what you don't like about it?
Puts more people into poverty. The value of a euro is a function of how available a euro is to the average person. If it takes an average person a week to earn a euro, you might be able to buy a PlayStation with one. If it takes a minute to earn a euro, you wouldn't even get a Mars bar for one.
If I have a million Euro, its only worth a lot if other people don't have many euros. It is the difference between the poorest people and the richest that determines your livelihood. Soooo ... if you raise the minimum wage from say 8 euro to 12 euro, all you managed was to ensure anyone who already earned 12 euro went from being someone with as much as 50% more wages than the poorest workers ... to being the poorest workers. You just swallowed a whole bunch of people and put them in the lowest pay bracket. Inflation increased to match all these new euros in circulation .. you made a few people richer for a short period. You made a lot of people poorer over the long run once inflation caught up. Its socialism. It makes everyone the same ... and the thing about socialism is that sameness is always putting as many people on the bottom rung of society as possible ... see Venezuela for a recent case study. When you raise the minimum wage ... all you achieve is to make even more people earn the least amount legally possible. It's a fucking nasty policy.

It would be far more remarkable, and better for the planet, if they were about to shut down their last coal plant instead.
But then their energy costs would go up and all the manufacturing advantages they have on nations like the UK simply vanish. Can't have that. If the British start manufacturing again, historically they are very good at it. No, manufacturing nations all burn coal for cheap energy ... that's why China is in no hurry to go green.
Fun fact: The Germans buy British coal because we have lots, burn it for cheap energy, and then use that cheap energy to ensure we can't compete at making cars and other components against them. They are dirty because they are greedy.
https://www.nytimes.com/1922/06/03/archives/germans-buy-british-coal-output-of-mines-in-the-ruhr-district.html
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Offline xasop

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Re: Volt Europa
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2021, 11:48:36 AM »
Sure they can. If you don't vote for them, they just carry on anyway. Look at the turnout for Croatia. Consistently less than 30% of people vote in the Euro elections. Rather than deem the holders of power illegitimate, they get into power anyway.
Your beloved Brexit referendum passed by a very slim majority with a turnout of 72%. What would the other 28% have said about leaving the EU? We will never know, and the people making Brexit happen aren't bothering to dwell on it, because we don't halt the progress of government just because some people decided not to express an opinion. The fact that you would even suggest that a voluntary decision not to vote is undemocratic is patently absurd. Nobody is stopping those people from voting.

Meanwhile, the EU is reaching out to people and trying to encourage more involvement in the democratic process with the ongoing Conference on the Future of Europe. As I'm sure you are aware given how often you talk about her, this was part of Ursula von der Leyen's election platform. I'm glad we have someone who cares so much for democracy in charge.

The UK has all of those things. You want the EU to be just like the UK, remember?
Why do you pick all the radical parties? The ones with the most change. The most upheaval. The ones saying we should all be living exactly as we aren't?
Don't think I haven't noticed that you didn't actually address my point and went straight into changing the topic. Just putting it here for posterity when you accuse me of going off topic later.

I assure you that the parties I am interested in are very far from radical. They are among the most liberal, centrist and pragmatic in the European parliament. If I wanted to be radical, I would vote for one of the far-left or far-right parties only interested in leaving the EU and destroying European unity.

If you don't like how Europe is run, why are you in Europe?
I do like how Europe is run. I would rather live in the EU than anywhere else on Earth. That's not the same thing as thinking it can't be improved further.

Can you not see how people in Europe might not like immigrants arriving and then participating in their elections to change their laws, culture and in this case, even end their country?
It's weird how you never complained when I immigrated to Australia and did the same thing. Why so selective?

Puts more people into poverty. The value of a euro is a function of how available a euro is to the average person. If it takes an average person a week to earn a euro, you might be able to buy a PlayStation with one. If it takes a minute to earn a euro, you wouldn't even get a Mars bar for one.
If I have a million Euro, its only worth a lot if other people don't have many euros. It is the difference between the poorest people and the richest that determines your livelihood. Soooo ... if you raise the minimum wage from say 8 euro to 12 euro, all you managed was to ensure anyone who already earned 12 euro went from being someone with as much as 50% more wages than the poorest workers ... to being the poorest workers. You just swallowed a whole bunch of people and put them in the lowest pay bracket. Inflation increased to match all these new euros in circulation .. you made a few people richer for a short period. You made a lot of people poorer over the long run once inflation caught up. Its socialism. It makes everyone the same ... and the thing about socialism is that sameness is always putting as many people on the bottom rung of society as possible ... see Venezuela for a recent case study. When you raise the minimum wage ... all you achieve is to make even more people earn the least amount legally possible. It's a fucking nasty policy.
Why are you rambling on about minimum wage? Do you know what a guaranteed minimum income is?

