[Rounder]

I noticed your chart was only for western countries.

Yes, that was intentionally done, because that's where scientific advancements have had the most impact.

Psalm 90 in the Bible said that men lived 70 to 80 yrs which is what actuaries say people live to these days.

That verse doesn't necessarily mean that 70-80 year lives were typical, only that they were possible.  If you made it past childhood mortality, famine, disease, giving birth to your own children, etc.

Technology and science are not the same thing.

You may recall that I didn't say they were the same; I said that it is a "physical manifestation of what 'science' has made possible". Would you not agree that the two are linked to each other?  We couldn't have radio broadcast technology had not Marconi and Hertz (or someone else) done the science first; you would not have a battery in any of the dozens of devices in your home had not Volta and Daniell (or someone else) done the science first; no medical and dental X ray had not Curie and Roentgen (or someone else) done their science first, etc.

Rene Descartes...Science and calculus was invented by Christian scholars (it used to be the only people who could read, write and do math were officers of the church or members of religious orders.

Meanwhile, in the Arab world, all manner of math and science was being discovered as early as the end of the 1st century, hundreds of years before Descartes.

The printing press was invented by a Christian scholar.)

Who do you have in mind here?  Gutenberg is commonly credited as the inventor of the printing press, and he was a goldsmith by trade, not a scholar.

you should be ashamed of yourself for resorting to such cheap shots.  You just want to be hurtful.  Do you have any aptitude for remorse?

I wasn't trying to be hurtful, just pointing out that religious beliefs one way or the other seems to be quite beside the point here.  The vast majority of believers I have ever known, have had zero religious objection to a round earth.  But you're right about remorse, and I'll be trying to stay on point from now on.

I base my statement that science has reached a point of diminishing returns due to the fact that a lot of things  that science seemed to promise when I was growing up in the 60's:  space travel, people traveling by rocket pack, cure for cancer, artificial intelligence, lunar bases and many more things just haven't happened.  But we have more clever gadgets.  Bully for science!

Well, to be fair, those promises were more from the science FICTION realm, not from science.

[Love]

Hey, Rounder...I see you are still having a hard time thinking of anything interesting to say.

[Love]

Rounder---Longevity has more to do with indoor water closets and people taking our trash away than science.    I concede that physicians (not scientists) discovered germs and the importance of sanitary practices.   The same thing was said by Hippocrates circa 400 bc about the importance of cleanliness. ...the Bible also talks about the importance of good hygiene.   I noticed your chart was only for western countries.   Psalm 90 in the Bible said that men lived 70 to 80 yrs which is what actuaries say people live to these days.  I don't doubt that bad diet, squalor, quackery and lax hygiene caused the early demise of many.   But, there were still happy and healthy people who lived to old age; and they lived it in a cleaner more healthy environment.  Proving that science is not necessary for people to be happy and healthy.

Technology and science are not the same thing.  As to what science may be: to me science seems to mean different things to different people.  It is not really a subject with a hard definition. 

"Advent of science."   about the time of Rene Descartes.  Science and calculus was invented by Christian scholars (it used to be the only people who could read, write and do math were officers of the church or members of religious orders.  The printing press was invented by a Christian scholar.)  Sometime during the 1800's science became a military asset and the culture around it changed.  The military believes in secrecy, deception, strict chain of command and winning at all cost.  Science and scientists have lost their integrity; it went cheap and easy.

The most famous physician who ever lived was Hippocrates and he existed well before science and he was an effective physician by all accounts.



"Bully for you......"  A disingenuous comment and you should be ashamed of yourself for resorting to such cheap shots.  You just want to be hurtful.  Do you have any aptitude for remorse?

I base my statement that science has reached a point of diminishing returns due to the fact that a lot of things  that science seemed to promise when I was growing up in the 60's:  space travel, people traveling by rocket pack, cure for cancer, artificial intelligence, lunar bases and many more things just haven't happened.  But we have more clever gadgets.  Bully for science!

Science hasn't helped the human condition:  People are just as messed up as they ever were.  We still have to deal with death, terror, despair and grief.  Wars are certainly more dangerous and with the plethora of arms that our leaders have these days we are truly living under the sword of Damacles.  Modern man is a neurotic, self destructive pervert.  Science hasn't helped and may have caused harm.

