The Flat Earth Society
Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: OrigamiBoy on December 05, 2017, 06:00:05 PM
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Hey, I am an electronics enthusiast and have recently gone on a cruise in the Carribean, I brought along with me my homemade GPS inside of an Altoids Tin (Something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ikcvef2ENr0). When I was on the cruise, there were no cell towers anywhere and I got reading very quickly (Like within 5s). Please note: When I am in my apartment (I live in NY) It takes around 30s to get a reading. Even if there was a cell unit on the cruise(There was not, I did not get any cell reception) don't you think I would get faster readings in NY where there are cell towers all around? GPS module used: https://www.adafruit.com/product/746.
PS: Don't try to lecture me on how GPS modules work, I know the ins and outs of them like my own house.
Also: Try to only give me scientific evidence, nothing like: "They probably have a secret cell unit on the ship just for this purpose" or "THE GPS UNIT IS FAKE"
Good Luck debunking this! :)
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The captain himself said there was no way of getting a cell reception on the cruise, I asked.
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Look up the LORAN system. This is one example of non-satellite navigation at sea, and is a system that is already deployed world wide. The latest version of LORAN, in fact, is intercompatible with GPS.
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Look up the LORAN system. This is one example of non-satellite navigation at sea, and is a system that is already deployed world wide. The latest version of LORAN, in fact, is intercompatible with GPS.
How does LORAN work when 200 miles of the coast?
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ok LORAN, but the module is a GPS module, not a LORAN receiver ::)
Please research the module I used, its data number is gtpa013.
The 37 page data sheet for it does not mention LORAN once.
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ok LORAN, but the module is a GPS module, not a LORAN receiver ::)
The last version of LORAN, eLORAN, claims to be interoperable with GPS.
http://www.insidegnss.com/node/1571
Among the IAT’s key findings: “eLoran is the only cost-effective backup for national needs; it is completely interoperable with and independent of GPS, with different propagation and failure mechanisms, plus significantly superior robustness to radio frequency interference and jamming.”
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Pretty sad it was shut down :/
http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/02/08/loran.navigation.shutdown/index.html
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ok LORAN, but the module is a GPS module, not a LORAN receiver ::)
The last version of LORAN, eLORAN, claims to be interoperable with GPS.
http://www.insidegnss.com/node/1571
Among the IAT’s key findings: “eLoran is the only cost-effective backup for national needs; it is completely interoperable with and independent of GPS, with different propagation and failure mechanisms, plus significantly superior robustness to radio frequency interference and jamming.”
So much wrong here. Even the link is horrible. It does NOT explain how LORAN works. If I didn't know better, you are just saying words that hold absolutely no meaning. LORAN does not describe why he would get a GPS signal.
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Pretty sad it was shut down :/
http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/02/08/loran.navigation.shutdown/index.html
It was, but look at dGPS. It is what Tom is trying to prove with LORAN, but failing to describe. Heck, I will give him the benefit, and say he meant eDLORAN, but even then, it doesn't help why you get a GPS signal.
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I doubt tom bishop will reply to this, he always "forgets about" threads when he is stumped
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Pretty sad it was shut down :/
http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/02/08/loran.navigation.shutdown/index.html
It says that LORAN-C was shut down. Presumably they upgraded.
The article I linked in my last post says that the officially stated purpose of eLORAN is to be used as a "backup" for GPS.
It says as well in your article:
In late 2006, an Independent Assessment Team headed by Bradford Parkinson, known as the "father of GPS," unanimously recommended that an enhanced version of Loran, known as eLORAN, "be completed and retained as the national backup system for GPS," saying it had "critical safety of life, national and economic security, and quality of life applications."
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Pretty sad it was shut down :/
http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/02/08/loran.navigation.shutdown/index.html
It says that LORAN-C was shut down. Presumably they upgraded.
The article I linked in my last post says that the officially stated purpose of eLORAN is to be used as a "backup" for GPS.
It says as well in your article:
In late 2006, an Independent Assessment Team headed by Bradford Parkinson, known as the "father of GPS," unanimously recommended that an enhanced version of Loran, known as eLORAN, "be completed and retained as the national backup system for GPS," saying it had "critical safety of life, national and economic security, and quality of life applications."
Once again, this doesn't explain why he would get a GPS signal.
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I got a GPS signal. not a LORAN signal... explain
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Once again, this doesn't explain why he would get a GPS signal.
