The Flat Earth Society
Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: 9 out of 10 doctors agree on April 21, 2018, 07:36:35 PM
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https://wiki.tfes.org/Atmolayer_Lip_Hypothesis
While Amonton's law makes clear the relation between temperature and pressure, a lack of pressure also can't keep in the normal atmosphere against diffusion. So how exactly does this "lip" hypothesis work?
Simple: it doesn't. There is no way for a finite flat Earth to contain an atmosphere that's 100 miles high without a physical barrier that's also 100 miles high. The nature of gases doesn't allow it.
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https://wiki.tfes.org/Atmolayer_Lip_Hypothesis
While Amonton's law makes clear the relation between temperature and pressure, a lack of pressure also can't keep in the normal atmosphere against diffusion. So how exactly does this "lip" hypothesis work?
Simple: it doesn't. There is no way for a finite flat Earth to contain an atmosphere that's 100 miles high without a physical barrier that's also 100 miles high. The nature of gases doesn't allow it.
Just another hint, Wiki contains an argument against his own theory:
In our local area the heat of the day comes from the sun, moving and swashing around wind currents between areas of low pressures and areas of high pressures with its heat.
Weather charts show the gradient of barometric pressure by the isobars. The smaller the distance between isobars, the higher the pressure gradient. You can estimate the wind force generated by the pressure gradient.
E.g. (at a latitude of about 50°N) a difference of 5 hectopascal = 5 millibar over a distance of about 100 (statute) miles will generate winds with gale force.
Now imagine a pressure difference of 1,000 millibar - normal pressure to zero.
And the relationship is not linear. To get half the wind speed, distance has to be more than doubled.
And wind speeds in high atmosphere, where pressure is lower, are significantly higher than near the ground.
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A video was added to the wiki link (https://wiki.tfes.org/Atmolayer_Lip_Hypothesis) in the OP. Look at what happens to the balloons in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vRMZSEF_a4
The atoms of the atmosphere would behave similarly if the temperature were as low. The movement of gasses does not even exist at that level.
How is air going to move from areas of high to low pressures, and then expelled out into space, if the movement of gasses cease at some point before the edge?
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How is air going to move from areas of high to low pressures, and then expelled out into space, if the movement of gasses cease at some point before the edge?
I don't know if gases are expelled out into space. If you make them cool enough, they condense, not moving anywhere.
But this results in zero pressure at that point.
Adiabatic: If gases are cooled, the pressure drops. So not only at this lip but alread in vicinity, pressure drops significantly due to temperature. The pressure gradient would produce gigantic storms, like no one has ever seen on earth.
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A video was added to the wiki link (https://wiki.tfes.org/Atmolayer_Lip_Hypothesis) in the OP. Look at what happens to the balloons in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vRMZSEF_a4
The atoms of the atmosphere would behave similarly if the temperature were as low. The movement of gasses does not even exist at that level.
How is air going to move from areas of high to low pressures, and then expelled out into space, if the movement of gasses cease at some point before the edge?
This is the second time I have seen you posted this video and as I pointed out to you the last time you posted it, the video is showing the exact effect you're saying wouldn't happen. The liquid nitrogen cools the air inside the balloon, that makes the pressure inside the balloon lower and the higher pressure air outside the balloon presses in and deflates the balloon.
The gasses would only stop moving at 0 kelvin, a temperature which has never been measured in space. The only ways of keeping an atmosphere above a flat earth are an infinite plane, so there's nowhere for them to leak too, or a physical dome to keep the atmosphere in.
If you have any empirical evidence for your hypothesis then I'd love to see it - as discussed, the video is not evidence, it shows the exact effect you're saying wouldn't happen.
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The gasses would only stop moving at 0 kelvin, a temperature which has never been measured in space.
0K is where all atomic movement stops -- as in when electrons stop orbiting.
We can clearly see in that video that the molecules in the balloons have basically dropped entirely and are not attempting to expand and fill their container.
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The gasses would only stop moving at 0 kelvin, a temperature which has never been measured in space.
0K is where all atomic movement stops -- as in when electrons stop orbiting.
We can clearly see in that video that the molecules in the balloons have basically dropped entirely and are not attempting to expand and fill their container.