I am not 'scornful' as you say!  I am disgusted!    I am not better than any man.  I don't make fun of people or throw cheap shots at them.   I treat people with respect.    I do attack ideas and philosophies and groups of people and so do you! 

I never asked for a computer or any of this modern stuff.  I had nothing to say about any of it.  I was born into this culture.   Do you know what a technology trap is?   You are in one so you might want to learn what it is.

"Triumph of technology"  built by the military so they could have an easier time killing people and destroying things.  I do not need the internet to be happy and healthy and neither does anyone else.  But, I will use it.  If I was in prison I would still eat the food and sleep in the bunk they gave me even if I didn't like the place...which I probably wouldn't.  No my parents didn't have the internet.  And somehow they got by just fine and had long fulfilling lives.

Got any more cheap shots for me.  When the history of the world is written the biggest disappointment of the human race will be the promise of science.

Scientists are cheap.  Einstein, Newton, whoever were/are not anything special.  If they wouldn't have come up with their discoveries someone else would have.

Why shouldn't I argue with strangers on the internet?  You are.  You and I...just a couple of nobodies on the internet killing a little time.   Have a good day!

Science has always been used as an military asset.

Romans expanded on Hippocrates work, they realized the value of veteran soldiers had for winning battles and put a bit of effort in healing wounded soldiers so they could fight again.  Look it up, a lot of the advances they made was driven by this.

Metallurgy advancement was driven by the desire to create weapons and armor to give an army an advantage on the battlefield and to counter advancements the other side had made.

The doctor that thought germs maybe the cause of infections and had the doctors and nurses scrub up before surgery was a military doctor.  Still today many of the advancement you see in the medical field comes from military funding.

That is just an example of some stuff throughout history.

You can not go to the corner store using a jet pack because it was tested and determined not to be a viable tool for the military.

You can find your way to the corner store using GPS because it was a viable tool for the military to use to target enemies and navigate with more precision than they could without it.

"All science is perception."  Plato  Science IMHO started with Rene Descartes.

"There once was a golden age because golden hearts beat in it.  If it returns it will scarcely be due to science."  Louise Imogen Guiney

 It was the investigation of religious scholars looking for intelligent design.  I doubt Newton, Descartes etc new how their discoveries would be used.   If they did I doubt they would have taken the time.  I am sure they would be disgusted with how their inventions are being used.


Would you sacrifice yourself on the altar of science?  I doubt you would.  You don't seem to mind that many soldiers (soldiers: the most pathetic victims of history) have been sacrificed to your god.  Not to mention all of the innocent victims who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.   People do not need science.  Science is a great disappointment.    Mary Shelley wrote Frankenstein and her themes were: science is dangerous and scientists are irresponsible. Both observations spot on.  Science is not required to put health in the body or joy in the heart.  We only need it now because without it we would be at the mercy of our enemies.   We have created a technology trap and the whose situation is dangerous and ugly and a sorry commentary on the human condition.

[Love]

I come in here, introduce myself, give some background on what I believe; I am being cordial.  I say "I don't know"  Which is true.  The only person to respond to me with any friendliness at all is a proponent of flat earth.   Good manners are more important than knowledge.   Why have civilization if people aren't going to be civil?  I have a right to attack ideas, philosophies, public figures and bodies.   And so do you.   But I am not the one who stared the cute little put downs; the mealy mouthed passive aggressive bigotry.  That would be you round Earth people.   You think you are noble and righteous crusaders for truth?  I say tell me another one.

[Love]

Oh, but please, more pedantry, more bragging about how smart and righteous you are.  Please tell about how you are trying to rescue, 'the children'!

[andruszkow]

Good manners do not come before knowledge in some cases, sorry. Christians will try to teach me that the Bible teaches moral and ethics. As if I as a non-believer know nothing about this. It's a part of being human. No religion can never patent this.

On the other hand, religious people kill in the name of their God. Where's the manners in that, and how does it benefit civilization?

Rethorical question.

