[Roundabout]

Tom Bishop:
Unfortunately, we do not have a reliable space agency to tell us what is in space.

Actually we do, Tom. Tell you what. If you or another FE believer will come visit my university (I’m in the Midwest), I’ll give you $100 (but only one of you, please) on the sole condition that you talk with at least one of the following friends and coworkers about FET and your views on NASA and allow me to witness the conversation (I’m withholding their names because I don’t want to put them at risk for harassment):

(1) An astronaut-scientist who flew on one of the Space Shuttle missions, and who was very active in the Apollo program before that. For example, he was the astronaut on the ground who developed the instructions for constructing lithium hydroxide canisters for the Apollo 13 mission (the near-disaster), used to scrub CO2 from the air in the spacecraft.

(2) My boss, who designed the first space-borne radar system used on Skylab and who chaired a committee tasked with redesigning systems that had been used in the Mars Polar Lander (which crashed on the planet) for use in the Phoenix Mars Lander, which landed in a Martian polar region in 2008 and completed its mission successfully. Among other projects, he is currently working on NISAR, a joint satellite research project of NASA and the Indian Space Research Organisation, with a launch scheduled for December 2019.

(3) My other boss, the director of the lab where I work and a longtime friend. He is the current president of the IEEE Geoscience and Remote Sensing Society, the international organization of scientists and engineers who are working in this field, so he is very familiar with what is going on in this area. Much of remote sensing involves satellites.

(4) Another scientist and a graduate student, both currently doing research and design in satellite remote sensing, and who would probably kick in another $100 just to talk to a real flat-earther.

(5) Any of the hundreds of other people within a block of my office who are working on space-related research and design.

Just send me an email if you’d like to take me up on the offer. I’d like to encourage flat-earth believers to get up out of the armchairs where they are spinning their conspiracy theories, go see some space-related research first-hand, and meet some of the people who are doing it, or who have been there and back, and I’d love to listen to the ensuing conversations.

As a lagniappe, here is what AnswersInGenesis.org, the most influential Young-Earth Creationist website, has to say about moon landing hoaxers:

Some people deny that the U.S. Apollo moon landings ever occurred. Instead, they consider the landings part of a grand conspiracy to deceive the Soviets during the space race of the 1960s. This bizarre claim quotes a few details out of context, while hiding mounds of contrary evidence. Its supporters are guilty of the confusion and deception that they ascribe to others.

https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/far-out-claims-about-astronomy/
and
https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/moon/did-we-really-land-moon/

My hat's off to the FE conspiracy theorizers. You have to get up pretty early in the morning to out-nutter Answers in Genesis.

[Unsure101]

Clearly you are part of the conspiracy and will only use deception and mind-control tactics.
Tom, or any other FE proponent active on thus site, will never accept your offer for two reasons.
1, they don't actually believe that the earth is flat, this whole site is nothing more than a massive trolling activity.
2,they try to believe that the world is flat, but will not accept anything to the contrary for fear of being wrong.

Eager to see their responses...

[geckothegeek]

Tom Bishop:
Unfortunately, we do not have a reliable space agency to tell us what is in space.

Actually we do, Tom. Tell you what. If you or another FE believer will come visit my university (I’m in the Midwest), I’ll give you $100 (but only one of you, please) on the sole condition that you talk with at least one of the following friends and coworkers about FET and your views on NASA and allow me to witness the conversation (I’m withholding their names because I don’t want to put them at risk for harassment):

(1) An astronaut-scientist who flew on one of the Space Shuttle missions, and who was very active in the Apollo program before that. For example, he was the astronaut on the ground who developed the instructions for constructing lithium hydroxide canisters for the Apollo 13 mission (the near-disaster), used to scrub CO2 from the air in the spacecraft.

(2) My boss, who designed the first space-borne radar system used on Skylab and who chaired a committee tasked with redesigning systems that had been used in the Mars Polar Lander (which crashed on the planet) for use in the Phoenix Mars Lander, which landed in a Martian polar region in 2008 and completed its mission successfully. Among other projects, he is currently working on NISAR, a joint satellite research project of NASA and the Indian Space Research Organisation, with a launch scheduled for December 2019.

(3) My other boss, the director of the lab where I work and a longtime friend. He is the current president of the IEEE Geoscience and Remote Sensing Society, the international organization of scientists and engineers who are working in this field, so he is very familiar with what is going on in this area. Much of remote sensing involves satellites.

(4) Another scientist and a graduate student, both currently doing research and design in satellite remote sensing, and who would probably kick in another $100 just to talk to a real flat-earther.

(5) Any of the hundreds of other people within a block of my office who are working on space-related research and design.

Just send me an email if you’d like to take me up on the offer. I’d like to encourage flat-earth believers to get up out of the armchairs where they are spinning their conspiracy theories, go see some space-related research first-hand, and meet some of the people who are doing it, or who have been there and back, and I’d love to listen to the ensuing conversations.

