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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #900 on: August 09, 2014, 08:46:39 PM »

Offline Blanko

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #901 on: August 09, 2014, 08:49:46 PM »
Also, technological advancedness and pompousness are just as much elven stereotypes as dwarven ones, if not more so. So why is it so hard to accept that Dwemer are in fact elves when everything in the games suggest that they are? Or is anything with a beard a dwarf now?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 08:51:17 PM by Blanko »

Ghost of V

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #902 on: August 09, 2014, 08:53:28 PM »
I think there is some sort of double standard going on here. Some of you seem to think that Oblivion is generic because of its setting, which many of you have likened to Tolkien's Middle-Earth. However, Oblivion obviously does not take place in Middle-Earth.

Now, when we use the same argument against you: "Dwemer share many similarities with Dwarves, therefore they are a generic archetype". Your tone changes completely. Now, somehow it's forgivable that they based Dwemer on Dwarves and it's not generic at all. Why is that given that they share so many similarities?

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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #903 on: August 09, 2014, 08:53:58 PM »
Also, technological advancedness and pompousness are just as much elven stereotypes as dwarven ones, if not more so. So why is it so hard to accept that Dwemer are in fact elves when everything in the games suggest that they are? Or is everything with a beard a dwarf now?

Elves are stereotypically stuck in medieval stasis, as opposed to dwarves which are usually more advanced than the surrounding cultures. TES matches up to both of these stereotypes perfectly. Since Saddam seems to prefer TvTropes to support his arguments I'll provide an additional link for Elves: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurElvesAreBetter

They have a dwarf link, too, which other than being short (debatable, no dwemer are actually alive to prove their height) they match the Dwemer perfectly.

Saddam Hussein

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #904 on: August 09, 2014, 08:55:45 PM »
There's like one guy alive who wants to be called a "Snow Elf."  It's not incorrect to say that Falmer is another term for Snow Elf.  It's just that the historical Falmer were far more civilized and less savage than their modern descendants.

The discussion moved on from this point rather quickly.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #905 on: August 09, 2014, 08:57:22 PM »
There's like one guy alive who wants to be called a "Snow Elf."  It's not incorrect to say that Falmer is another term for Snow Elf.  It's just that the historical Falmer were far more civilized and less savage than their modern descendants.

The discussion moved on from this point rather quickly.

The discussion moved on because snow elves are boring.

Ghost of V

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #906 on: August 09, 2014, 09:03:22 PM »
There's like one guy alive who wants to be called a "Snow Elf."  It's not incorrect to say that Falmer is another term for Snow Elf.  It's just that the historical Falmer were far more civilized and less savage than their modern descendants.

The discussion moved on from this point rather quickly.

Falmer from Skyrim are significantly different biologically than true Falmer. They are almost two completely different races.

Offline Blanko

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #907 on: August 09, 2014, 09:04:55 PM »
(debatable, no dwemer are actually alive to prove their height)

Incorrect.

I think there is some sort of double standard going on here. Some of you seem to think that Oblivion is generic because of its setting, which many of you have likened to Tolkien's Middle-Earth. However, Oblivion obviously does not take place in Middle-Earth.

Some? I think Saddam said that, who is not in this conversation.

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Now, when we use the same argument against you: "Dwemer share many similarities with Dwarves, therefore they are a generic archetype". Your tone changes completely. Now, somehow it's forgivable that they based Dwemer on Dwarves and it's not generic at all. Why is that given that they share so many similarities?

I don't care how generic it is, I'm just pointing out that a lot of the things you're trying to pass off as similarities are simply incorrect. The things you have left are effectively based on Aldmer rather than dwarves, which would make perfect sense considering they're descendants of Aldmer.

Ghost of V

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #908 on: August 09, 2014, 09:30:01 PM »
Saying we are incorrect doesn't make us incorrect. The Dwemer share many similarties with common dwarves in literature/games/whatever.


The Dwemer were masters of crafting and smith-work. They even created an Aetherium Forge, a highly advanced smithing forge to... you guessed it, forge weapons and armor! The Dwemer mainly focused on metallurgy, the study of the physical and chemical elements of metal, just like Dwarves. Because of this, they were able to create their own distinctive form of metal which was easily mistaken for bronze.. bronze being a common Dwarf motif as well. And yes, many Dwemer did in fact live underground. Not all of them, however.