[Woody]

Rounder---Longevity has more to do with indoor water closets and people taking our trash away than science.    I concede that physicians (not scientists) discovered germs and the importance of sanitary practices.   The same thing was said by Hippocrates circa 400 bc about the importance of cleanliness. ...the Bible also talks about the importance of good hygiene.   I noticed your chart was only for western countries.   Psalm 90 in the Bible said that men lived 70 to 80 yrs which is what actuaries say people live to these days.  I don't doubt that bad diet, squalor, quackery and lax hygiene caused the early demise of many.   But, there were still happy and healthy people who lived to old age; and they lived it in a cleaner more healthy environment.  Proving that science is not necessary for people to be happy and healthy.

Technology and science are not the same thing.  As to what science may be: to me science seems to mean different things to different people.  It is not really a subject with a hard definition. 

"Advent of science."   about the time of Rene Descartes.  Science and calculus was invented by Christian scholars (it used to be the only people who could read, write and do math were officers of the church or members of religious orders.  The printing press was invented by a Christian scholar.)  Sometime during the 1800's science became a military asset and the culture around it changed.  The military believes in secrecy, deception, strict chain of command and winning at all cost.  Science and scientists have lost their integrity; it went cheap and easy.

The most famous physician who ever lived was Hippocrates and he existed well before science and he was an effective physician by all accounts.



"Bully for you......"  A disingenuous comment and you should be ashamed of yourself for resorting to such cheap shots.  You just want to be hurtful.  Do you have any aptitude for remorse?

I base my statement that science has reached a point of diminishing returns due to the fact that a lot of things  that science seemed to promise when I was growing up in the 60's:  space travel, people traveling by rocket pack, cure for cancer, artificial intelligence, lunar bases and many more things just haven't happened.  But we have more clever gadgets.  Bully for science!

Science hasn't helped the human condition:  People are just as messed up as they ever were.  We still have to deal with death, terror, despair and grief.  Wars are certainly more dangerous and with the plethora of arms that our leaders have these days we are truly living under the sword of Damacles.  Modern man is a neurotic, self destructive pervert.  Science hasn't helped and may have caused harm.

I am not 'scornful' as you say!  I am disgusted!    I am not better than any man.  I don't make fun of people or throw cheap shots at them.   I treat people with respect.    I do attack ideas and philosophies and groups of people and so do you! 

I never asked for a computer or any of this modern stuff.  I had nothing to say about any of it.  I was born into this culture.   Do you know what a technology trap is?   You are in one so you might want to learn what it is.

"Triumph of technology"  built by the military so they could have an easier time killing people and destroying things.  I do not need the internet to be happy and healthy and neither does anyone else.  But, I will use it.  If I was in prison I would still eat the food and sleep in the bunk they gave me even if I didn't like the place...which I probably wouldn't.  No my parents didn't have the internet.  And somehow they got by just fine and had long fulfilling lives.

Got any more cheap shots for me.  When the history of the world is written the biggest disappointment of the human race will be the promise of science.

Scientists are cheap.  Einstein, Newton, whoever were/are not anything special.  If they wouldn't have come up with their discoveries someone else would have.

Why shouldn't I argue with strangers on the internet?  You are.  You and I...just a couple of nobodies on the internet killing a little time.   Have a good day!

Science has always been used as an military asset.

Romans expanded on Hippocrates work, they realized the value of veteran soldiers had for winning battles and put a bit of effort in healing wounded soldiers so they could fight again.  Look it up, a lot of the advances they made was driven by this.

Metallurgy advancement was driven by the desire to create weapons and armor to give an army an advantage on the battlefield and to counter advancements the other side had made.

The doctor that thought germs maybe the cause of infections and had the doctors and nurses scrub up before surgery was a military doctor.  Still today many of the advancement you see in the medical field comes from military funding.

That is just an example of some stuff throughout history.

You can not go to the corner store using a jet pack because it was tested and determined not to be a viable tool for the military.

You can find your way to the corner store using GPS because it was a viable tool for the military to use to target enemies and navigate with more precision than they could without it.

"All science is perception."  Plato  Science IMHO started with Rene Descartes.