Correct. The lower temperature causes a drop in pressure inside the balloon, the pressure outside the balloon is now higher and so pushes inwards causing the balloon to deflate. This is a demonstration that higher pressure will flow to lower pressure, this is why the atmosphere over a flat finite plane would leak over the sides.
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The gasses would only stop moving at 0 kelvin, a temperature which has never been measured in space.
0K is where all atomic movement stops -- as in when electrons stop orbiting.
We can clearly see in that video that the molecules in the balloons have basically dropped entirely and are not attempting to expand and fill their container.
Correct. The lower temperature causes a drop in pressure inside the balloon, the pressure outside the balloon is now higher and so pushes inwards causing the balloon to deflate. This is a demonstration that higher pressure will flow to lower pressure, this is why the atmosphere over a flat finite plane would leak over the sides.
How would it be able to transition into the thousands of miles of lower temperature if, due to the temperature, the atoms drop to the floor and the pressure no longer expands outwards?
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Wait. You think the balloons deflated because the atoms inside them dropped to the bottom of the balloon?
Wow...
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Wait. You think the balloons deflated because the atoms inside them dropped to the bottom of the balloon?
Wow...
They did drop to the bottom of the balloon. How could you say that they did not?
Are you saying that if this experiment were done in space/a vacuum that the balloon would stay inflated, no matter the temperature? This is what you are implying. You are implying that it is only the atmosphere around the balloon that is pushing it inwards. This means that the balloon would stay inflated if the experiment were done in space/a vacuum, which, considering the relationship between temperature and pressure, is obviously false.
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They did drop to the bottom of the balloon. How could you say that they did not?
Who said they don't drop to the bottom of the balloon? I only read a "Wow ..."
Are you saying that if this experiment were done in space/a vacuum ...
No one did the experiment in "space/a vacuum". The experiment in the video is clearly done at room temperature and pressure.
What you could learn from it, that the space previously occupied by the balloon is instantly replenished with air from the adjacent area.
How would it be able to transition into the thousands of miles of lower temperature if, due to the temperature, the atoms drop to the floor and the pressure no longer expands outwards?
Same with your "thousands of miles of lower temperature". This area will be refilled constantly from the adjacent area with higher pressure. The air will not leak "into space" but into this area, where it is lost, more or less similar as if gone to space.
Unless: You extend this area to infinity, so that the pressure gradient gets near zero.
Defining the exact length of the gradient would take some looking into, but at a significant distance past the edge of the Ice Wall temperatures will drop to a point where barometric pressure nears the zero mark. At this point, whether it be thousands or millions of miles beyond the Antarctic rim, ...
How wide should this area be?
I already had an example above. Pressure gradients of 5 millibar in 100 statute miles on weather charts can be translated to gale force winds. Total pressure difference is about 1000 millibar, which results in a distance of 20,000 miles, still producing gale force winds. So this distance has to be extended by far, so wiki could be right with millions of miles.
Any evidence for this? As pressure and temperature are decreasing this slow, a vast area around the rim could be explored.
BTW.: It's quite ridiculous to present an experiment with some 10 inch balloons, to be in any way analog to this hypothesis.
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They did drop to the bottom of the balloon. How could you say that they did not?
Who said they don't drop to the bottom of the balloon? I only read a "Wow ..."
If Tom thinks that the air molecules inside the balloon are dropping to the bottom of the balloon when the temperature decreases - as in the molecules are resting on the bottom edge of the balloon - then that deserves a “Wow!”. That is absolutely not what is happening. The molecules are whizzing around inside the balloon, they hit the sides of the balloon with a certain force, that is what air pressure is. When the temperature drops the molecules have less energy (heat is energy) so they move more slowly, hit the sides of the balloon less hard so the pressure inside the balloon drops. The atmospheric pressure doesn’t drop so the molecules outside the balloon are hitting the outside just as hard, that is what makes the balloon deflate. The molecules inside the balloon are still whizzing around inside, just not as fast. They’re not all sitting on the bottom of the balloon in a heap.
The experiment demonstrates that high pressure will flow into lower pressure, that is why the atmosphere would leak out of a flat earth unless there is a physical dome or some other force keeping the atmosphere in place (in real life that force is gravity of course). The experiment demonstrates the exact thing Tom says wouldn’t happen.