Also, from this concept art... it looks pretty evident that they were intially based on dwarves. There is nothing to compare them to in this picture, but they look anatomically shorter than average & have beards. They are also pictured with weapons and shields that they presumably made themselves.




Morrowind's opening sequence starts in 16 Last Seed, 427, 10 AM. The dwarves disapeared in 1E 700. Yagrum Bagarn, the last dwemer in existence (from Morrowind), has been alive since the dissapearence of the dwarves, making him very very old. Guess what Tolkien race has a very long lifespan as well? Yep, dwarves.


The biggest difference between the two (Dwarves & Dwemer) is that Dwemer were very interested in science and magic, whereas Dwarves were not.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 09:40:00 PM by Vauxhall »

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Offline beardo

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #909 on: August 09, 2014, 09:32:49 PM »
The biggest different between the two (Dwarves & Dwemer) is that Dwemer were very interested in science and magic, whereas Dwarves were not.
You forgot the part where Dwemer are Elves, and Dwarves are not. I'd say that's the absloute biggest difference.
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Ghost of V

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #910 on: August 09, 2014, 09:35:03 PM »
The biggest different between the two (Dwarves & Dwemer) is that Dwemer were very interested in science and magic, whereas Dwarves were not.
You forgot the part where Dwemer are Elves, and Dwarves are not.

That is irrelevant. Like Rushy said, just because you call them something different does not change the fact that they were obviously inspired by dwarves. That's all I'm trying to get across here.


Dwemer were inspired by Dwarves. Reread the thread if you don't understand the similarities.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #911 on: August 09, 2014, 09:36:25 PM »
You forgot the part where Dwemer are Elves, and Dwarves are not. I'd say that's the absloute biggest difference.

I see, the old "if I say it over and over again, it will magically become true" style. Sadly, no. The Dwemer are dwarves, which is why the game calls them dwarves. As Saddam has pointed out, we can't really trust in-game books and lore, because Bethesda could be making them wrong on purpose. However, we have meta-data, the in-game menus and item names. This meta-data calls them dwarves. Therefore, the truth is that they're dwarves which are mistaken for elves, not the opposite.

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #912 on: August 09, 2014, 09:38:58 PM »
Rushy, can you give us an example of a fictional setting that is relatively unique?

Relative to what?

Relative to other fictional settings. Obviously you're able to form opinions regarding what is and isn't generic, so I'd like to hear some examples of settings that aren't generic.

I think there is some sort of double standard going on here. Some of you seem to think that Oblivion is generic because of its setting, which many of you have likened to Tolkien's Middle-Earth. However, Oblivion obviously does not take place in Middle-Earth.

Now, when we use the same argument against you: "Dwemer share many similarities with Dwarves, therefore they are a generic archetype". Your tone changes completely. Now, somehow it's forgivable that they based Dwemer on Dwarves and it's not generic at all. Why is that given that they share so many similarities?

I won't deny that the Dwemer are inspired in part by Tolkein's dwarfs, however, Dwemer are only a small part of Morrowind's setting. Nearly everything about Oblivion is generic. The landscape, the architecture, the fire and brimstone antagonist, etc. There's plenty of interesting stuff, but almost none of it is on the surface. That isn't necessarily a bad thing.

As for Dwemer being short: just play Morrowind. You see Dwemer ghosts and statues of Dwemer. Their height and proportions are nearly identical to that of the average Dunmer.
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Offline Blanko

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #913 on: August 09, 2014, 09:40:05 PM »
Morrowind's opening sequence starts in 16 Last Seed, 427, 10 AM. The dwarves disapeared in 1E 700. Yagrum Bagarn, the last dwemer in existence (from Morrowind), has been alive since the dissapearence of the dwarves, making him very very old.

He has corprus, so that doesn't say anything about the possible lifespan of Dwemer.

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Guess what Tolkien race has a very long lifespan as well? Yep, dwarves.

No, elves do.

Ghost of V

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #914 on: August 09, 2014, 09:44:57 PM »
Morrowind's opening sequence starts in 16 Last Seed, 427, 10 AM. The dwarves disapeared in 1E 700. Yagrum Bagarn, the last dwemer in existence (from Morrowind), has been alive since the dissapearence of the dwarves, making him very very old.

He has corprus, so that doesn't say anything about the possible lifespan of Dwemer.

