Curiosity File

Re: Earths Curvature and spin effect on long range ballistics.
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2018, 07:58:50 PM »
snadokhan this is the stuff you're trying to apply as evidence to confirmation of some kind kind of effect on ballistic. It does not in any way have anything to do with ballistics and the Coriolis effect.
Trying to sound intelligent by posting a plethora of scientific jargon, theoretical physics, hypothetical theories that have nothing to do with the subject at hand only proves you are trying to, for lack of better words, run a con job. This is in no way going to make me take you serious.

From this point I probably wont read another thing you post.

However here is some of the scientific jargon claim effects ballistic.
So take any one little aspect of this info and show me in a very simple explanation of how this might correlate to a small lead projectile traveling only 1,000 yards.
         

https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1801/1801.06778.pdf

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20100000021.pdf

https://phys.org/news/2018-02-ionic.html

*

Offline Humble B

  • *
  • Posts: 90
  • Full merrily the humble B doth sing
    • View Profile
Re: Earths Curvature and spin effect on long range ballistics.
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2018, 08:40:19 PM »
snadokhan this is the stuff you're trying to apply as evidence to confirmation of some kind kind of effect on ballistic. It does not in any way have anything to do with ballistics and the Coriolis effect.

A formula by itself doesn't prove anything as long as the formula is not used, and the outcome of the calculation matches the observation and measurement. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. I would like to see sandokhan solving this question with his theory and formula's:

We have 2 canons, one on 30°0′N and the second exactly 50 miles north of the first one
The two canons are pointed at each other and loaded with a shell that will rotate with 20,000 r/minute.
They are aimed to hit each other with their shell, but the Cannoneers did not yet take the Coriolis effect in account because they do not know how to calculate it.

Now can you, sandokhan, show us how you can help them with your formula's and calculate for them how many inches or feet they have to aim their canons to the right, or left (or up or down) to get a direct hit.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 08:46:59 PM by Humble B »
He who believes windmills are his enemies, will take the gentle turning of their blades an act of aggression, and mistake their soft murmur for angry ranting.

*

Offline nickrulercreator

  • *
  • Posts: 279
  • It's round. That much is true.
    • View Profile
Re: Earths Curvature and spin effect on long range ballistics.
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2018, 10:26:53 PM »
Sandokhan, you keep referencing the ether. As far as I know, the ether has no scientific evidence to support its existence, and in fact has been proven to not exist. But, by referencing it, you must have some evidence that supports its existence, right? May I see it?
This end should point toward the ground if you want to go to space. If it starts pointing toward space you are having a bad problem and you will not go to space today.

Curiosity File

Re: Earths Curvature and spin effect on long range ballistics.
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2018, 11:13:52 PM »
Sandokhan, you keep referencing the ether. As far as I know, the ether has no scientific evidence to support its existence, and in fact has been proven to not exist. But, by referencing it, you must have some evidence that supports its existence, right? May I see it?

The problem with information sandokhan shares is it's basically antique and like the Ether drift theory has been disproved by modern equipment, technology and higher educated scientist.
All of the experiments, tests, hypothesis theories, formulas, etc come from 50 to 400 years ago.

The Ether Drift theory has been disprove multiple times and to my knowledge had never been replicated by any other scientific experiment throughout history other than the one that was flawed in the first place.

An Explanation of Dayton Miller’s
 Anomalous “Ether Drift” Result

https://arxiv.org/vc/physics/papers/0608/0608238v2.pdf

 

*

Offline nickrulercreator

  • *
  • Posts: 279
  • It's round. That much is true.
    • View Profile
Re: Earths Curvature and spin effect on long range ballistics.
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2018, 12:46:27 AM »
Sandokhan, you keep referencing the ether. As far as I know, the ether has no scientific evidence to support its existence, and in fact has been proven to not exist. But, by referencing it, you must have some evidence that supports its existence, right? May I see it?

The problem with information sandokhan shares is it's basically antique and like the Ether drift theory has been disproved by modern equipment, technology and higher educated scientist.
All of the experiments, tests, hypothesis theories, formulas, etc come from 50 to 400 years ago.

The Ether Drift theory has been disprove multiple times and to my knowledge had never been replicated by any other scientific experiment throughout history other than the one that was flawed in the first place.

An Explanation of Dayton Miller’s
 Anomalous “Ether Drift” Result

https://arxiv.org/vc/physics/papers/0608/0608238v2.pdf

So what is his opinion on all of this? Surely he must acknowledge what science has shown to be true and false.
This end should point toward the ground if you want to go to space. If it starts pointing toward space you are having a bad problem and you will not go to space today.

