41

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Another big Mass Shooting

« on: April 24, 2018, 03:54:44 AM »

You're right, you aren't.  Just like a sign that says "no parking" doesn't mean you won't get people parking there.  But the sign isn't there to stop everyone, the sign is there to tell you "it's not allowed and if we find out, you will be punished."

What good does that do when someone commits a mass shooting?

Probably the same as "Drug Free Zone."  Imagine if teachers could bring pot or alcohol into school.

Let me put it another way.  Without that sign, anyone can walk in with a gun strapped to their hip with no fear of being told they can't.  Which means every single one of them could start opening fire at any time.  But you can't stop them from entering.  Nope.  Gotta open that door for them.  So instead of having at least a reason to stop someone from entering with a gun, you gotta wait until they start shooting before you call the cops.  Like if I saw someone, carrying a gun, walk from the parking lot of my old school I'd be able to call the cops right away.  Without that gun free sign, I'd have to wait until they start shooting.  Also, it forces the shooter to conceal their gun before entering, which limits the guns they can carry.

Most criminals don't open carry anywhere and rifles are easy to spot. If a criminal wants to carry conceal there's nothing stopping him.

Which if the teacher is willing and passionate about defending himself and his class, wouldn't be that much of a load.

A lot of teachers are willing and passionate about protecting their students.  In fact, even in the parkland school shooting, the policies of "locking the door and hiding in a corner" worked super well.  The people who get shot now are those in the hall ways.  So what you're saying is we should give teachers guns so they can abandon their students and run off in the halls to find a shooter that could be another teacher or parent they know?

If not going to the threat then certainly barricading themselves and covering the door.

Right.
Like when cops shot an 11 year old who had a toy.

If you're talking about Tamir Rice, for one his airgun was indistinguishable from a real gun and he was pointing it at people. For another, As the officers approached Rice,  Rice made a quick draw motion.

The guy pointed the phone as if it was a firearm. As for why they didn't approach, you can still shoot while lying down.

These kinda prove my point.
1. Shooting a kid is never a good option.  I don't care if he does have a real gun with real bullets, you tackle him and hope you don't die when he fires. 

That's simply unrealistic. A person with a gun pointing it at people is a lethal threat and should be treated as such.
[/quote]
2. Cops must be in a state of hyper vigilance at all times on the job.  Each of these cases illustrate that no matter how much training you have, you're gotta shoot whoever you think can shoot you back.  So every single CCW teacher is now a target and cops WILL shoot first.  They're trained to.  Shoot first, figure out if they were innocent later.[/quote]

If that be the case then how come there aren't many cases of off duty cops being shot while responding to an armed subject?

Not really if the math teacher carries for most of his adult life.

Still take the cop. 

And that's fine. However If the school or department can't afford to assign a cop or if the cop was like the deputy at Parkland then allow staff to be armed as a last resort defense.

However some teachers possess the fortitude of a seasoned officer and I advocate those with the fortitude should be allowed to carry.

Again, fortitude is not the issue.  I've no doubt many CCW teachers could handle a gun.  My issue is that they shouldn't have to in a school, with an active shooter, while police are gonna come in.  It adds more guns to a situation that's already chaotic.

If they want to, they should be allowed to.

That's why they offer active shooter training for civilians.

I've seen those.
Rubbish.  The video simulator is better but even so, it's a bunch of stand up targets in a plywood covered area.  It lacks the other students, police, a moving shooter, etc...

Hate to break it to you, but most police training dealing with active shooter is no better. When I went through the academy they had the simulator and then something akin to paintball as our training.

If not moving as a group, then barricading the room you're in.

Which is what they do now.  And it's really effective.  The parkland kids who died?  Died cause they were not in the classroom (due to a fire alarm being pulled if I recall correctly).

Yet some died trying to prevent the shooter from entering some classrooms.

Which again, this can be mitigated by training and having familiarity on who are the teachers who are armed.

Yeah... sure... >_>
1. A teacher could be the shooter.
2. A student could be the shooter.
3. A police officer is familiar with a phone yet as you just told me, a quick motion, pointing something towards them, etc... causes the officer to shoot.  They have to decide to shoot or not in the span of a few hundred miliseconds.  So no, even if they memorized the name and faces of every armed teacher in the school, they're still gonna shoot.  It's how they're trained.  "See what could be gun or person going for a gun - shoot."  You figure out if they were gonna shoot at you after that.  That's how it is if you want to live.  It sucks.  It's stupid.  I think they should choose to die before killing but that's me.