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They did drop to the bottom of the balloon. How could you say that they did not?
Who said they don't drop to the bottom of the balloon? I only read a "Wow ..."
If Tom thinks that the air molecules inside the balloon are dropping to the bottom of the balloon when the temperature decreases - as in the molecules are resting on the bottom edge of the balloon - then that deserves a “Wow!”. That is absolutely not what is happening. The molecules are whizzing around inside the balloon, they hit the sides of the balloon with a certain force, that is what air pressure is. When the temperature drops the molecules have less energy (heat is energy) so they move more slowly, hit the sides of the balloon less hard so the pressure inside the balloon drops. The atmospheric pressure doesn’t drop so the molecules outside the balloon are hitting the outside just as hard, that is what makes the balloon deflate. The molecules inside the balloon are still whizzing around inside, just not as fast. They’re not all sitting on the bottom of the balloon in a heap.
The experiment demonstrates that high pressure will flow into lower pressure, that is why the atmosphere would leak out of a flat earth unless there is a physical dome or some other force keeping the atmosphere in place (in real life that force is gravity of course). The experiment demonstrates the exact thing Tom says wouldn’t happen.
In order to move and equalize from one area to the next there needs to be heat in the system. Where is the heat coming from when the atmosphere attempts to equalize into the thousnds of miles of fridged outer tundreas?
The experiment demonstrates that temperature is related to pressure.
Very Cold = Barely Moving Atoms. This happens whether the balloon is surrounded by atmosphere or is in a vacuum. The temperature (and therefore pressure) gets so cold that the atoms freeze and drop out of the air entirely. Look what happens at Antarctica:
http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=219
For scientists living at the South Pole in the dead of winter it can get as cold as minus 80 degrees Celsius. This makes it very hard for them to breath outside without a special air supply. At such cold temperatures, the carbon dioxide freezes and drops out of the air.
Yes, the atmosphere does decrease in pressure and temperature until it literally drops out of the air. Yes, that is what is happening in this demonstration. It is already happening wherever those scientists are on Antarctica, and is generally the case in the Arctics as well.
As the atoms move outwards into the thousands of miles of fridged tundra, and temperatures gets colder and colder, they will freeze and drop.
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Another source:
https://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2014/06/03/antarctica-gets-cold-enough-to-freeze-co2/
Antarctica Gets Cold Enough To Freeze CO2
Posted on June 3, 2014 by stevengoddard
Last year, Antarctica reached -135ºF, which is 27ºF below the freezing point of CO2 at atmospheric pressure. This is cold enough to freeze CO2 right out of the air.
Other types of gasses:
Oxygen freezes at -360.9 °F, nitrogen at -346.18 °F, and argon at -308.7 °F.
Liquid Nitrogen Temperature Range: Between -320 °F and -346 °F
Liquid nitrogen can freeze atmospheric atoms right out of the air, and I would bet that Oxygen, while perhaps not technically frozen at Liquid Nitrogen levels, does not have the potential to stay airborn at that temperature. A little past that and it too becomes technically frozen.
From http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=219
The first gas to freeze would be water vapor. This is why the air is so dry in very cold places. Then carbon dioxide would freeze, and then nitrogen. The last gases to freeze would be oxygen and argon.
What evidence is there that frozen atoms can stay airborn?
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So Tom, how does any of this fit with your bi-polar model? This is your preferred model for the flat earth when it suits your argument, so where is the relevance of temperatures in Antartica?
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So Tom, how does any of this fit with your bi-polar model? This is your preferred model for the flat earth when it suits your argument, so where is the relevance of temperatures in Antartica?
There is an ice wall in the Bi-Polar model. Beyond the heat of the sun the waters and lands will naturally freeze. The ice wall just isn't Antarctica.
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Has anyone ever seen or documented this other ice wall that isn't Antartica? Is there perhaps an enormous naval presence preventing people from seeing it?
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Wait. You think the balloons deflated because the atoms inside them dropped to the bottom of the balloon?
Wow...
They did drop to the bottom of the balloon. How could you say that they did not?