The US has 4 military bases in the Caribbeans and over 12 throughout the Gulf of Mexico area. Why wouldn't they deploy eLORAN there if it's supposed to be a backup for GPS?
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IT WAS A GPS SIGNAL EXPLAIN PLEASE
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ok LORAN, but the module is a GPS module, not a LORAN receiver ::)
The last version of LORAN, eLORAN, claims to be interoperable with GPS.
http://www.insidegnss.com/node/1571
Among the IAT’s key findings: “eLoran is the only cost-effective backup for national needs; it is completely interoperable with and independent of GPS, with different propagation and failure mechanisms, plus significantly superior robustness to radio frequency interference and jamming.”
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The last country to actively develop any of the Loran systems was the UK and this service, eLoran was discontinued in December 2015. The system use stations transmitting pulsed low frequency waves which were fixed by the receiver and cross referenced with synchronised signals from other stations. Each wave only gave straight line information based on time taken to receive the signal. The further the station the longer the time, so cross referencing the signals at the receiver would give a position. It was totally different from GPS, but eLoran used positioning information from both to give greater precision to the positioning accuracy. Loran generally could transmit up to 2500 miles under favourable conditions.
It would also be worth mentioning that the system also relied on the accuracy of the round earth based charting and co-ordinates system as does GPS and wouldn't work effectively with any known flat earth maps.
Roger
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The last country to actively develop any of the Loran systems was the UK and this service, eLoran was discontinued in December 2015. The system use stations transmitting pulsed low frequency waves which were fixed by the receiver and cross referenced with synchronised signals from other stations. Each wave only gave straight line information based on time taken to receive the signal. The further the station the longer the time, so cross referencing the signals at the receiver would give a position. It was totally different from GPS, but eLoran used positioning information from both to give greater precision to the positioning accuracy. Loran generally could transmit up to 2500 miles under favourable conditions.
It would also be worth mentioning that the system also relied on the accuracy of the round earth based charting and co-ordinates system as does GPS and wouldn't work effectively with any known flat earth maps.
Roger
Better man than me....wasn't going to spell that out for him.
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Bishop Tom, your eLORAN theory is nice, but it does not explain satellite phones. These phones communicate with large satellites, orbiting around 20000 miles above the earth, and provide reception pretty much everywhere, even the north and south poles. One of the satellites that manage calls on these phones is called Iridium(you can do some research on it if you would like). These phones are commonly used when cell towers are knocked out and work perfectly as described. eLORAN has nothing to do with satellite phones so it cannot be used as an excuse.
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Look up the LORAN system. This is one example of non-satellite navigation at sea, and is a system that is already deployed world wide. The latest version of LORAN, in fact, is intercompatible with GPS.
The existance of a does not prove the non-existance of b.
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Lessee now - as I recall Loran used LF (Low Frequency) signals in the 100 to 200 khz range. GPS uses UHF (Ultra high frequency) signals in the 1,000 MHZ range. The likelihood of a receiver designed for one receiving (or rather passing) signals broadcast by the other is right down there at zero.
In terms of their frequencies the two are as alike as are pogo sticks and butterscotch.
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Lessee now - as I recall Loran used LF (Low Frequency) signals in the 100 to 200 khz range. GPS uses UHF (Ultra high frequency) signals in the 1,000 MHZ range. The likelihood of a receiver designed for one receiving (or rather passing) signals broadcast by the other is right down there at zero.
In terms of their frequencies the two are as alike as are pogo sticks and butterscotch.
Yes, receivers are designed for a specific purpose. If they were not so precise, they would pick up signals from things they don't care about, and it would cause major electrical noise.
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Bishop Tom, your eLORAN theory is nice, but it does not explain satellite phones. These phones communicate with large satellites, orbiting around 20000 miles above the earth, and provide reception pretty much everywhere, even the north and south poles. One of the satellites that manage calls on these phones is called Iridium(you can do some research on it if you would like). These phones are commonly used when cell towers are knocked out and work perfectly as described. eLORAN has nothing to do with satellite phones so it cannot be used as an excuse.
The topic was about GPS, not satellite phones.
You aren't going to get anywhere with this debate since it's such a technical area.
I think a better question for those pushing the eLORAN system is
1. What was the system being used prior to the eLORAN system, and
2. Why would they make up the need for satellites when a land based system would be available? I'm looking at private companies here since land based infrastructure is much cheeper than orbital sats.