It would be far more remarkable, and better for the planet, if they were about to shut down their last coal plant instead.
But then their energy costs would go up
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Volt Europa
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2021, 12:08:12 PM »
Sure they can. If you don't vote for them, they just carry on anyway. Look at the turnout for Croatia. Consistently less than 30% of people vote in the Euro elections. Rather than deem the holders of power illegitimate, they get into power anyway.
Your beloved Brexit referendum passed by a very slim majority with a turnout of 72%. What would the other 28% have said about leaving the EU? We will never know, and the people making Brexit happen aren't bothering to dwell on it, because we don't halt the progress of government just because some people decided not to express an opinion. The fact that you would even suggest that a voluntary decision not to vote is undemocratic is patently absurd. Nobody is stopping those people from voting.
So at what point does a vote become illegitimate? If they decide to hold a vote on making bread the only thing you can eat in the EU, don't publicise it very well and then the 13 people who hatched the plot all vote to make bread the only food ... is it tough that other people didn't bother to vote? I mean they could have. At what point are you no longer legitimate. I'd say 70% is a good number of people ... less than 30% and I think you are taking the piss calling yourself an elected leader.

Meanwhile, the EU is reaching out to people and trying to encourage more involvement in the democratic process with the ongoing Conference on the Future of Europe. As I'm sure you are aware given how often you talk about her, this was part of Ursula von der Leyen's election platform. I'm glad we have someone who cares so much for democracy in charge.
No ... she fears that their cabal will be viewed by those they oppress as illegitimate if she can't find enough people to buy into it.

I assure you that the parties I am interested in are very far from radical. They are among the most liberal, centrist and pragmatic in the European parliament. If I wanted to be radical, I would vote for one of the far-left or far-right parties only interested in leaving the EU and destroying European unity.
So you picked a German party to vote for in the Netherlands. why don't you just move to Germany if you want to be ruled by Germans?
Quote from: https://mondediplo.com/outsidein/volt-technocratic-populists
Volt falls into the category of techno-populists that combine an anti-establishment appeal with a technocratic approach to politics as ‘problem solving’
I think that is modern day parlance for 'Hitler Youth'.

I do like how Europe is run. I would rather live in the EU than anywhere else on Earth. That's not the same thing as thinking it can't be improved further.
You aren't improving it. You are trying to tear it up and turn it into the USA.
 

Why are you rambling on about minimum wage? Do you know what a guaranteed minimum income is?
You are utterly financially illiterate. Giving people cash does not make them rich ... quite the opposite. See the Weimar Republic for more details.

Above, a few children in 1924 using millions of Deutschemarks as building blocks.

And here is a Zimbabwean bank note.


It would be far more remarkable, and better for the planet, if they were about to shut down their last coal plant instead.
But then their energy costs would go up

That's how Germany view the situation. What do you want me to do about it? Merkel is the one holding the lever.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2021, 12:20:51 PM by Toddler Thork »
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Offline xasop

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Re: Volt Europa
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2021, 12:46:19 PM »
So at what point does a vote become illegitimate? If they decide to hold a vote on making bread the only thing you can eat in the EU, don't publicise it very well and then the 13 people who hatched the plot all vote to make bread the only food ... is it tough that other people didn't bother to vote? I mean they could have.
Indeed, but that is a very poor description of how EU elections operate.

At what point are you no longer legitimate. I'd say 70% is a good number of people ... less than 30% and I think you are taking the piss calling yourself an elected leader.
You are not legitimate when you try to stop people voting freely, either by making it illegal, or by dissuading them with disinformation or intimidation. Turnout is an exceptionally poor indicator of this. North Korea consistently achieves well north of 99% turnout thanks to its, erm, strictly enforced policy of compulsory voting. Strangely, the Workers' Party of Korea always scores 100% of votes. I guess people must think they are doing a very good job.