"There once was a golden age because golden hearts beat in it.  If it returns it will scarcely be due to science."  Louise Imogen Guiney

 It was the investigation of religious scholars looking for intelligent design.  I doubt Newton, Descartes etc new how their discoveries would be used.   If they did I doubt they would have taken the time.  I am sure they would be disgusted with how their inventions are being used.


Would you sacrifice yourself on the altar of science?  I doubt you would.  You don't seem to mind that many soldiers (soldiers: the most pathetic victims of history) have been sacrificed to your god.  Not to mention all of the innocent victims who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.   People do not need science.  Science is a great disappointment.    Mary Shelley wrote Frankenstein and her themes were: science is dangerous and scientists are irresponsible. Both observations spot on.  Science is not required to put health in the body or joy in the heart.  We only need it now because without it we would be at the mercy of our enemies.   We have created a technology trap and the whose situation is dangerous and ugly and a sorry commentary on the human condition.

Well many people have been sacrificed in the name of my God and science used to aid in that pursuit to cleanse the world of unbelievers and people not believing the exact same things about that God.  So you are correct there.  Incorrect assuming who my God is.

I was just pointing that you were making it seem that science being used to kill people or aid in that pursuit is something relatively new.  I showed it has been going on for a long time.

I then offered my opinion why you or I can not get to work using a jet pack, but could navigate there using GPS. 

If something can be used to gain a military advantage it will be used.  Not sciences fault, but human natures fault.  Human natures fault that people also purposefully seek out ways to kill others.  Science is a tool used for discovery, how that tool gets used is collectively decided by people.

I think you need to add at least two more professions to the group you added scientist in. 

Engineers are more likely to be involved in using information from scientist to make a weapon of some sort then the scientist themselves.

Politicians/lawyers as you point out run things.  They are who drive and guide policy by various means.  They generally are the ones who point out the danger someone on the other side of the world is.  Then push for more spending in military R&D and procuring the devices that result from it.


The Golden Age you speak of is one thought up by philosophers and thinking about the ideal situations.
I would agree it would be ideal to live in a world where everyone does not suffer from need.

I am going out on a limb here, but judging from my past experience you are more likely not to support what they thought was ideal.  Their ideal is at the very least very socialist or common ownership.  My guess politically you side with the right.  If you support the right you surely do not truly believe in the ideal the people you mention in your post wrote about.

I could be wrong, but I am thinking you are very anti-science partly because that science does not fit your interpretation of a religious text.  Maybe it is because that science says things like evolution is real or the Earth is round. This usually indicates a Fundamentalist Christian which I have not run across any who lean to the left.

 

[Love]

Woody---I see you're back to being the good Woody. 

People are personally responsible for what they bring into this world.  You are wrong that scientist aren't responsible.  They bare more responsibility for the destruction their inventions cause than the rest of us.  Oppenheimer had the choice not to work on the Manhattan project.  They would have found someone else because brains are cheap.  But, he, the poor wretch we call Oppenheimer, would have still been better off.      What Oppenheimer did was akin to giving a loaded gun to a disturbed child except on a larger scale.   

You are engaging in apologetics which is an exercise in religious devotion.  And you say science isn't your god?  I don't believe you.

Before calculus people relied more in intuition and simpler ways of measuring.  Forging iron, for instance, couldn't really  be monitored by measuring parameters so much as judging by the color of the metal; or the smell or the sound.  A blacksmith doesn't need to be a scientist.  Science basically means knowledge but the word 'science' isn't really well defined.

I have no political stance.  I quit voting.  I have no trust for any authority outside of the Gospels.  All countries are guilty of human rights abuses, genocide and hegemony.   All governments are protection rackets.   The human race is divided between the lucky and the unlucky; politics doesn't have much to do with it.  It has always been such.  There is a class of man that will thrive no matter where he is what is going on around him.   Then there are those of us who never get a break.   

I like being contentious.  I don't deny it.  I am disgusted with the human condition and sometimes I let my resentment get the best of me.   But I wish no ill to come to anyone.   Even if I don't like them I still don't want anything bad to happen to them.  Hatred and rage?  Witnessing hatred and rage is traumatic.  I don't hate anybody.  I have no criminal record.  I have no record of violence or perversion.  I respect my neighbors property.  I have deference for the fairer gender.