As a lagniappe, here is what AnswersInGenesis.org, the most influential Young-Earth Creationist website, has to say about moon landing hoaxers:

Some people deny that the U.S. Apollo moon landings ever occurred. Instead, they consider the landings part of a grand conspiracy to deceive the Soviets during the space race of the 1960s. This bizarre claim quotes a few details out of context, while hiding mounds of contrary evidence. Its supporters are guilty of the confusion and deception that they ascribe to others.

https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/far-out-claims-about-astronomy/
and
https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/moon/did-we-really-land-moon/

My hat's off to the FE conspiracy theorizers. You have to get up pretty early in the morning to out-nutter Answers in Genesis.

And not just NASA, but all the other space agencies of all the other countries in the world.

[Tom Bishop]

The only one who would be in on it is the astronaut. The other people researching things like better radar systems could be performing legitimate research for military uses beyond their clearance level. NASA attracts the best and the brightest, and the military has constantly fought Congress to keep NASA alive to research technologies for its uses.

Over the years the military has used NASA as a resource to research hardened electronics, radio technologies, extremely strong light weight metals, robotics, jet engines... NASA has never been about honest science. It was fathered by the military-industrial complex as a show to the world that the US could put ICBMs into orbit and bomb foreign nations at the push of a button.

[CableDawg]

The only one who would be in on it is the astronaut. The other people researching things like better radar systems could be performing legitimate research for military uses beyond their clearance level. NASA attracts the best and the brightest, and the military has constantly fought Congress to keep NASA alive to research technologies for its uses.

Over the years the military has used NASA as a resource to research hardened electronics, radio technologies, extremely strong light weight metals, robotics, jet engines... NASA has never been about honest science. It was fathered by the military-industrial complex as a show to the world that the US could put ICBMs into orbit and bomb foreign nations at the push of a button.

I would think that you'd be one of the most vocal, visible, supporters of this "dishonest science".  It is, after all, because of this "dishonest science" that you've got an anonymous platform with which you can attempt to convince tens of people of your own "truth" about the world.

[Woody]

I still have trouble understanding why the focus seems to be mostly on NASA.

The conspiracy would have needed to start before NASA was even thought of as a possibility.

[Setec Astronomy]

I became aware of NASA being a complete and total fraud when I was still a ball-earther and believed FE was nothing more than a psy-op meant to fool people. I was a top-notch astronomy student in school and a voracious reader of hard-science books. Heh, I still have my 3 volumes of the Feynman Lectures on Physics.

As it happens, nearly all of the well-known flat-earth "proponents" are indeed fraudulent. I can't think of a single FE YouTuber who is not a shill (not to mention a Satanist) with an unstated mission to discredit the idea. This they do by putting forth nonsense "proofs" relating to crepuscular rays and similarly deliberate strawmen.

But back to NASA and the rest of the space agencies (that we commoners are meant to believe are different entities, just as we are meant to believe our governments are controlled by different entities... it's all part of maintaining a divide-and-conquer Hegelian dialectic) - they reveal themselves as frauds in their hoaxy astronaut videos all the time. The onboard the ISS videos are surely the worst offenders. Though, much like a magician's show, if you don't know to look for deception (and what sort of deception to look for), they can appear convincing. If anyone has a favorite ISS video that they can't figure out how it could be fake, please post it and so I can help point out things wrong with it if we are to assume it is actually real footage onboard a contraption in orbit.

[Ecthelion]

I became aware of NASA being a complete and total fraud when I was still a ball-earther and believed FE was nothing more than a psy-op meant to fool people. I was a top-notch astronomy student in school and a voracious reader of hard-science books. Heh, I still have my 3 volumes of the Feynman Lectures on Physics.

As it happens, nearly all of the well-known flat-earth "proponents" are indeed fraudulent. I can't think of a single FE YouTuber who is not a shill (not to mention a Satanist) with an unstated mission to discredit the idea. This they do by putting forth nonsense "proofs" relating to crepuscular rays and similarly deliberate strawmen.

But back to NASA and the rest of the space agencies (that we commoners are meant to believe are different entities, just as we are meant to believe our governments are controlled by different entities... it's all part of maintaining a divide-and-conquer Hegelian dialectic) - they reveal themselves as frauds in their hoaxy astronaut videos all the time. The onboard the ISS videos are surely the worst offenders. Though, much like a magician's show, if you don't know to look for deception (and what sort of deception to look for), they can appear convincing. If anyone has a favorite ISS video that they can't figure out how it could be fake, please post it and so I can help point out things wrong with it if we are to assume it is actually real footage onboard a contraption in orbit.

And I assume the perpetrators of this conspiracy are not human? Because I have certainly not seen any indications that humans can cooperate on such a scale for a long timeframe without internal fighting.

But it's good to know that it's all Hegel's fault again.