No ... she fears that their cabal will be viewed by those they oppress as illegitimate if she can't find enough people to buy into it.
There's no winning with you, is there? When the EU's democracy has problems, it's because the Germans are putting themselves into positions of power over the wishes of the people. When they work to fix the problems, it's because they don't want to be seen as illegitimate. It doesn't matter what they do, you have convinced yourself that they are bad, so you're going to interpret it whichever way suits you.

So you picked a German party to vote for in the Netherlands. why don't you just move to Germany if you want to be ruled by Germans?
They are a European party. Volt is a German party in the same way that the Conservatives are a Staffordshire party.

Also, I didn't say I'm going to vote for them. Choosing now whom to vote for in three years would be ridiculous. A lot can happen in three years.

Quote from: https://mondediplo.com/outsidein/volt-technocratic-populists
Volt falls into the category of techno-populists that combine an anti-establishment appeal with a technocratic approach to politics as ‘problem solving’
I think that is modern day parlance for 'Hitler Youth'.
No, Thork, they aren't Nazis just because they are German and disagree with you.

You aren't improving it. You are trying to tear it up and turn it into the USA.
Your opinion doesn't count. You don't get a vote, because you voted not to have a vote. I do have a vote, so my opinion does count.

You are utterly financially illiterate. Giving people cash does not make them rich ... quite the opposite.
I wasn't aware that the point of welfare was to make people rich. Here I was thinking we were just trying to prevent poverty.

That's how Germany view the situation. What do you want me to do about it? Merkel is the one holding the lever.
Germans must all be schizophrenics with the number of conflicting stances you keep ascribing to them. They want to rule a united Europe, but they wouldn't want to pay for a united Europe; they are trying to take over, but if they took over they'd be unhappy about their own policies.

Have you considered that grouping people by nationality may not be the most useful approach in understanding the EU?
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Re: Volt Europa
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2021, 01:01:33 PM »
You are not legitimate when you try to stop people voting freely, either by making it illegal, or by dissuading them with disinformation or intimidation.
Maybe someone should tell Australia?
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_voting#:~:text=Australia%20%E2%80%93%20The%20Australian%20Electoral%20Commission,Strait%20Islander%20(Indigenous)%20Australians.
Compulsory voting, also called mandatory voting, is the requirement in some countries that eligible citizens register and vote in elections. Penalties might be imposed on those who fail to do so without a valid reason.

There's no winning with you, is there? When the EU's democracy has problems, it's because the Germans are putting themselves into positions of power over the wishes of the people. When they work to fix the problems, it's because they don't want to be seen as illegitimate. It doesn't matter what they do, you have convinced yourself that they are bad, so you're going to interpret it whichever way suits you.
The EU doesn't work. Its that simple. It was set up with 4 reasonably fairly equal powers to balance each other. France, UK, Italy and West Germany. Italy financially imploded and the Germans cheated by unifying with East Germany to create one enormous country that now dominates Europe. The wall was there for a reason. No, there cannot ever be a fair Europe when you have an enormous Germany in the middle of it. Now if there was a proposal to split Germany in two again, that's something I'd vote for. If not, I'm not interested because the answer to every question becomes "Whatever the Germans say".

So you picked a German party to vote for in the Netherlands. why don't you just move to Germany if you want to be ruled by Germans?
They are a European party. Volt is a German party in the same way that the Conservatives are a Staffordshire party.
Volt was founded in Germany by Germans and Germans hold all the top positions in that party. It should be avoided.

No, Thork, they aren't Nazis just because they are German and disagree with you.
Well they are two for two. Can we add in that they are a populist party advocating for a European empire, all politically defeated by a united German party?

You aren't improving it. You are trying to tear it up and turn it into the USA.
Your opinion doesn't count. You don't get a vote, because you voted not to have a vote. I do have a vote, so my opinion does count.
We're not saving you from the Germans next time.

I wasn't aware that the point of welfare was to make people rich. Here I was thinking we were just trying to prevent poverty.
Printing money doesn't alleviate poverty.