Without liquor and drugs our society would crumble.  We are living in a dying culture.   Art and music are a joke.  Science is dead and also a dead end.  Depression and anxiety are the plagues of our time.  Science has not helped except for in a limited sense.  Like Frankenstein they have created a monster and they can't control it.

People do not need science to be happy or healthy.   They can live a long time without science.  Science is dangerous and scientists are irresponsible and you saying scientists aren't responsible is a cop out and shows you to be philosophically shallow.

Beauty is often mistaken for goodness as Tolstoy pointed out.  Science is a tool and as such is innocuous but holding science as a value and believing in it as the only way to discern truth is a religious belief.  It is pure hubris and just a way for people to stroke their egos and feel like they are smart.   And don't we all love it when our egos are exalted?!   But none of us is smart.  We all have aptitudes.   Some of us are gifted but the gifted are rare.   And there is no such thing as a gifted scientist.

We have been seduced but our lover doesn't really care for us.   She will use us and then leave us a broken shell with no heart to speak of.  It's going to get worse before it starts to get better.

 

[Ecthelion]

Woody---I see you're back to being the good Woody. 

People are personally responsible for what they bring into this world.  You are wrong that scientist aren't responsible.  They bare more responsibility for the destruction their inventions cause than the rest of us.  Oppenheimer had the choice not to work on the Manhattan project.  They would have found someone else because brains are cheap.  But, he, the poor wretch we call Oppenheimer, would have still been better off.      What Oppenheimer did was akin to giving a loaded gun to a disturbed child except on a larger scale.   

You are engaging in apologetics which is an exercise in religious devotion.  And you say science isn't your god?  I don't believe you.

Before calculus people relied more in intuition and simpler ways of measuring.  Forging iron, for instance, couldn't really  be monitored by measuring parameters so much as judging by the color of the metal; or the smell or the sound.  A blacksmith doesn't need to be a scientist.  Science basically means knowledge but the word 'science' isn't really well defined.

I have no political stance.  I quit voting.  I have no trust for any authority outside of the Gospels.  All countries are guilty of human rights abuses, genocide and hegemony.   All governments are protection rackets.   The human race is divided between the lucky and the unlucky; politics doesn't have much to do with it.  It has always been such.  There is a class of man that will thrive no matter where he is what is going on around him.   Then there are those of us who never get a break.   

I like being contentious.  I don't deny it.  I am disgusted with the human condition and sometimes I let my resentment get the best of me.   But I wish no ill to come to anyone.   Even if I don't like them I still don't want anything bad to happen to them.  Hatred and rage?  Witnessing hatred and rage is traumatic.  I don't hate anybody.  I have no criminal record.  I have no record of violence or perversion.  I respect my neighbors property.  I have deference for the fairer gender.

Without liquor and drugs our society would crumble.  We are living in a dying culture.   Art and music are a joke.  Science is dead and also a dead end.  Depression and anxiety are the plagues of our time.  Science has not helped except for in a limited sense.  Like Frankenstein they have created a monster and they can't control it.

People do not need science to be happy or healthy.   They can live a long time without science.  Science is dangerous and scientists are irresponsible and you saying scientists aren't responsible is a cop out and shows you to be philosophically shallow.

Beauty is often mistaken for goodness as Tolstoy pointed out.  Science is a tool and as such is innocuous but holding science as a value and believing in it as the only way to discern truth is a religious belief.  It is pure hubris and just a way for people to stroke their egos and feel like they are smart.   And don't we all love it when our egos are exalted?!   But none of us is smart.  We all have aptitudes.   Some of us are gifted but the gifted are rare.   And there is no such thing as a gifted scientist.

We have been seduced but our lover doesn't really care for us.   She will use us and then leave us a broken shell with no heart to speak of.  It's going to get worse before it starts to get better.

Pardon me for being personal, but this collection of platitudes sounds a lot like teenage angst to me.

It's easy to utter some broad ranging statements to give the appearance of widsom. It is a lot harder to actually acquire real knowledge about how things work. Have you ever tried to find out what "science" is and how it works? There have been philosophers who have shown what science does and how it works based on a systematic approach, you are simply ignorant of them. So the one who is suffering from hybris is you: You are the one who thinks he has all the answers without looking at what other people have thought and written down before him. You dare be judgemental of others, but what have you done that warrants such confidence?