Which again, if that be the case then how come we don't hear of police shooting off duty cops responding to the threat?

The coach you sacrificed his life had a CCW but couldn't carry it and he was far better than any of the deputies that responded.

Yep.  He was brave.  Still doesn't stop my point though: Cops would have shot him.

Your evidence? By the time police responded, the threat would've already been taken care of.

I believe I've answered this one.

Can you point out where?

It was a post in response to you. I beleive it was in the last page.

42

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Another big Mass Shooting

« on: April 19, 2018, 08:37:50 AM »

Which you aren't going to get with a sign that says "no guns."

You're right, you aren't.  Just like a sign that says "no parking" doesn't mean you won't get people parking there.  But the sign isn't there to stop everyone, the sign is there to tell you "it's not allowed and if we find out, you will be punished."

What good does that do when someone commits a mass shooting?

They don't need to be.

Yeah... they kinda do.  Police protect civillians from those who break the law.  They don't even punish law breakers, they just stop them.  The judges and courts punish them.  So when you say "Teacher, your job is to stop students from breaking the law but only when it comes to murder" well... it's still "stop law breakers" thus, cops.
And on top of grading papers, learning the new curriculum (if your state changed shit) and managing 30+ students.... you have to run into an active shooting situation and hope you hit the right person who is likely gonna fire back.

Which if the teacher is willing and passionate about defending himself and his class, wouldn't be that much of a load.

I beg to differ. Most "shooting unarmed people" incidents are justified. But leaving that aside, there really isn't much question when you hear multiple shots being fired whether or not you should shoot.

Right.
Like when cops shot an 11 year old who had a toy.

If you're talking about Tamir Rice, for one his airgun was indistinguishable from a real gun and he was pointing it at people. For another, As the officers approached Rice,  Rice made a quick draw motion.

Or the most recent, cops shot a man who had a cell phone in his hand. (shot him like 20 times) then stood around for 10-20 min. demanding he show his hands cause they couldn't see it over the tall grass and were too chicken shit to walk up to him.

The guy pointed the phone as if it was a firearm. As for why they didn't approach, you can still shoot while lying down.

Most cops go through their entire careers without ever shooting someone yet you want only them to respond in an active shooter incident?

I'll take a guy who literally signed up for the job to shoot others if needed over a guy who signed up to teach math.  Different mindset.

Not really if the math teacher carries for most of his adult life.

  The math teacher didn't go into teaching because he wants to save people, stop criminals, and do a dangerous job.  He went in to help students learn, and become better.  Or because they like summer break.  Whatever the reason, I can assure you: The reasons to become a teacher are not the same as the reasons to become a police officer. 

However some teachers possess the fortitude of a seasoned officer and I advocate those with the fortitude should be allowed to carry.

Clearing tactics and moving as a group isn't really that hard to learn. If suppose the shooter shoots one of the armed teachers, then the other teachers who are armed will be alerted and hold in place that gives him the best ambush angle. Also I don't want to force anyone to carry. If they want to then they should be able. If you already want to be armed then you already have the mindset of learning how to defend yourself and your students.

1. "group" tactics and moving requires coordination.  Mr. Stammens is in room 201 but Mr. Gaze is in the gym, on the other side of the building.  How the hell are they going to coordinate? And who in their right god damn mind is gonna leave their students in a room alone?

That's why they offer active shooter training for civilians.

2. If you don't force, you can't guarentee "group" tactics.

If not moving as a group, then barricading the room you're in.

3. What's the difference between a teacher with a gun, looking for the shooter and a shooter with a gun?  Nothing.  Absolultely nothing.  And if you think shooting an unarmed guy because he might have been holding a gun is justifiable, imagine what shooting an armed teacher with his gun out is gonna look like.

Which again, this can be mitigated by training and having familiarity on who are the teachers who are armed.

Again, it's far better than what happened in Parkland. And there are active shooter courses for civilians available.

Yes.  Or we can just station an officer in each school.  Done.  No need for teachers, who TEACH, to go on a hunt for an active shooter.  The parkland guy never went in.  He was either afraid or got the wrong info.  And he KNEW he might have to get shot at one day.  He had the training.  Why would a teacher be better than a police officer?

The coach you sacrificed his life had a CCW but couldn't carry it and he was far better than any of the deputies that responded.

They actually are already. We have lesd mass shootings now than what we had 20 years ago.