Germans must all be schizophrenics with the number of conflicting stances you keep ascribing to them. They want to rule a united Europe, but they wouldn't want to pay for a united Europe; they are trying to take over, but if they took over they'd be unhappy about their own policies.
That's how empire works. You rule people. And THEY pay you. Not the other way around. The Germans want to set the rules, and profit from the ensuing conditions ... fuck everybody else, they don't matter.
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Offline xasop

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Re: Volt Europa
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2021, 01:24:52 PM »
You are not legitimate when you try to stop people voting freely, either by making it illegal, or by dissuading them with disinformation or intimidation.
Maybe someone should tell Australia?
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_voting#:~:text=Australia%20%E2%80%93%20The%20Australian%20Electoral%20Commission,Strait%20Islander%20(Indigenous)%20Australians.
Compulsory voting, also called mandatory voting, is the requirement in some countries that eligible citizens register and vote in elections. Penalties might be imposed on those who fail to do so without a valid reason.
I wasn't aware that forcing people to vote constituted stopping them from voting. Truly wonderful, the mind of a Thork is.

The EU doesn't work. Its that simple. It was set up with 4 reasonably fairly equal powers to balance each other. France, UK, Italy and West Germany. Italy financially imploded and the Germans cheated by unifying with East Germany to create one enormous country that now dominates Europe. The wall was there for a reason.
No, that history is simply incorrect. The European Union was founded after the reunification of Germany. If you are talking about its predecessor, the European Economic Community, the UK was not a founding member; it didn't join until 15 years after the EEC was created.

Am I surprised that you're wrong again? Not really. Am I miffed that you are continuing to stuff my threads full of this drivel? Somewhat, yes.

No, there cannot ever be a fair Europe when you have an enormous Germany in the middle of it. Now if there was a proposal to split Germany in two again, that's something I'd vote for. If not, I'm not interested because the answer to every question becomes "Whatever the Germans say".
Splitting Germany in half would increase its total number of MEPs, give it two Commissioners instead of one, and give it two seats on the European Council instead of one. The same people would be casting the same votes, but they would have nearly twice the power. This is your proposal to reduce German influence?

Volt was founded in Germany by Germans and Germans hold all the top positions in that party. It should be avoided.
You may be right. Volt's policy on the UK rejoining the EU would mean you get a say again, and you consistently prove that the EU is better off without your dogmatically nationalist ideology.

Printing money doesn't alleviate poverty.
It's a good thing "printing money" isn't what's being suggested, then.

That's how empire works. You rule people. And THEY pay you. Not the other way around. The Germans want to set the rules, and profit from the ensuing conditions ... fuck everybody else, they don't matter.
How bizarre, then, that they keep expanding the EU into the Balkans and adding more non-German voters. I wonder what dastardly scheme they are concocting this time.
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Volt Europa
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2021, 01:34:59 PM »
You are not legitimate when you try to stop people voting freely, either by making it illegal, or by dissuading them with disinformation or intimidation.
Maybe someone should tell Australia?
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_voting#:~:text=Australia%20%E2%80%93%20The%20Australian%20Electoral%20Commission,Strait%20Islander%20(Indigenous)%20Australians.
Compulsory voting, also called mandatory voting, is the requirement in some countries that eligible citizens register and vote in elections. Penalties might be imposed on those who fail to do so without a valid reason.
I wasn't aware that forcing people to vote constituted stopping them from voting. Truly wonderful, the mind of a Thork is.
Forcing them to vote with the threat of penaties if they don't however ... is intimidation. Which according to you makes a vote illegitimate. So Aussie leaders are illegitimate.

No, that history is simply incorrect. The European Union was founded after the reunification of Germany. If you are talking about its predecessor, the European Economic Community, the UK was not a founding member; it didn't join until 15 years after the EEC was created.
Unifying Germany changed the balance of power. From that point, a united Europe is a terrifying prospect because you know who is going to end up running it.

You may be right. Volt's policy on the UK rejoining the EU would mean you get a say again, and you consistently prove that the EU is better off without your dogmatically nationalist ideology.
Imagine rocking up in the Netherlands and then instantly aspersing political views such as The Netherlands shouldn't exist and should be part of a German empire.

It's a good thing "printing money" isn't what's being suggested, then.
That's exactly what you are suggesting. Creating more money for the same amount of work.