[Chicken Fried Clucker]

Woody---I see you're back to being the good Woody. 

People are personally responsible for what they bring into this world.  You are wrong that scientist aren't responsible.  They bare more responsibility for the destruction their inventions cause than the rest of us.  Oppenheimer had the choice not to work on the Manhattan project.  They would have found someone else because brains are cheap.  But, he, the poor wretch we call Oppenheimer, would have still been better off.      What Oppenheimer did was akin to giving a loaded gun to a disturbed child except on a larger scale.   

You are engaging in apologetics which is an exercise in religious devotion.  And you say science isn't your god?  I don't believe you.

Before calculus people relied more in intuition and simpler ways of measuring.  Forging iron, for instance, couldn't really  be monitored by measuring parameters so much as judging by the color of the metal; or the smell or the sound.  A blacksmith doesn't need to be a scientist.  Science basically means knowledge but the word 'science' isn't really well defined.

I have no political stance.  I quit voting.  I have no trust for any authority outside of the Gospels.  All countries are guilty of human rights abuses, genocide and hegemony.   All governments are protection rackets.   The human race is divided between the lucky and the unlucky; politics doesn't have much to do with it.  It has always been such.  There is a class of man that will thrive no matter where he is what is going on around him.   Then there are those of us who never get a break.   

I like being contentious.  I don't deny it.  I am disgusted with the human condition and sometimes I let my resentment get the best of me.   But I wish no ill to come to anyone.   Even if I don't like them I still don't want anything bad to happen to them.  Hatred and rage?  Witnessing hatred and rage is traumatic.  I don't hate anybody.  I have no criminal record.  I have no record of violence or perversion.  I respect my neighbors property.  I have deference for the fairer gender.

Without liquor and drugs our society would crumble.  We are living in a dying culture.   Art and music are a joke.  Science is dead and also a dead end.  Depression and anxiety are the plagues of our time.  Science has not helped except for in a limited sense.  Like Frankenstein they have created a monster and they can't control it.

People do not need science to be happy or healthy.   They can live a long time without science.  Science is dangerous and scientists are irresponsible and you saying scientists aren't responsible is a cop out and shows you to be philosophically shallow.

Beauty is often mistaken for goodness as Tolstoy pointed out.  Science is a tool and as such is innocuous but holding science as a value and believing in it as the only way to discern truth is a religious belief.  It is pure hubris and just a way for people to stroke their egos and feel like they are smart.   And don't we all love it when our egos are exalted?!   But none of us is smart.  We all have aptitudes.   Some of us are gifted but the gifted are rare.   And there is no such thing as a gifted scientist.

We have been seduced but our lover doesn't really care for us.   She will use us and then leave us a broken shell with no heart to speak of.  It's going to get worse before it starts to get better.

I have said many times modern science is 2 percent science, 98 percent conclusion of whatever agenda is either paying for it or controlling it. Though I don't hate science, in its true form it has much use. You can't just blindly and broadly hate something, that is unhealthy, unproductive and only leads to damage to the one whom is hating and the one whom is hated. However, the increased damage goes to the one whom is hating.

Yes I agree people always replace a traditional god with untraditional ones. They may announce to be an athiest yet their new "god" is science, or the government ect. It takes as much faith to believe in evolution and orgins as it does any traditional god.

Yes voting is useless...we learned from the George Bush chad situation that it was getting difficult to control the polls. Then suddenly they switch to an electronic system... convenient.

Also if you are concerned that science will prove the Bible wrong, don't use that as a motivation. The books have been attacked since they were written and have held their own since. You don't need to defend truth, truth is its own defense.

In any case, none of this is justification for broad spectrum hate and anger towards any group. If I hated an entire group over the wrongs of some in that group. I should hate Christians, Jews, Muslims, scientist, athiest, engineers, pilots, maintenance men, politicians, doctors, nurses, programmers and continue going until I run out of populous. I should also hate myself, you, and every other person on this forum.

This is the foundation of how the greatest atrocities of human history begin, rather it for religious, political or other justifications.

[Love]

Woody---I see you're back to being the good Woody. 