Re: Earths Curvature and spin effect on long range ballistics.
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2018, 07:25:29 AM »
As I said, you simply haven't done your homework on the subject.

The debunking of Roberts' catastrophic "analysis" of Dayton Miller's work:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg751624#msg751624 (part I)

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg945952#msg945952 (part II)

The Ether Drift theory has been disprove multiple times and to my knowledge had never been replicated by any other scientific experiment throughout history other than the one that was flawed in the first place.

Dr. Yuri Galaev's super ether drift analysis, the most comprehensive ever performed:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1722791#msg1722791

Moreover, E.T. Whittaker proved the existence of ether (longitudinal waves) a long time ago:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1994059#msg1994059

The Aharonov-Bohm effect is another proof of the existence of ether (potential):



Topological considerations of the Aharonov-Bohm effect:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1999598#msg1999598

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3583
    • View Profile
Re: Earths Curvature and spin effect on long range ballistics.
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2018, 07:47:10 AM »
sandokhan, simple question, with all that you have offered so far, can you apply your formulas and solve Humble B's puzzle?

Re: Earths Curvature and spin effect on long range ballistics.
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2018, 09:10:23 AM »
We have 2 canons, one on 30°0′N and the second exactly 50 miles north of the first one
The two canons are pointed at each other and loaded with a shell that will rotate with 20,000 r/minute.
They are aimed to hit each other with their shell, but the Cannoneers did not yet take the Coriolis effect in account because they do not know how to calculate it.


Here is the formula for the Coriolis deflection of a projectile:

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a010816.pdf

Use it appropiately.


*

Offline Humble B

  • *
  • Posts: 90
  • Full merrily the humble B doth sing
    • View Profile
Re: Earths Curvature and spin effect on long range ballistics.
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2018, 12:49:02 PM »
Here is the formula for the Coriolis deflection of a projectile:

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a010816.pdf

Use it appropiately.

No, I asked you to use it. I'm too dumb to work with such complicated formula's on my own, and I do not understand the theory behind the formula.
But you seem to understand it all, and I may presume you checked the formulas.
Therefore I would like to see your calculations first, to learn from you how it should be done appropriately.
He who believes windmills are his enemies, will take the gentle turning of their blades an act of aggression, and mistake their soft murmur for angry ranting.

*

Offline Humble B

  • *
  • Posts: 90
  • Full merrily the humble B doth sing
    • View Profile
Re: Earths Curvature and spin effect on long range ballistics.
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2018, 01:09:33 PM »
Here is the formula for the Coriolis deflection of a projectile:

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a010816.pdf

But wait...... this is the formula which is derived from the theory about a projectile that flies over the surface of a spinning ball.

What I was asking for was a calculation with a formula derived from the theory about a projectile that flies over a stationary earth while it is subjected to a force created by a drifting aether. If you change the theory, you also have to change the formulas, because formula's always have to be explained and supported by the underlying theory.

Explaining the Coriolis force by a drifting aether, but then calculating the effect with the help of a spinning globe doesn't make sense.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 01:21:01 PM by Humble B »
He who believes windmills are his enemies, will take the gentle turning of their blades an act of aggression, and mistake their soft murmur for angry ranting.

Re: Earths Curvature and spin effect on long range ballistics.
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2018, 02:48:50 PM »
But wait...... this is the formula which is derived from the theory about a projectile that flies over the surface of a spinning ball.

What I was asking for was a calculation with a formula derived from the theory about a projectile that flies over a stationary earth while it is subjected to a force created by a drifting aether.


You do not seem to be very familiar with this type of debate.

The Coriolis force involves ROTATION: whether it be the rotation of the Earth, or the rotation of the ether field above the surface of the Earth.

The formulas are the same.

That is why the Coriolis effect, or Foucault's pendulum, cannot be used to debate heliocentrism vs. geocentrism.

You must understand Mach's principle, as it applies exactly to this situation.

By maintaining the relativity of all motion, especially rotational motion, E. Mach denied the existence of absolute motion and of absolute space. Accordingly, Mach maintained the equivalence of the Ptolemaic and the Copernican systems and the equivalence of rotating-system/fixed-universe and universe-rotating/fixed-system situations.