That's how empire works. You rule people. And THEY pay you. Not the other way around. The Germans want to set the rules, and profit from the ensuing conditions ... fuck everybody else, they don't matter.
How bizarre, then, that they keep expanding the EU into the Balkans and adding more non-German voters. I wonder what dastardly scheme they are concocting this time.
Well, they aren't keen on adding Turkey because Turkey would have a similar number of votes to the Germans. But another small Balkans country is just another small Balkans country to steamroller.
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Offline xasop

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Re: Volt Europa
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2021, 01:50:15 PM »
Forcing them to vote with the threat of penaties if they don't however ... is intimidation. Which according to you makes a vote illegitimate. So Aussie leaders are illegitimate.
No. Read my entire sentence instead of cherry-picking one word. This is a cheap troll, even for you.

Unifying Germany changed the balance of power. From that point, a united Europe is a terrifying prospect because you know who is going to end up running it.
I would really like you to stop with this now. This is at least the fourth time you have ignored my previous replies to this point and made it again. I'm not going to type out the same reply anymore, and if you try to make this point over again I'm going to split your posts out again.

Imagine rocking up in the Netherlands and then instantly aspersing political views such as The Netherlands shouldn't exist and should be part of a German empire.
Imagine indeed. That would be almost as underhanded as making it up about somebody else because they have differing political views from you.

That's exactly what you are suggesting. Creating more money for the same amount of work.
Have you never heard of taxes? Do you just assume the government prints money for all of its expenses?

Well, they aren't keen on adding Turkey because Turkey would have a similar number of votes to the Germans. But another small Balkans country is just another small Balkans country to steamroller.
They aren't keen on adding Turkey because Turkey is a human rights dumpster fire with a prevailing ideology that doesn't support the EU ideals of democracy, rule of law and recognition of minorities.

Each individual country in the Balkans doesn't add many more voters, that is true. But even you are above this, Thork. What do you get if you add together lots of small populations? Take your time, I'll wait.
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Re: Volt Europa
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2021, 02:12:45 PM »
Forcing them to vote with the threat of penaties if they don't however ... is intimidation. Which according to you makes a vote illegitimate. So Aussie leaders are illegitimate.
No. Read my entire sentence instead of cherry-picking one word. This is a cheap troll, even for you.
A troll? No, I agree with you. Forcing people to vote with the threat of intimidation is not a legitimate way to claim power. The power of no vote should be respected. It is a valuable tool when parties collude and you don't want to endorse any of them. It is also something they fear. they don't really fear you just voting for a near identical party on the other side of the house.


This is at least the fourth time you have ignored my previous replies to this point and made it again.
I'm not ignoring your point. I don't agree with it. Is it ok that I write the opposite of what you think if I don't agree with you?

That would be almost as underhanded as making it up about somebody else because they have differing political views from you.
Bringing in immigrants and allowing them to vote on things the indigenous population does not believe in is a form of gerrymandering. Immigrants should never be allowed a vote. You choose to live in a place ... then be grateful and stop asking those who already live there to change for you. You can always go home if you don't like it.

That's exactly what you are suggesting. Creating more money for the same amount of work.
Have you never heard of taxes? Do you just assume the government prints money for all of its expenses?
That is exactly what governments do. If they need a trillion dollars for a stimulus package ... they'll just raise the debt ceiling. No extra taxes required.

They aren't keen on adding Turkey because Turkey is a human rights dumpster fire with a prevailing ideology that doesn't support the EU ideals of democracy, rule of law and recognition of minorities.
Oooohhh, people who are likely to vote for different values aren't welcome. I see. You only get added if you endorse the German liberal perspective. Otherwise you can do one, you human rights monster.

Each individual country in the Balkans doesn't add many more voters, that is true. But even you are above this, Thork. What do you get if you add together lots of small populations? Take your time, I'll wait.
A bunch of small countries that are rounded upon any time they step out of line. What are you expecting? They certainly aren't allowed to form a a resistance against the status quo.
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Offline xasop

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Re: Volt Europa
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2021, 02:30:37 PM »
A troll? No, I agree with you. Forcing people to vote with the threat of intimidation is not a legitimate way to claim power. The power of no vote should be respected. It is a valuable tool when parties collude and you don't want to endorse any of them. It is also something they fear. they don't really fear you just voting for a near identical party on the other side of the house.
My views on Australia's implementation of compulsory voting aren't relevant to my previous point because you can always spoil your ballot if you really don't want to express an opinion. Australia isn't forcing anyone to vote a particular way, or even to cast a valid vote at all.