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Guess what Tolkien race has a very long lifespan as well? Yep, dwarves.

No, elves do.

Tolkien Dwarves live to be 200+ years old. That's pretty long compared to some races.


And good point about the corprus, I forgot about that.
Still, the other similarities still stand... and you conveniently ignored them, I see.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #915 on: August 09, 2014, 09:45:13 PM »
Relative to other fictional settings. Obviously you're able to form opinions regarding what is and isn't generic, so I'd like to hear some examples of settings that aren't generic.

They're all generic. I'm not sure you understand the argument here.


I won't deny that the Dwemer are inspired in part by Tolkein's dwarfs, however, Dwemer are only a small part of Morrowind's setting. Nearly everything about Oblivion is generic. The landscape, the architecture, the fire and brimstone antagonist, etc. There's plenty of interesting stuff, but almost none of it is on the surface. That isn't necessarily a bad thing.

The Dwemer conversation is only a small part of Morrowind being generic, but one that some here seem to have the biggest beef with. We could talk about the "unique giant mushroom land" more if you like.

As for Dwemer being short: just play Morrowind. You see Dwemer ghosts and statues of Dwemer. Their height and proportions are nearly identical to that of the average Dunmer.

The ghosts could be holographs and the statues could be idolized. You're only seeing what the Dwemer wanted you to see.

Offline Blanko

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #916 on: August 09, 2014, 09:48:30 PM »
Morrowind's opening sequence starts in 16 Last Seed, 427, 10 AM. The dwarves disapeared in 1E 700. Yagrum Bagarn, the last dwemer in existence (from Morrowind), has been alive since the dissapearence of the dwarves, making him very very old.

He has corprus, so that doesn't say anything about the possible lifespan of Dwemer.

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Guess what Tolkien race has a very long lifespan as well? Yep, dwarves.

No, elves do.

Tolkien Dwarves live to be 200+ years old. That's pretty long compared to some races.

Still pretty fucking short compared to elves, no? If you're trying to make a point about lifespan, then surely Yagrum's would indicate being more akin to Tolkien's elves rather than dwarves. But of course, the fact that he has corprus nullifies that whole point.

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Still, the other similarities still stand... and you conveniently ignored him, I see.

Like I said, I'm just refuting the points that are incorrect.

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #917 on: August 09, 2014, 09:49:14 PM »
Relative to other fictional settings. Obviously you're able to form opinions regarding what is and isn't generic, so I'd like to hear some examples of settings that aren't generic.

They're all generic. I'm not sure you understand the argument here.

You've already said that Morrowind is more generic than Oblivion, so there's obviously some sort of scale that's more detailed than "they're all generic". I'll draw you a picture:

less generic <----------------Oblivion-------Morrowind----> more generic

I'm asking you what sort of settings you would place towards the left side.
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.

Ghost of V

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #918 on: August 09, 2014, 09:50:16 PM »
Morrowind's opening sequence starts in 16 Last Seed, 427, 10 AM. The dwarves disapeared in 1E 700. Yagrum Bagarn, the last dwemer in existence (from Morrowind), has been alive since the dissapearence of the dwarves, making him very very old.

He has corprus, so that doesn't say anything about the possible lifespan of Dwemer.

Quote
Guess what Tolkien race has a very long lifespan as well? Yep, dwarves.

No, elves do.

Tolkien Dwarves live to be 200+ years old. That's pretty long compared to some races.

Still pretty fucking short compared to elves, no? If you're trying to make a point about lifespan, then surely Yagrum's would indicate being more akin to Tolkien's elves rather than dwarves. But of course, the fact that he has corprus nullifies that whole point.

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Still, the other similarities still stand... and you conveniently ignored him, I see.

Like I said, I'm just refuting the points that are incorrect.

No one is talking about elves besides you. Corprus makes that entire argument irrelevant anyways, so that's a non-point.

Regardless, dwemer share more similarities with dwarves than they do with elves. That's abundantly clear.

Offline Blanko

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #919 on: August 09, 2014, 09:55:39 PM »
No one is talking about elves besides you.

Beardo is as well, and it's pretty important to talk about elves considering the Dwemer are elves.

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Regardless, dwemer share more similarities with dwarves than they do with elves. That's abundantly clear.

I disagree. They're inspired by dwarves, sure, but for the most part their lore is based on that of the Aldmer.