Mach's Principle: A body experiences no inertial forces when it is at rest or in uniform motion with respect to the center of mass of the entire universe. When its motion is nonuniform (accelerated) with respect to the total mass of the universe, it experiences forces such as centrifugal force and the Coriolis effect. Hence, the "local" behavior of matter is influenced by the "global" properties of the universe, i.e., those properties that describe the universe as a whole, which are studied in cosmology.

The Lense-Thirring effect as a consequence of Mach's Principle:

http://www.answers.com/topic/mach-s-principle

H. Thirring observed that the complete equivalence between the reference frames, explaining such phenomena as the Foucault pendulum equally well in a geocentric reference frame, is secured by definition by Einstein's 1915 work: "the required equivalence appears to be guaranteed by the general co-variance of the field equations." That is, Einstein's field equations are structured to supply the necessary upward force on the geosynchronous satellite in a geocentric as well as a heliocentric framework. Thus, H. Thirring notes that: "...in an Einsteinian gravitational field, caused by distant rotating masses, forces appear which are analogous to the centrifugal and Coriolis forces."

Max Born in his famous book,"Einstein's Theory of Relativity", Dover Publications,1962, pgs. 344 & 345 says:

"...Thus we may return to Ptolemy's point of view of a 'motionless earth'...One has to show that the transformed metric can be regarded as produced according to Einstein's field equations, by distant rotating masses. This has been done by Thirring. He calculated a field due to a rotating, hollow, thick-walled sphere and proved that inside the cavity it behaved as though there were centrifugal and other inertial forces usually attributed to absolute space.

Thus from Einstein's point of view, Ptolemy and Corpenicus are equally right."

Einstein himself also says:

"The struggle, so violent in the early days of science, between the views of Ptolemy and Copernicus would then be quite meaningless. Either CS could be used with equal justification. The two sentences, 'the sun is at rest and the earth moves,' or 'the sun moves and the earth is at rest,' would simply mean two different conventions concerning two different CS. -- Einstein and Infeld, The Evolution of Physics, p.212 (p.248 in original 1938 ed.)"


Therefore, distant rotary masses can cause local inertial forces, like the Coriolis and centrifugal forces, which perfectly mimic the inertial effects of a spinning Earth . This implies that there are two possible explanations for the inertial forces whenever objects are in relative rotational motion.

Mach's principle has been confirmed in theory by Hans Thirring and no experimental test has ever disproved this principle of relative motion.

The experiment performed by J. Barbour and B. Bertotti proved that a large hollow sphere (representing the distant star fields) rotating around a small solid sphere inside (modeling the Earth) produced exactly the same pattern of Coriolis and centrifugal forces that are claimed as proof of Earth's spinning in space. If the hollow shell of matter accelerates or rotates, any object inside the shell will tend to be carried along with the acceleration or rotation to some extent. There have arisen some questions re: the Lagrangian used by Barbour and Bertotti and also about the coordinate transformations discussed in their article, but the main experiment showed, quite clearly that Mach's Principle is correct.

http://www.freelists.org/post/geocentrism/Overview-Barbour-Bertotti

Ernst Mach proposed that it is the weight of the stars circling the Earth that drags Foucault pendulums around, creates Coriolis forces in the air that give the cyclones to our weather etc. Barbour and Bertotti (Il Nuovo Cimento 32B(1):1-27, 11 March 1977) proved that a hollow sphere (the universe) rotating around a solid sphere inside (the Earth) produced exactly the same results of Coriolis forces, dragging of Foucault pendulums etc. that are put forward as 'proofs' of heliocentricity.


Do you understand now?

The Coriolis effect is just a physical effect.

To distinguish between heliocentrism and geocentrism one needs the SAGNAC EFFECT.


*

Offline Humble B

  • *
  • Posts: 90
  • Full merrily the humble B doth sing
    • View Profile
Re: Earths Curvature and spin effect on long range ballistics.
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2018, 04:22:11 PM »

Do you understand now?

Yes, now I understand that you do not understand your own theory yourself, and that you try to hide that by burying those who question it under mountains of irrelevant scientific and pseudo-scientific wrangling and studies of which only people with a PhD in Quantum Physics and General Relativity can tell if they make any sense or not.

When you know that "The Coriolis effect is just a physical effect" of one body moving over the surface of an other body, you ought to understand that just plain classical mechanics is sufficient to explain and calculate this Coriolis effect, and that referring to all those non-related studies you are referring to only serves the goal of blurring the picture to hide the truth that your "drifting aether theory" did never surpass the low level of useless phantasies.