I'm not ignoring your point. I don't agree with it. Is it ok that I write the opposite of what you think if I don't agree with you?
I didn't express what I "think", I explained to you that Germany's allocation of MEPs is significantly less than a majority. Anyone can verify this by reading about how the European parliament is elected. If you don't agree with how the EU's electoral process works, you'll have to provide a lot more than repeated, baseless assertions that Germany is in charge of the EU.

Bringing in immigrants and allowing them to vote on things the indigenous population does not believe in is a form of gerrymandering. Immigrants should never be allowed a vote.
Why are you so concerned with whether I vote in the EU as an immigrant, but not whether I vote in Australia as an immigrant? After all, you aren't a citizen of either one, so why does one matter more to you than the other?

You choose to live in a place ... then be grateful and stop asking those who already live there to change for you. You can always go home if you don't like it.
I can't just up and go home. My home country has deprived me of my citizenship, so I would need to immigrate there if I ever return. So, now the EU is my home. I don't need your approval for that.

That is exactly what governments do. If they need a trillion dollars for a stimulus package ... they'll just raise the debt ceiling. No extra taxes required.
Borrowing money isn't "printing money" either.

Oooohhh, people who are likely to vote for different values aren't welcome. I see. You only get added if you endorse the German liberal perspective. Otherwise you can do one, you human rights monster.
Yes, as a member of the EU, Germany shares the same liberal values as the other members of the EU. Are you just now beginning to understand why the countries of Europe found enough common ground to form a union?

A bunch of small countries that are rounded upon any time they step out of line. What are you expecting? They certainly aren't allowed to form a a resistance against the status quo.
They have more MEPs relative to their population than Germany, which I have now explained to you several times over, so I would like you to stop pretending you are unaware of it.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Volt Europa
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2021, 03:39:08 PM »
My views on Australia's implementation of compulsory voting aren't relevant to my previous point because you can always spoil your ballot if you really don't want to express an opinion. Australia isn't forcing anyone to vote a particular way, or even to cast a valid vote at all.
But they are forcing you to vote. with the threat of penalties if you don't. That doesn't sound like freedom to me.

I didn't express what I "think", I explained to you that Germany's allocation of MEPs is significantly less than a majority. Anyone can verify this by reading about how the European parliament is elected. If you don't agree with how the EU's electoral process works, you'll have to provide a lot more than repeated, baseless assertions that Germany is in charge of the EU.
We already went through this. MEPs give a veneer of democracy. They don't actually do much.

You get to vote for the people in the parliament ... in a very very small way. But the commission, central bank, auditors, judiciary ... its almost all German.
https://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-selmayr-problem-too-many-germans-in-top-jobs/
They have tucked the whole thing up. It doesn't matter who you vote for ... a German is in charge.

Bringing in immigrants and allowing them to vote on things the indigenous population does not believe in is a form of gerrymandering. Immigrants should never be allowed a vote.
Why are you so concerned with whether I vote in the EU as an immigrant, but not whether I vote in Australia as an immigrant? After all, you aren't a citizen of either one, so why does one matter more to you than the other?
Why should I care if millions of radicalised Afghans rock up and start voting either?  ::)
This is going to be a strange notion for you, but I'm not convinced someone from another country has your best interests at heart. When the cricket is on, there are British Indians and Pakistanis dancing in the street when England lose. More sinister, when the immigrants start voting for separate laws such as Sharia, or advantages such as 'positive discrimination'. To my mind, if you weren't born in a country, you should never be allowed to vote in it.

I can't just up and go home. My home country has deprived me of my citizenship, so I would need to immigrate there if I ever return.
Why are your problems now Europe's problems? Why does Europe have to offer a home to absolutely anyone who finds themselves with a problem?

Yes, as a member of the EU, Germany shares the same liberal values as the other members of the EU. Are you just now beginning to understand why the countries of Europe found enough common ground to form a union?
So the political ideology of Europe is on rails and cannot be changed. Thank you for the admission. Therefore no matter what you vote for, you are going to be ignored by all the other parts of the EU machinery. It's a tyrannical authoritarian project, not Utopia.

A bunch of small countries that are rounded upon any time they step out of line. What are you expecting? They certainly aren't allowed to form a a resistance against the status quo.
They have more MEPs relative to their population than Germany, which I have now explained to you several times over, so I would like you to stop pretending you are unaware of it.
What part of MEPs don't fucking do anything ... do you not understand?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2021, 03:43:44 PM by Toddler Thork »
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Offline xasop

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Re: Volt Europa
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2021, 04:13:50 PM »
But they are forcing you to vote. with the threat of penalties if you don't. That doesn't sound like freedom to me.
Irrelevant.