People are personally responsible for what they bring into this world.  You are wrong that scientist aren't responsible.  They bare more responsibility for the destruction their inventions cause than the rest of us.  Oppenheimer had the choice not to work on the Manhattan project.  They would have found someone else because brains are cheap.  But, he, the poor wretch we call Oppenheimer, would have still been better off.      What Oppenheimer did was akin to giving a loaded gun to a disturbed child except on a larger scale.   

You are engaging in apologetics which is an exercise in religious devotion.  And you say science isn't your god?  I don't believe you.

Before calculus people relied more in intuition and simpler ways of measuring.  Forging iron, for instance, couldn't really  be monitored by measuring parameters so much as judging by the color of the metal; or the smell or the sound.  A blacksmith doesn't need to be a scientist.  Science basically means knowledge but the word 'science' isn't really well defined.

I have no political stance.  I quit voting.  I have no trust for any authority outside of the Gospels.  All countries are guilty of human rights abuses, genocide and hegemony.   All governments are protection rackets.   The human race is divided between the lucky and the unlucky; politics doesn't have much to do with it.  It has always been such.  There is a class of man that will thrive no matter where he is what is going on around him.   Then there are those of us who never get a break.   

I like being contentious.  I don't deny it.  I am disgusted with the human condition and sometimes I let my resentment get the best of me.   But I wish no ill to come to anyone.   Even if I don't like them I still don't want anything bad to happen to them.  Hatred and rage?  Witnessing hatred and rage is traumatic.  I don't hate anybody.  I have no criminal record.  I have no record of violence or perversion.  I respect my neighbors property.  I have deference for the fairer gender.

Without liquor and drugs our society would crumble.  We are living in a dying culture.   Art and music are a joke.  Science is dead and also a dead end.  Depression and anxiety are the plagues of our time.  Science has not helped except for in a limited sense.  Like Frankenstein they have created a monster and they can't control it.

People do not need science to be happy or healthy.   They can live a long time without science.  Science is dangerous and scientists are irresponsible and you saying scientists aren't responsible is a cop out and shows you to be philosophically shallow.

Beauty is often mistaken for goodness as Tolstoy pointed out.  Science is a tool and as such is innocuous but holding science as a value and believing in it as the only way to discern truth is a religious belief.  It is pure hubris and just a way for people to stroke their egos and feel like they are smart.   And don't we all love it when our egos are exalted?!   But none of us is smart.  We all have aptitudes.   Some of us are gifted but the gifted are rare.   And there is no such thing as a gifted scientist.

We have been seduced but our lover doesn't really care for us.   She will use us and then leave us a broken shell with no heart to speak of.  It's going to get worse before it starts to get better.

Pardon me for being personal, but this collection of platitudes sounds a lot like teenage angst to me.

It's easy to utter some broad ranging statements to give the appearance of widsom. It is a lot harder to actually acquire real knowledge about how things work. Have you ever tried to find out what "science" is and how it works? There have been philosophers who have shown what science does and how it works based on a systematic approach, you are simply ignorant of them. So the one who is suffering from hybris is you: You are the one who thinks he has all the answers without looking at what other people have thought and written down before him. You dare be judgemental of others, but what have you done that warrants such confidence?

Science is dangerous;  a demonstrable fact.   Scientists are irresponsible; another demonstrable fact.  An observation pointed out by Mary Shelley in her novel 'Frankenstein' published about 1820.  Courage is more important (and more impressive) than intellect.   Kindness is more important than courage.   Science proselytes have a skewed sense of priorities.

Yes, I am judgmental of criminals and liars.  And you should be, too!

[Love]

Woody---I see you're back to being the good Woody. 

People are personally responsible for what they bring into this world.  You are wrong that scientist aren't responsible.  They bare more responsibility for the destruction their inventions cause than the rest of us.  Oppenheimer had the choice not to work on the Manhattan project.  They would have found someone else because brains are cheap.  But, he, the poor wretch we call Oppenheimer, would have still been better off.      What Oppenheimer did was akin to giving a loaded gun to a disturbed child except on a larger scale.   

You are engaging in apologetics which is an exercise in religious devotion.  And you say science isn't your god?  I don't believe you.