Hi Tom. I have no scientific background, so I'm a blank slate for learning. If the atoms drop to the bottom of the balloon, then what takes their place at the top? Since nothing can come in or go out, what are the atoms heavier than?
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Yes, the atmosphere does decrease in pressure and temperature until it literally drops out of the air. Yes, that is what is happening in this demonstration. It is already happening wherever those scientists are on Antarctica, and is generally the case in the Arctics as well.
As the atoms move outwards into the thousands of miles of fridged tundra, and temperatures gets colder and colder, they will freeze and drop.
And what force is stopping the gas molecules over the earth from moving to this area, freezing and dropping?
Pressure will try and equalise. You have a heat source over the earth, the sun, you don't have a heat source elsewhere. So the pressure over the earth will be higher than in the " thousands of miles of frigid tundra" around it. What is stopping that high pressure from leaking into the low pressure?
Also, you have no evidence for this thousands of miles of frigid tundra even existing. By definition it's not something which has been explored or observed in any way.
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And what force is stopping the gas molecules over the earth from moving to this area, freezing and dropping?
Pressure will try and equalise. You have a heat source over the earth, the sun, you don't have a heat source elsewhere. So the pressure over the earth will be higher than in the " thousands of miles of frigid tundra" around it. What is stopping that high pressure from leaking into the low pressure?
Also, you have no evidence for this thousands of miles of frigid tundra even existing. By definition it's not something which has been explored or observed in any way.
Good point.
I think we have shown it should be closer to millions of miles of ever cooling tundra (since we do not observe gale force winds). With the 25,000 mile FE diameter containing oxygen up to at least 20 miles (in a gradient), we have created a pyramid of gasses that should try to flow down towards the Earth (because of the UA), and then out towards this hypothetical tundra. Homeostasis demands that these forces equalize.
I cannot estimate how long homeostasis would take for the atmolayer to thin out and equalize pressures, but I think it should be done by now.
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Yes, the atmosphere does decrease in pressure and temperature until it literally drops out of the air. Yes, that is what is happening in this demonstration. It is already happening wherever those scientists are on Antarctica, and is generally the case in the Arctics as well.
As the atoms move outwards into the thousands of miles of fridged tundra, and temperatures gets colder and colder, they will freeze and drop.
And what force is stopping the gas molecules over the earth from moving to this area, freezing and dropping?
Pressure will try and equalise. You have a heat source over the earth, the sun, you don't have a heat source elsewhere. So the pressure over the earth will be higher than in the " thousands of miles of frigid tundra" around it. What is stopping that high pressure from leaking into the low pressure?
Also, you have no evidence for this thousands of miles of frigid tundra even existing. By definition it's not something which has been explored or observed in any way.
As pressure decreases and atoms slow down due to the temperature, it also causes the atmosphere to collapse and squish. Antarctica, in fact, is already a much higher pressure than the inward latitudes. This acts as a "wall." Look at the Polar Highs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_High
The polar highs are areas of high atmospheric pressure around the north and south poles; the north polar high being the stronger one because land gains and loses heat more effectively than sea. The cold temperatures in the polar regions cause air to descend to create the high pressure (a process called subsidence), just as the warm temperatures around the equator cause air to rise to create the low pressure intertropical convergence zone. Rising air also occurs along bands of low pressure situated just below the polar highs around the 50th parallels of latitude. These extratropical convergence zones are occupied by the polar fronts where air masses of polar origin meet and clash with those of tropical or subtropical origin.[1] This convergence of rising air completes the vertical cycle around the polar cell in each latitudinal hemisphere. Closely related to this concept is the polar vortex.
Surface temperatures under the polar highs are the coldest on Earth, with no month having an average temperature above freezing. Regions under the polar high also experience very low levels of precipitation, which leads them to be known as "polar deserts".
When the atmosphere gets less dense, it lowers in elevation and is compressed against the earth.
What stops the high pressures of Antarctica escaping onto the lower pressures of the tropics is likely the same mechanism that keeps it from escaping into the outer fringes of the atmoplane.
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Yes, the atmosphere does decrease in pressure and temperature until it literally drops out of the air. Yes, that is what is happening in this demonstration. It is already happening wherever those scientists are on Antarctica, and is generally the case in the Arctics as well.