You get to vote for the people in the parliament ... in a very very small way. But the commission, central bank, auditors, judiciary ... its almost all German.
The Commission is not "almost all German". It consists of 27 Commissioners because there are 27 EU members. There is one Commissioner from each member state. That is always the case. How do you not know this?

Furthermore, the diagram you posted confirms what I previously said (and you denied), that the European Commission depends on the consent of the European Parliament.

It is unsurprising that the Central Bank, the Court of Justice and the Court of Auditors would have less democratic input than the others. You don't get to vote for who runs the Bank of England. However, your claim that they are all German is unsubstantiated and — given that you just made the same claim about the Commission — not especially credible.

They have tucked the whole thing up. It doesn't matter who you vote for ... a German is in charge.
Prior to von der Leyen, the last time a German was President of the European Commission was in 1967, 5 years before the UK joined the EEC. In the 29 years and 4 months between German reunification and Brexit, a German was "in charge" for a whopping 2 months. All of this is publicly available information you can look up on the Internet. There's no need to keep being wrong to get me to provide it for you.

Why are you so concerned with whether I vote in the EU as an immigrant, but not whether I vote in Australia as an immigrant? After all, you aren't a citizen of either one, so why does one matter more to you than the other?
Why should I care if millions of radicalised Afghans rock up and start voting either?  ::)
This is going to be a strange notion for you, but I'm not convinced someone from another country has your best interests at heart. When the cricket is on, there are Indians and Pakistanis dancing in the street when England lose. More sinister, when the immigrants start voting for separate laws such as Sharia, or advantages such as 'positive discrimination'. To my mind, if you weren't born in a country, you should never be allowed to vote in it.
A lot of words to not answer the question. Why didn't it bother you when I voted as an immigrant in Australia?

Why are your problems now Europe's problems?
What problems? I am a law-abiding, tax-paying resident with in-demand skills. What problems has Europe taken on?

Why does Europe have to offer a home to absolutely anyone who finds themselves with a problem?
It doesn't have to, but nevertheless, it did for me. If you want to change that, a good first step would be joining the EU. Then you would have a vote. Until then, I'd like you to stop meddling in our affairs.

So the political ideology of Europe is on rails and cannot be changed. Thank you for the admission. Therefore no matter what you vote for, you are going to be ignored by all the other parts of the EU machinery. It's a tyrannical authoritarian project, not Utopia.
No, that's not what I said. The world is not black-and-white. There is a middle ground between "we can never change our ideology" and "we'll adopt any radical new ideology with millions of supporters". This really isn't something that should need explaining in an adult conversation.

What part of MEPs don't fucking do anything ... do you not understand?
I've understood it perfectly well, you are simply incorrect, and the diagram you posted yourself confirms it.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Volt Europa
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2021, 04:38:58 PM »
We'll cut this short.

There are two votes in the EU.

1. a vote to leave it and to do that you vote domestically for a leave party until you get a referendum.
2. you vote for any MEP to be complicit in letting the EU do whatever they like. It doesn't really matter which one. They have no real power.

So vote for Volt Europa. Unless you are voting to leave, you aren't really voting at all. Nothing else is a choice that has any influence.
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Offline Action80

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Re: Volt Europa
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2021, 07:08:54 PM »
Calling any ideas you don't like "socialist" is not an argument. Milton Friedman, one of the most notable free market capitalists of the 20th century and an advisor to Margaret Thatcher, supported the idea of a guaranteed minimum income. Instead of throwing bad, scary words around, perhaps articulate what you don't like about it?
Unremarkably, this is just a flat out piece of garbage claim.

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Offline junker

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Re: Volt Europa
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2021, 12:02:01 AM »
Calling any ideas you don't like "socialist" is not an argument. Milton Friedman, one of the most notable free market capitalists of the 20th century and an advisor to Margaret Thatcher, supported the idea of a guaranteed minimum income. Instead of throwing bad, scary words around, perhaps articulate what you don't like about it?
Unremarkably, this is just a flat out piece of garbage claim.

How about making an argument instead of low-content hot take? At least make an effort. Warned.