Before calculus people relied more in intuition and simpler ways of measuring.  Forging iron, for instance, couldn't really  be monitored by measuring parameters so much as judging by the color of the metal; or the smell or the sound.  A blacksmith doesn't need to be a scientist.  Science basically means knowledge but the word 'science' isn't really well defined.

I have no political stance.  I quit voting.  I have no trust for any authority outside of the Gospels.  All countries are guilty of human rights abuses, genocide and hegemony.   All governments are protection rackets.   The human race is divided between the lucky and the unlucky; politics doesn't have much to do with it.  It has always been such.  There is a class of man that will thrive no matter where he is what is going on around him.   Then there are those of us who never get a break.   

I like being contentious.  I don't deny it.  I am disgusted with the human condition and sometimes I let my resentment get the best of me.   But I wish no ill to come to anyone.   Even if I don't like them I still don't want anything bad to happen to them.  Hatred and rage?  Witnessing hatred and rage is traumatic.  I don't hate anybody.  I have no criminal record.  I have no record of violence or perversion.  I respect my neighbors property.  I have deference for the fairer gender.

Without liquor and drugs our society would crumble.  We are living in a dying culture.   Art and music are a joke.  Science is dead and also a dead end.  Depression and anxiety are the plagues of our time.  Science has not helped except for in a limited sense.  Like Frankenstein they have created a monster and they can't control it.

People do not need science to be happy or healthy.   They can live a long time without science.  Science is dangerous and scientists are irresponsible and you saying scientists aren't responsible is a cop out and shows you to be philosophically shallow.

Beauty is often mistaken for goodness as Tolstoy pointed out.  Science is a tool and as such is innocuous but holding science as a value and believing in it as the only way to discern truth is a religious belief.  It is pure hubris and just a way for people to stroke their egos and feel like they are smart.   And don't we all love it when our egos are exalted?!   But none of us is smart.  We all have aptitudes.   Some of us are gifted but the gifted are rare.   And there is no such thing as a gifted scientist.

We have been seduced but our lover doesn't really care for us.   She will use us and then leave us a broken shell with no heart to speak of.  It's going to get worse before it starts to get better.

I have said many times modern science is 2 percent science, 98 percent conclusion of whatever agenda is either paying for it or controlling it. Though I don't hate science, in its true form it has much use. You can't just blindly and broadly hate something, that is unhealthy, unproductive and only leads to damage to the one whom is hating and the one whom is hated. However, the increased damage goes to the one whom is hating.

Yes I agree people always replace a traditional god with untraditional ones. They may announce to be an athiest yet their new "god" is science, or the government ect. It takes as much faith to believe in evolution and orgins as it does any traditional god.

Yes voting is useless...we learned from the George Bush chad situation that it was getting difficult to control the polls. Then suddenly they switch to an electronic system... convenient.

Also if you are concerned that science will prove the Bible wrong, don't use that as a motivation. The books have been attacked since they were written and have held their own since. You don't need to defend truth, truth is its own defense.

In any case, none of this is justification for broad spectrum hate and anger towards any group. If I hated an entire group over the wrongs of some in that group. I should hate Christians, Jews, Muslims, scientist, athiest, engineers, pilots, maintenance men, politicians, doctors, nurses, programmers and continue going until I run out of populous. I should also hate myself, you, and every other person on this forum.

This is the foundation of how the greatest atrocities of human history begin, rather it for religious, political or other justifications.

"Hate"?!  People just can't be disillusioned and disappointed with the world?  I don't hate anybody!

I don't tell people what to believe.   I only state 'I don't know' and that bothers some people; mostly people who look at science as being some Holy Oracle.  I have yet to meet anybody in authority that I would consider trustworthy and I don't expect people to trust me.  If that means I suffer hubris then I guess I am an egomaniac.

[Love]

I have really enjoyed reading the comments on this site.  I don't know what other people have experienced.   Not too long ago I discovered flat earth theory.   I find that considering the world might be flat provides a very joyous feeling.  There is a freedom about it.  It is a beautiful thing in my eyes.

Science has played itself out and anymore looks like an aging hooker being confronted by the morning light after a night of whoring around.