[Setec Astronomy]

And I assume the perpetrators of this conspiracy are not human?

A strange assumption, and one that is not indicated by the facts at all.

Because I have certainly not seen any indications that humans can cooperate on such a scale for a long timeframe without internal fighting.

What makes you think you would be privy to their infighting?

[Rounder]

Because I have certainly not seen any indications that humans can cooperate on such a scale for a long timeframe without internal fighting.

What makes you think you would be privy to their infighting?

I think the implication is that infighting would result in the conspirators no longer cooperating, and from there to outright conflict among them, in which case the whole conspiracy thing would fall apart.  And THAT, we would see.  If suddenly The Conspiracy was no longer acting in unison to deceive us all about the shape of the world.

[Ecthelion]

What makes you think you would be privy to their infighting?

In addition to what rounder has said, even if the infighting would not be visible, it would likely fraction the conspiracy into smaller entities. At which point we basically have countries or "power blocks" again, which is pretty much what the world actually looks like. What I know about human psychology suggests to me that the world would be splintered into factions which would cooperate on common goals yet disagree on details. Which is exactly what the world actually seems to be like. On the other hand, assuming a shadowy cabal in control of everything suggests a level of control and cooperation which is in opposition to both psychology and outside appearance, which gives the theory a rather low prior probability.

[Tom Bishop]

Because I have certainly not seen any indications that humans can cooperate on such a scale for a long timeframe without internal fighting.

What makes you think you would be privy to their infighting?

I think the implication is that infighting would result in the conspirators no longer cooperating, and from there to outright conflict among them, in which case the whole conspiracy thing would fall apart.  And THAT, we would see.  If suddenly The Conspiracy was no longer acting in unison to deceive us all about the shape of the world.

A lot of the technologies are subject to military classification. And the military does a very good job of keeping military secrets, secret. You would have a hard time finding classified military secrets online.

[rabinoz]

Because I have certainly not seen any indications that humans can cooperate on such a scale for a long timeframe without internal fighting.

What makes you think you would be privy to their infighting?

I think the implication is that infighting would result in the conspirators no longer cooperating, and from there to outright conflict among them, in which case the whole conspiracy thing would fall apart.  And THAT, we would see.  If suddenly The Conspiracy was no longer acting in unison to deceive us all about the shape of the world.

A lot of the technologies are subject to military classification. And the military does a very good job of keeping military secrets, secret. You would have a hard time finding classified military secrets online.

So what? What is the relevance?

[Tom Bishop]

So what? What is the relevance?

The military does a very good job of keeping plans to their advanced weaponry off the internet, for example. An organization able to keep a secret is not unheard of.

[Ecthelion]

The military does a very good job of keeping plans to their advanced weaponry off the internet, for example. An organization able to keep a secret is not unheard of.

Sure, but the claim wasn't that the secret couldn't be kept. The claim was that the amount of foresight and cooperation required would be super-human. Keeping some technical designs secret for a limited time (until the method becomes common knowledge) is not the same as secretly running the entirety of civilisation.

[Tom Bishop]

The military does a very good job of keeping plans to their advanced weaponry off the internet, for example. An organization able to keep a secret is not unheard of.

Sure, but the claim wasn't that the secret couldn't be kept. The claim was that the amount of foresight and cooperation required would be super-human. Keeping some technical designs secret for a limited time (until the method becomes common knowledge) is not the same as secretly running the entirety of civilisation.

How are they "secretly running the entirety of civilization"?

[Ecthelion]

How are they "secretly running the entirety of civilization"?

Look at Setec's post again. He claims a conspiracy across all world governments (and Youtubers).

[Tom Bishop]

How are they "secretly running the entirety of civilization"?

Look at Setec's post again. He claims a conspiracy across all world governments (and Youtubers).

You mean this? "But back to NASA and the rest of the space agencies (that we commoners are meant to believe are different entities, just as we are meant to believe our governments are controlled by different entities... it's all part of maintaining a divide-and-conquer Hegelian dialectic) - they reveal themselves as frauds in their hoaxy astronaut videos all the time."

I don't see an issue with that statmente. Check out the Chinese space walk:

[Ecthelion]

You mean this? "But back to NASA and the rest of the space agencies (that we commoners are meant to believe are different entities, just as we are meant to believe our governments are controlled by different entities... it's all part of maintaining a divide-and-conquer Hegelian dialectic) - they reveal themselves as frauds in their hoaxy astronaut videos all the time."

I don't see an issue with that statmente. Check out the Chinese space walk:

Yes, that is what I meant. Whether or not you take issue with the statement is beside the point. You asked why we were debating a conspiracy secretly running the world. There is your answer.

[Setec Astronomy]

The claim was that the amount of foresight and cooperation required would be super-human.

No, it might seem super-human to you, just as acrobats, mathematicians, and magicians might seem super-human to you.
They aren't, they just know things you don't and possess skills that you lack.