>_>
20 years ago was 1998.
Hold on, let me pull up the mass shootings in 1998.
(via wikipedia)
1998 - 4 (total)
2018 - 3 (so far)

1999 - 6
2017 - 18


Feel free to show me some other data because you reeally need to back up your claim.

I believe I've answered this one.

43

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Another big Mass Shooting

« on: April 13, 2018, 04:35:22 AM »

Yeah... Learn to quote.

Actually you messed up your response toward me. I thought the rest of your post was directed to someone else and skipped to the end which I messed up.

You're right, my appologies.
I'm not sure why it fucked up.  Spent a good 15 min trying to fix it. Seems like the quote tag is case sensitive now...

No worries.

44

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Another big Mass Shooting

« on: April 01, 2018, 11:17:17 PM »

Yeah... Learn to quote.

Actually you messed up your response toward me. I thought the rest of your post was directed to someone else and skipped to the end which I messed up.

45

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Another big Mass Shooting

« on: April 01, 2018, 11:14:07 PM »

@Luke you broke your quotes in your last post. Not sure what should read.

Not sure what I did there. It's the very bottom portion.

46

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Another big Mass Shooting

« on: April 01, 2018, 01:32:50 PM »

By the time the criminal is punished for bringing a gun into a gun free zone, he already committed the crime he intended to do as shown in the recent shooting.

47

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Another big Mass Shooting

« on: April 01, 2018, 01:31:11 PM »

Which you aren't going to get with a sign that says "no guns."

Why would a sign be saying "no guns" be the only anti-gun measurement?

No.

And we all know cops shoot unarmed people more often than the should. 

I beg to differ. Most "shooting unarmed people" incidents are justified. But leaving that aside, there really isn't much question when you hear multiple shots being fired whether or not you should shoot.

[citation needed]

What do you need?

48

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Another big Mass Shooting

« on: March 22, 2018, 11:28:59 PM »

it's still far better than having 17 dead.

Yes.  But so is 0.

Which you aren't going to get with a sign that says "no guns."

That only works if you know which teachers are armed and there's only one of them. if only ten teachers are armed then the other 9 will have a heads up and plan accordingly. These shooters aren't Navy SEAL operators.

And teachers aren't cops.

They don't need to be.

And we all know cops shoot unarmed people more often than the should. 

I beg to differ. Most "shooting unarmed people" incidents are justified. But leaving that aside, there really isn't much question when you hear multiple shots being fired whether or not you should shoot.

Do you really think a teacher with no real world experience in shooting people is going to do better? 

Most cops go through their entire careers without ever shooting someone yet you want only them to respond in an active shooter incident?

And how do 10 teachers coordinate and plan?  What, do all 10 leave their classes and students helpless while they go hunting for anyone in the halls who has a gun?  Also, will you force 10 teachers to have guns per school or just volunteer?

Clearing tactics and moving as a group isn't really that hard to learn. If suppose the shooter shoots one of the armed teachers, then the other teachers who are armed will be alerted and hold in place that gives him the best ambush angle. Also I don't want to force anyone to carry. If they want to then they should be able. If you already want to be armed then you already have the mindset of learning how to defend yourself and your students.

People will either duck, run back into the classrooms, or run away from the shooter. If the teacher hold in place and wait for the crowd to pass then he can engage him.

... Yes.  The teacher can hide until no one is left to shoot except the shooter, THEN jump out in the open and open fire.  You know that maryland shooting?  The cop and the shooter shot at each other simultaniously.  And that's a trained officer vs a kid with a pistol.  Imagine a trained (on a shooting range) teacher with a pistol vs a kid with an AR.  I'll take the AR anyday.

Again, it's far better than what happened in Parkland. And there are active shooter courses for civilians available.

Raising the age won't stop either this shooting or others. For one the average age of mass shooters is 34. Second, One of the Columbine shooters wasn't even old enough to vote.

It may stop some.  Very few, I admit, but some.  There is no "This law will fix everything".  We need many changes, many different things to chip away at all the various root causes because there are a LOT of them.  And eventually, mass shootings may be a rare event again. 

They actually are already. We have lesd mass shootings now than what we had 20 years ago.

49

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Another big Mass Shooting

« on: March 22, 2018, 10:28:27 AM »

Apparently, even God himself is trying to show people how stupid this idea is:


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/03/14/teacher-accidentally-discharges-firearm-in-calif-classroom-he-was-trained-in-gun-use/?utm_term=.6480ec92c6af


Basically, a well trained teacher was doing a gun safety course in class and the gun went off into the ceiling.

I kinda find the story rather suspect. But going with the story, that is one example and certainly doesn't represent the majority. In fact, CCW holders are more law abiding than police officers.

50

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Another big Mass Shooting

« on: March 22, 2018, 10:26:49 AM »

Holy shit, Trump is (maybe) bowing to pressure!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-21/bump-stock-prices-soar-after-trump-proposes-ban

Watch the video.  Even the NRA, on Fox News, agrees with addition regulations for bump stocks!

Banning bump stocks won't do anything. You can make your own from supplies from Home Depot.

I am aware.
Doesn't mean it isn't a step.  I can only hope its used as a springboard to other bans.

And you just validated my concerns as to why I'm not in favor of the ban. If you succeed with this, you won't be happy until you're three miles down the road.

I won't be happy until kids can go to school without having to worry they'll be shot at.


And if you feel your guns are more important than that, then you don't deserve a future.

I too want kids to go to school without worried about being shot. And I also value kids more tgan guns. However neither of those attributes means I'm going to support everything that you propose. Because I don't want kids shot is why I advocate for allowing staff to be trained and armed if they want. Because I value kids over firearms is the reason why I to abolish gun free zones especially gun free zones with no way of enforcing it like metal detectors.

But even if every teacher got a gun, was certified, and was the best damn shot in the world, it wouldn't stop a mass shooting from starting.  Kids WILL die because someone is gonna be first and only AFTER the first shot is fired and the first person killed will the alarm (hopefully) get sounded.

it's still far better than having 17 dead.

I mean, hell, if you know the teachers are armed, aim for them first then go for the kids.

That only works if you know which teachers are armed and there's only one of them. if only ten teachers are armed then the other 9 will have a heads up and plan accordingly. These shooters aren't Navy SEAL operators.

Or do it when the halls are crowded so the helpful teachers can't shoot back.

People will either duck, run back into the classrooms, or run away from the shooter. If the teacher hold in place and wait for the crowd to pass then he can engage him.

I worked at a school district whose high school had about 1,200 students. Every 45 mintues classes changed.  Every ring of that bell had 1,200 students walking through crowded halls.  And with an AR, ya don't even need to aim. 

The best solution is to stop it before it starts, not after.

I agree that we need to stop it before it starts.

I mean, Florida just signed a bill into law that did it.  The funny thing is, is that the teacher needs a huge amount of certification, drug tests, psych eval, etc... to do it.  But if I'm just some guy, I don't need all that to get a gun.  Kinda odd, isn't it?  That a normal person, who is likely to want to kill students, don't need to be checked, but the "good guy with a gun" teacher at the school does.

Raising the age won't stop either this shooting or others. For one the average age of mass shooters is 34. Second, One of the Columbine shooters wasn't even old enough to vote.

51

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Another big Mass Shooting

« on: March 11, 2018, 09:03:21 PM »

I do wonder how one could be considered to be sane and well-adjusted whilst owning 100,000 guns...

Surely a sane, well-adjusted person needs only the guns that they require. Let's say that they're an enthusiastic hunter and range shooter who lives in an area beset by home invasions and muggings, he'll need a couple of rifles or shotguns for hunting his prey (Preferably locked away without ammo) and a range of guns which can be safely stored at the range. Say a handgun for personal defence and a shotgun for home defence.

Does anyone realistically need any more weapons than that? If you're hoarding guns in your house I'd question just how well-adjusted you are anyway.

What if he just likes collecting them and the vast majority of his 100,000 guns are between 80-200 years old?  If you want to talk about need then really you don't need a parking lot full of cars either. We can all get by with a Prius or if you have a family a station wagon.

52

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Another big Mass Shooting

« on: March 11, 2018, 08:56:56 PM »

Holy shit, Trump is (maybe) bowing to pressure!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-21/bump-stock-prices-soar-after-trump-proposes-ban

Watch the video.  Even the NRA, on Fox News, agrees with addition regulations for bump stocks!

Banning bump stocks won't do anything. You can make your own from supplies from Home Depot.

I am aware.
Doesn't mean it isn't a step.  I can only hope its used as a springboard to other bans.

And you just validated my concerns as to why I'm not in favor of the ban. If you succeed with this, you won't be happy until you're three miles down the road.

I won't be happy until kids can go to school without having to worry they'll be shot at.


And if you feel your guns are more important than that, then you don't deserve a future.

I too want kids to go to school without worried about being shot. And I also value kids more tgan guns. However neither of those attributes means I'm going to support everything that you propose. Because I don't want kids shot is why I advocate for allowing staff to be trained and armed if they want. Because I value kids over firearms is the reason why I to abolish gun free zones especially gun free zones with no way of enforcing it like metal detectors.

53

Flat Earth Theory / Re: What is beyond the Ice Wall?

« on: February 23, 2018, 01:07:44 AM »

What are you doing?

This is a photo from a film of a snowmobile race across the ARCTIC.
As in, this is ten thousand miles away from the alleged ice wall.

Do you seriously think that a reasonably experienced ice climber couldn't scale that even if it were *the* ice wall?

http://wildbillsrun.com/#about-film

I never climbed a wall in my life but I'm willing to bet that if you gave me a two day course, I can scale that with relative ease.

54

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Another big Mass Shooting

« on: February 22, 2018, 03:44:11 PM »

Holy shit, Trump is (maybe) bowing to pressure!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-21/bump-stock-prices-soar-after-trump-proposes-ban

Watch the video.  Even the NRA, on Fox News, agrees with addition regulations for bump stocks!

Banning bump stocks won't do anything. You can make your own from supplies from Home Depot.

I am aware.
Doesn't mean it isn't a step.  I can only hope its used as a springboard to other bans.

And you just validated my concerns as to why I'm not in favor of the ban. If you succeed with this, you won't be happy until you're three miles down the road.

55

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Another big Mass Shooting

« on: February 22, 2018, 01:53:21 AM »

Holy shit, Trump is (maybe) bowing to pressure!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-21/bump-stock-prices-soar-after-trump-proposes-ban

Watch the video.  Even the NRA, on Fox News, agrees with addition regulations for bump stocks!

Banning bump stocks won't do anything. You can make your own from supplies from Home Depot.

As long as it makes anti-gun advocates think they're actually accomplishing anything, I'm fine with them getting banned.

The problem is they won't stop there. You and I have little use for bump stocks. However depending on the wording of the bill banning bump stocks, it can pratically ban all semi automatic firearms or at least ban lighter triggers and barrels.

56

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Another big Mass Shooting

« on: February 22, 2018, 12:57:57 AM »

Holy shit, Trump is (maybe) bowing to pressure!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-21/bump-stock-prices-soar-after-trump-proposes-ban

Watch the video.  Even the NRA, on Fox News, agrees with addition regulations for bump stocks!

Banning bump stocks won't do anything. You can make your own from supplies from Home Depot.

57

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Was the sandy hook shooting a hoax

« on: February 16, 2018, 06:51:16 AM »

To be honest, I used to believe Sandy Hook was a conspiracy too. Until I looked at counter arguments and took a six month course on police procedures.

58

Science & Alternative Science / Re: blackhole created the big bang.

« on: February 10, 2018, 03:41:03 PM »

Well as a Judeo-Christian you claim that God always existed. That seems just as likely as the universe always existing. Especially if you remove the time dimension from the equation. So really, is the question even relevant?

God exists outside of our dimension however matter exists within our dimension and therefore subject to our physical laws.

How did you come by this piece of knowledge?  How do you know God exists outside of any dimension?

Aside from the Bible, I don't know for a fact but I believe science infers it. Before quantum mechanics we thought what we see is all there is.

Where in the bible doesit talk about multi dimensional existence?

For one in Genesis where it talks about God creating the heavens and for another the very nature of how God, the angels, and demons are talked about in the Bible. It also talks about how God knows the ending from the beginng.

59

Science & Alternative Science / Re: blackhole created the big bang.

« on: February 02, 2018, 09:53:46 PM »

Well as a Judeo-Christian you claim that God always existed. That seems just as likely as the universe always existing. Especially if you remove the time dimension from the equation. So really, is the question even relevant?

God exists outside of our dimension however matter exists within our dimension and therefore subject to our physical laws.

How did you come by this piece of knowledge?  How do you know God exists outside of any dimension?

Aside from the Bible, I don't know for a fact but I believe science infers it. Before quantum mechanics we thought what we see is all there is.

60

Science & Alternative Science / Re: blackhole created the big bang.

« on: January 27, 2018, 03:53:04 AM »

Well as a Judeo-Christian you claim that God always existed. That seems just as likely as the universe always existing. Especially if you remove the time dimension from the equation. So really, is the question even relevant?

God exists outside of our dimension however matter exists within our dimension and therefore subject to our physical laws.