Because in physics the difference between accepted scientific theories and useless phantasies is that the first ones have delivered a bunch of new formula's that can be used and tested and have proven to be reliable and useful in the real world of real physics. While the latter, the useless phantasies, never give birth to new formulas that can be tested and used to prove the phantasy more than just a phantasy.

That's why that as long as your "spinning aether phantasy" does not deliver any new formula's that successfully can and will be used to calculate the Coriolis force, or the torque and precession of a spinning gyroscope without the help of a spinning ball, your phantasies will never be accepted as theory, but always be mocked as a useless phantasy haunting the dark caverns of junk science.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 04:40:25 PM by Humble B »
He who believes windmills are his enemies, will take the gentle turning of their blades an act of aggression, and mistake their soft murmur for angry ranting.

Re: Earths Curvature and spin effect on long range ballistics.
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2018, 04:35:45 PM »
That's why that as long as your "spinning aether phantasy" does not deliver any new formula's that successfully can and will be used to calculate the Coriolis force, or the torque and precession of a spinning gyroscope, your phantasies will never be accepted as theory, but always be mocked as a useless phantasy haunting the dark caverns of junk science.

I am sorry to disappoint you.

Here is one of the most sought-after formulas, which no other physicist, not even Nobel prize winners, was able to derive it.

But I was.

The generalized Sagnac effect formula:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2070082#msg2070082

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2070907#msg2070907


*

Offline Humble B

  • *
  • Posts: 90
  • Full merrily the humble B doth sing
    • View Profile
Re: Earths Curvature and spin effect on long range ballistics.
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2018, 04:53:03 PM »
Great, I love to be disappointed.

Now disappoint me again by demonstrating how you use this formula:



to solve this problem without any help of a spinning earth:

We have 2 canons, one on 30°0′N and the second exactly 50 miles north of the first one
The two canons are pointed at each other and loaded with a shell that will rotate with 20,000 r/minute.
They are aimed to hit each other with their shell, but the Cannoneers did not yet take the Coriolis effect in account because they do not know how to calculate it.
Show us how you use this formula and calculate for them how many inches or feet they have to aim their canons to the right, or left (or up or down) to get a direct hit.
He who believes windmills are his enemies, will take the gentle turning of their blades an act of aggression, and mistake their soft murmur for angry ranting.

Curiosity File

Re: Earths Curvature and spin effect on long range ballistics.
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2018, 05:37:04 PM »
Sandokhan this is, well, wow, your really smart.
"Here is one of the most sought-after formulas, which no other physicist, not even Nobel prize winners, was able to derive it. But I was."

You should be able to solve Humble B's puzzle with a simple formula and explanation that an 8th grader can understand

Great, I love to be disappointed.

Now disappoint me again by demonstrating how you use this formula:



to solve this problem without any help of a spinning earth:

We have 2 canons, one on 30°0′N and the second exactly 50 miles north of the first one
The two canons are pointed at each other and loaded with a shell that will rotate with 20,000 r/minute.
They are aimed to hit each other with their shell, but the Cannoneers did not yet take the Coriolis effect in account because they do not know how to calculate it.
Show us how you use this formula and calculate for them how many inches or feet they have to aim their canons to the right, or left (or up or down) to get a direct hit.

Re: Earths Curvature and spin effect on long range ballistics.
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2018, 06:02:25 PM »
to solve this problem without any help of a spinning earth:

We have 2 canons, one on 30°0′N and the second exactly 50 miles north of the first one
The two canons are pointed at each other and loaded with a shell that will rotate with 20,000 r/minute.
They are aimed to hit each other with their shell, but the Cannoneers did not yet take the Coriolis effect in account because they do not know how to calculate it.
Show us how you use this formula and calculate for them how many inches or feet they have to aim their canons to the right, or left (or up or down) to get a direct hit.


That's easy.

You apply the following well-known results:

Therefore, distant rotary masses can cause local inertial forces, like the Coriolis and centrifugal forces, which perfectly mimic the inertial effects of a spinning Earth . This implies that there are two possible explanations for the inertial forces whenever objects are in relative rotational motion.

Mach's principle has been confirmed in theory by Hans Thirring and no experimental test has ever disproved this principle of relative motion.