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Bishop Tom, your eLORAN theory is nice, but it does not explain satellite phones. These phones communicate with large satellites, orbiting around 20000 miles above the earth, and provide reception pretty much everywhere, even the north and south poles. One of the satellites that manage calls on these phones is called Iridium(you can do some research on it if you would like). These phones are commonly used when cell towers are knocked out and work perfectly as described. eLORAN has nothing to do with satellite phones so it cannot be used as an excuse.
The topic was about GPS, not satellite phones.
You aren't going to get anywhere with this debate since it's such a technical area.
I think a better question for those pushing the eLORAN system is
1. What was the system being used prior to the eLORAN system, and
2. Why would they make up the need for satellites when a land based system would be available? I'm looking at private companies here since land based infrastructure is much cheeper than orbital sats.
If you read the dates, that was posted months ago, and it has separated off into many different threads. :)
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What frequencies uses eLORAN?
How those radio waves propagate?
What frequencies uses GPS?
How those radio waves propagate?
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LORAN uses 3-8 MEGA-hz, and GPS uses 1.2 to 1.5 GIGA-hz
these are way too different to be cross-compatible.
Here is the data sheet for the IC I used:
https://cdn-shop.adafruit.com/datasheets/GlobalTop-FGPMMOPA6H-Datasheet-V0A.pdf
in all 37 pages it does not mention loran once.
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Also, check this out, this is really cool:
https://www.ntia.doc.gov/files/ntia/publications/2003-allochrt.pdf
These are most the American frequencies nicely organized. I don't want to get to off topic, but as you can see there are tons of different frequencies dedicated to satellites. Why would they go through the trouble making up tons of satellites, and dedicating frequencies to them when the common day person would never even look at charts like this. If it was faked, It must of taking tons of effort to make up, create documentation, and organize all these fake satellites. Who's getting paid to do this? Why has absolutely no one official come out and said that the government is pulling an elaborate prank on everyone? Why would they go through the trouble doing daily broadcasts from the ISS, it must be extremely expansive to fund all that. If I was faking the round earth, I'd probably not spend thousands of dollars every day to fake an ISS broadcast.
Sorry if this is off topic, It may need a thread of its own.
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My apologies. I didn't look at the dates. I had actually looked thru this thread right after I started my own about GPS lol.
I thought some more about this argument, and I don't think Tom was saying that it is absolutely eLORAN that is responsible for GPS, just that there is a way for GPS to work without satellites.
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My apologies. I didn't look at the dates. I had actually looked thru this thread right after I started my own about GPS lol.
I thought some more about this argument, and I don't think Tom was saying that it is absolutely eLORAN that is responsible for GPS, just that there is a way for GPS to work without satellites.
Tom has not described an alternative system in any detail though.
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My apologies. I didn't look at the dates. I had actually looked thru this thread right after I started my own about GPS lol.
I thought some more about this argument, and I don't think Tom was saying that it is absolutely eLORAN that is responsible for GPS, just that there is a way for GPS to work without satellites.
Tom has not described an alternative system in any detail though.
We have already killed tom's eloran argument, I'm just waiting for him or someone else to bring up another point for us to debunk
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My apologies. I didn't look at the dates. I had actually looked thru this thread right after I started my own about GPS lol.
I thought some more about this argument, and I don't think Tom was saying that it is absolutely eLORAN that is responsible for GPS, just that there is a way for GPS to work without satellites.
Tom has not described an alternative system in any detail though.
We have already killed tom's eloran argument, I'm just waiting for him or someone else to bring up another point for us to debunk
I look at it as a thought exercise on what is possible, not an absolute. It is intriguing to think of possible alternatives. I had never really thought about how GPS works and how effective satellites are at locating stuff until talking on this forum. I have learned now just how necessary they are.
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My apologies. I didn't look at the dates. I had actually looked thru this thread right after I started my own about GPS lol.
I thought some more about this argument, and I don't think Tom was saying that it is absolutely eLORAN that is responsible for GPS, just that there is a way for GPS to work without satellites.
1.2 - 1.5 GHz are propagating in straight lines, like light.
Those frequencies don't reflect from ionosphere either.
They need line of sight.
Forcing those frequencies to work from ground at great distances would force assumption that those distances are straight, with one quirk:
if they are straight, light would also travel the same paths, and we see it doesn't.
Tom's statement that light travels in straight lines would be compromised.