As the atoms move outwards into the thousands of miles of fridged tundra, and temperatures gets colder and colder, they will freeze and drop.
And what force is stopping the gas molecules over the earth from moving to this area, freezing and dropping?
Pressure will try and equalise. You have a heat source over the earth, the sun, you don't have a heat source elsewhere. So the pressure over the earth will be higher than in the " thousands of miles of frigid tundra" around it. What is stopping that high pressure from leaking into the low pressure?
Also, you have no evidence for this thousands of miles of frigid tundra even existing. By definition it's not something which has been explored or observed in any way.
Antarctica is already a much higher pressure than the inward latitudes. This acts as a "wall." As pressure decreases and atoms slow down due to the temperature, it also causes the atmosphere to collapse and squish. Look at the Polar Highs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_High
Polar highs are a RE phenomenon. Can you explain how you can get a polar high in the south pole? Is there a polar vortex rotating around the entire south pole ice wall? What's the height of the atmoplane at the ice rim? How can cold air descend at the south pole if it's a dome?
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Polar highs are a RE phenomenon. Can you explain how you can get a polar high in the south pole? Is there a polar vortex rotating around the entire south pole ice wall? What's the height of the atmoplane at the ice rim? How can cold air descend at the south pole if it's a dome?
How do the poles maintain their high pressures, without leaking into the low pressure areas of the tropics? We were told like 20 times in this thread that pressures always equalize.
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Polar highs are a RE phenomenon. Can you explain how you can get a polar high in the south pole? Is there a polar vortex rotating around the entire south pole ice wall? What's the height of the atmoplane at the ice rim? How can cold air descend at the south pole if it's a dome?
How do the poles maintain their high pressures, without leaking into the low pressure areas of the tropics? We were told like 20 times in this thread that pressures always equalize.
They do. The air just cycles back around due to the heat essentially.
https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/learning/atmosphere/global-circulation-patterns
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Polar highs are a RE phenomenon. Can you explain how you can get a polar high in the south pole? Is there a polar vortex rotating around the entire south pole ice wall? What's the height of the atmoplane at the ice rim? How can cold air descend at the south pole if it's a dome?
How do the poles maintain their high pressures, without leaking into the low pressure areas of the tropics? We were told like 20 times in this thread that pressures always equalize.
They do. The air just cycles back around due to the heat essentially.
https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/learning/atmosphere/global-circulation-patterns
If they did cycle and depressurize, then there should be no Polar High, right?
Those polar areas are of high pressure all year around. By "cycling" you are asserting that areas of low pressure are traveling into areas of high pressure, which is the opposite action of how we are told pressure equalizes. There clearly must something keeping the environment high pressure at the poles, that can counteract the want of the atmosphere to equalize.
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A video was added to the wiki link (https://wiki.tfes.org/Atmolayer_Lip_Hypothesis) in the OP. Look at what happens to the balloons in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vRMZSEF_a4
The atoms of the atmosphere would behave similarly if the temperature were as low. The movement of gasses does not even exist at that level.
How is air going to move from areas of high to low pressures, and then expelled out into space, if the movement of gasses cease at some point before the edge?
Hello, Thomas. Your statements are partially correct. Atoms that theoretically maintain a temperature of 0 Kelvin would not display motion. Temperature is, after all, simply the average kinetic energy of a (fluidic) system. Unfortunately, the idea of a gas at 0 K around the edges of a flat earth is not possible. There are a couple of reasons for this:
1. The only way to achieve 0 K is having a pure vacuum. Any atom is incapable of staying at 0 K, due to quantum mechanics. Not even outer space is at 0 K.
2. Even if the above reason was ignored, you cannot maintain a gas at 0 K if it is next to a gas that has a non-zero temperature. Collisions between the atoms will transfer kinetic energy and hence raise the temperature of the gas at the edge. Hence, any temperature gradient in the atmosphere will ruin a condition of zero-T gas at the edge, on timescales commensurate with the DeBroglie wavelength, about a microsecond for atoms in the air.
In short, the movement of gases is unavoidable. The only way to make a system 0 K is to remove all the gas!