The experiment performed by J. Barbour and B. Bertotti proved that a large hollow sphere (representing the distant star fields) rotating around a small solid sphere inside (modeling the Earth) produced exactly the same pattern of Coriolis and centrifugal forces that are claimed as proof of Earth's spinning in space. If the hollow shell of matter accelerates or rotates, any object inside the shell will tend to be carried along with the acceleration or rotation to some extent. There have arisen some questions re: the Lagrangian used by Barbour and Bertotti and also about the coordinate transformations discussed in their article, but the main experiment showed, quite clearly that Mach's Principle is correct.

http://www.freelists.org/post/geocentrism/Overview-Barbour-Bertotti

Ernst Mach proposed that it is the weight of the stars circling the Earth that drags Foucault pendulums around, creates Coriolis forces in the air that give the cyclones to our weather etc. Barbour and Bertotti (Il Nuovo Cimento 32B(1):1-27, 11 March 1977) proved that a hollow sphere (the universe) rotating around a solid sphere inside (the Earth) produced exactly the same results of Coriolis forces, dragging of Foucault pendulums etc. that are put forward as 'proofs' of heliocentricity.

Then you simply use the same well-known formula to solve the problem you posed.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a010816.pdf

If you disagree, you are going to have to disprove Mach's principle.

*

Offline juner

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 10178
    • View Profile
Re: Earths Curvature and spin effect on long range ballistics.
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2018, 06:30:36 PM »
Sandokhan this is, well, wow, your really smart.
"Here is one of the most sought-after formulas, which no other physicist, not even Nobel prize winners, was able to derive it. But I was."

You should be able to solve Humble B's puzzle with a simple formula and explanation that an 8th grader can understand

Refrain from low-content posting in the upper fora. Warned.

Curiosity File

Re: Earths Curvature and spin effect on long range ballistics.
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2018, 06:45:41 PM »
Sandokhan this is, well, wow, your really smart.
"Here is one of the most sought-after formulas, which no other physicist, not even Nobel prize winners, was able to derive it. But I was."

You should be able to solve Humble B's puzzle with a simple formula and explanation that an 8th grader can understand


Refrain from low-content posting in the upper fora. Warned.

Warning excepted.
Sandakhan you've shown a high level of intelligence and education..
Please post a formula that solves Humble B's puzzle that I, with only a high school education from 45 years ago, can understand. 

Curiosity File

Re: Earths Curvature and spin effect on long range ballistics.
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2018, 06:55:10 PM »
to solve this problem without any help of a spinning earth:

If you disagree, you are going to have to disprove Mach's principle.

Again you are post stuff, "Mach's Principle",  that is nothing more than a hypothesis that the distant stars have some kind of influence on mass.
Distant stars don't exist on a flat earth with a dome.

Mach doesn't even prove his principle. It's it's just a hypothesis.


Is Mach's Principle Wrong?
Ask Question
up vote
27
down vote
favorite
23

This question was prompted by another question about a paper by Woodward (not mine). IMO Mach's principle is very problematic (?wrong) thinking. Mach was obviously influenced by Leibniz. Empty space solutions in GR would result in a Minkowski metric and would suggest no inertia. Mach's principle seems incompatible with GR. Gravitational waves could also be a problem. I had thought that papers like one by Wolfgang Rindler had more or less marginalised the Mach Principle, but I see lots of Internet discussion of it. Is it correct? Wrong? Is there evidence? (frame dragging experiments)?
Let's use this definition from ScienceWorld.Wolfram.com:

    In his book The Science of Mechanics (1893), Ernst Mach put forth the idea that it did not make sense to speak of the acceleration of a mass relative to absolute space. Rather, one would do better to speak of acceleration relative to the distant stars. What this implies is that the inertia of a body here is influenced by matter far distant.

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/5483/is-machs-principle-wrong

 

Re: Earths Curvature and spin effect on long range ballistics.
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2018, 07:05:25 PM »
Please post a formula that solves Humble B's puzzle that I, with only a high school education from 45 years ago, can understand.

I already did, even twice already.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a010816.pdf

Please try and understand.

You are attempting to use the Coriolis force as some kind of an argument to prove heliocentricity.

And you cannot do that: it cannot be done.

The Coriolis force, involving rotation, is a valid argument for BOTH heliocentrists and geocentrists.

Mach's principle, which has been shown to be true by both Thirring and Born,  shows that "the two sentences, 'the sun is at rest and the earth moves,' or 'the sun moves and the earth is at rest,' would simply mean two different conventions concerning two different CS".

One valid formula to be used by both heliocentrists and geocentrists.

The Coriolis effect is a physical effect.

To distinguish between heliocentricity and geocentricity you need the Sagnac effect, namely my formula, the best ever in the field: