[Pete Svarrior]

Not sure what you're getting at.

If we're drawing spurious connections about the list of countries affected by the ban, we might as well go all in and claim that every single correlation is relevant.

[Lord Dave]

Not sure what you're getting at.

If we're drawing spurious connections about the list of countries affected by the ban, we might as well go all in and claim that every single correlation is relevant.

Yeah but the list you put up is most of the middle east and includes Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.  And forgive me if I'm wrong but aren't all those countries, countries that have been at war with Israel in the past?  With the exception of Pakistan.

[Pete Svarrior]

Saudi Arabia tends to get special treatment from the West for whatever reason. I disapprove of it, but it's hardly uncommon.

As for the rest, fair enough

[trekky0623]

The ACLU filed suit today because of the Muslim ban, on behalf of two Iraqi citizens with valid visas not being permitted entry, which they claim violates Fifth Amendment rights.

[Pete Svarrior]

What kind of visas are we talking about? My B1/B2 visa was issued with a clear disclaimer that it simply gives me the right to ask nicely to be let in - and that I may be denied entry despite having it.

Also, Fifth Amendment? Am I missing something? I thought the Fifth Amendment was about due process in courts. They haven't been unjustly convicted of a crime, have they?

[trekky0623]

What kind of visas are we talking about? My B1/B2 visa was issued with a clear disclaimer that it simply gives me the right to ask nicely to be let in - and that I may be denied entry despite having it.

Also, Fifth Amendment? Am I missing something? I thought the Fifth Amendment was about due process in courts. They haven't been unjustly convicted of a crime, have they?

The "nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" part is my guess. They are being held by immigration despite having valid visas, though SCOTUS's interpretation of the Constitution has been vague of exactly what rights are afforded to permanent residents, but it is not none.

[Pete Svarrior]

though SCOTUS's interpretation of the Constitution has been vague of exactly what rights are afforded to permanent residents, but it is not none.

I'm taking from this part of the sentence that they're green card holders, and not just crappy visa holders, yes?

[trekky0623]

though SCOTUS's interpretation of the Constitution has been vague of exactly what rights are afforded to permanent residents, but it is not none.

I'm taking from this part of the sentence that they're green card holders, and not just crappy visa holders, yes?

That was what my link on the previous page said. Green-card holders are being denied entry if they have a passport from one of the seven countries in the ban. That comes from the DHS (as well as the White House, now).

[Lord Dave]

What kind of visas are we talking about? My B1/B2 visa was issued with a clear disclaimer that it simply gives me the right to ask nicely to be let in - and that I may be denied entry despite having it.

Also, Fifth Amendment? Am I missing something? I thought the Fifth Amendment was about due process in courts. They haven't been unjustly convicted of a crime, have they?

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/28/politics/2-iraqis-file-lawsuit-after-being-detained-in-ny-due-to-travel-ban/

So apparently one of the men worked with the US army during the Iraq War as an interpreter and was granted a visa.  Another has family who are already in the US as refugees. 

[Rama Set]

Do green card holders or visa holders get constitutional protection?  Thought that was just for naturalized citizens.

[Pete Svarrior]

That was what my link on the previous page said. Green-card holders are being denied entry if they have a passport from one of the seven countries in the ban.

In particular, I was curious about the ACLU story, which I believe you didn't provide a link for.

According to the ACLU, these two are not green card holders.

[Pete Svarrior]

Do green card holders or visa holders get constitutional protection?

Green card holders, yes. Visa holders, depends.

[trekky0623]

In particular, I was curious about the ACLU story, which I believe you didn't provide a link for.

According to the ACLU, these two are not green card holders.

Gotcha, my mistake.

As far as I am aware, the fifth amendment's wording has been historically interpreted to mean that any person in the US is protected by it. This is bolstered by the 14th amendment, which makes explicit distinctions between citizens and all people, and due process is listed as a right for all people there. There is also precedent for immigrants stopped at the border being due fifth amendment rights.

[Lord Dave]

In particular, I was curious about the ACLU story, which I believe you didn't provide a link for.

According to the ACLU, these two are not green card holders.

Gotcha, my mistake.

As far as I am aware, the fifth amendment's wording has been historically interpreted to mean that any person in the US is protected by it. This is bolstered by the 14th amendment, which makes explicit distinctions between citizens and all people, and due process is listed as a right for all people there. There is also precedent for immigrants stopped at the border being due fifth amendment rights.

Ok so EOs are legally binding just like a law.  So it's like if Congress passed a law banning those people from entering.  But they were detained... which is kinda different than just banning, right?  I mean, you can ban someone from entering but not detain them.

[trekky0623]

I'm not a lawyer, but I would think it is different to deny visas to people from those countries versus denying entry to people who already have visas.

[Pete Svarrior]

I agree with LD - I think them being detained is an issue, but I'm somewhat confident that a visa does not guarantee you entry. I'm no expert on the matter, but I'm basing this from my own experience with US visas and the things the Consulate General told me to be aware of at the time.

Granted, it was something along the lines of "btw, not that this will ever happen haha, but technically we might still tell you to piss off at the border", but still. Immigrant visas may be different in that respect. If they are, fair enough.

[trekky0623]

Regardless of the legality, if there are any Trump supporters here that think the Muslim ban should not apply to permanent residents here, you should write the White House and let them know, because that is currently happening, at least until the DHS or the Trump administration clarifies what the heck is supposed to be going on.

[Lord Dave]

I agree with LD - I think them being detained is an issue, but I'm somewhat confident that a visa does not guarantee you entry. I'm no expert on the matter, but I'm basing this from my own experience with US visas and the things the Consulate General told me to be aware of at the time.

Granted, it was something along the lines of "btw, not that this will ever happen haha, but technically we might still tell you to piss off at the border", but still. Immigrant visas may be different in that respect. If they are, fair enough.

They aren't different but they generally need a reason to deny your visa.  They can't just say ... "Yeah, see, I decided I don't like Muslims so we're canceling your visa."

[Lord Dave]

Trump is spamming me for campaign money for the Republican Party.


I'm like... Wft?  Election's over.  Why are you asking now?

[Rama Set]

I agree with LD - I think them being detained is an issue, but I'm somewhat confident that a visa does not guarantee you entry. I'm no expert on the matter, but I'm basing this from my own experience with US visas and the things the Consulate General told me to be aware of at the time.

Granted, it was something along the lines of "btw, not that this will ever happen haha, but technically we might still tell you to piss off at the border", but still. Immigrant visas may be different in that respect. If they are, fair enough.

They aren't different but they generally need a reason to deny your visa.  They can't just say ... "Yeah, see, I decided I don't like Muslims so we're canceling your visa."

Customs can deny you entry because they don't like the cut of your jib, nevermind your religion.