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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #60 on: July 10, 2020, 09:37:23 PM »
If you take 1 foot of string and hold it out, it will of course point up.

Why should it point up? If there was a 1 foot long green arrow floating in your outstretched hand pointing at the Sun behind you at the horizon it would point at the Sun behind you at the horizon.

If you have only 1 foot of string, and hold it perpendicular to the moons shadow on your visual plane, it will point up relative to your perspective regardless whether or not it is also pointing at or away from you relative to the 2nd dimension - I'm confused now... why are you now arguing against something you were arguing for just a page ago?

Well, you seem to be admitting that it is possible to get the string to point upwards like in my last diagram.

Say you hold out a laser pointer up against the moon like your short piece of string and get the laser pointer to point upwards. Assuming no atmosphere absorbency, if you could turn it on would its photons broadcast out into to space away from the earth or would they curve around on the celestial sphere and hit the sun on the horizon behind you?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 09:42:34 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline timterroo

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #61 on: July 10, 2020, 10:14:17 PM »
If you take 1 foot of string and hold it out, it will of course point up.

Why should it point up? If there was a 1 foot long green arrow floating in your outstretched hand pointing at the Sun behind you at the horizon it would point at the Sun behind you at the horizon.

If you have only 1 foot of string, and hold it perpendicular to the moons shadow on your visual plane, it will point up relative to your perspective regardless whether or not it is also pointing at or away from you relative to the 2nd dimension - I'm confused now... why are you now arguing against something you were arguing for just a page ago?

Well, you seem to be admitting that it is possible to get the string to point upwards like in my last diagram.

Say you hold out a laser pointer up against the moon like your short piece of string and get the laser pointer to point upwards. Assuming no atmosphere absorbency, if you could turn it on would its photons broadcast out into to space away from the earth or would they curve around on the celestial sphere and hit the sun on the horizon behind you?

The short answer is it would shoot up into the sky. The reason for this is tied to your cone example. I would like some time to figure out a way to explain what is I’m trying to say so I will leave it at this for now.
"noche te ipsum"

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #62 on: July 10, 2020, 10:39:59 PM »
Say you hold out a laser pointer up against the moon like your short piece of string and get the laser pointer to point upwards. Assuming no atmosphere absorbency, if you could turn it on would its photons broadcast out into to space away from the earth or would they curve around on the celestial sphere and hit the sun on the horizon behind you?

That would depend.

You, the Moon and the Sun form three points of a triangle. A triangle is a planar figure.

If you look at the Moon, or the Sun, you are looking along this plane of the triangle. You're not looking above or below it.

If, while looking at the Moon, you hold string, rod, or laser point up such that it is perpendicular to the Moon terminator, then any of those will be in alignment with the side (EDIT sides and plane) of the triangle, as viewed from your position behind the string, rod or laser line.

In order for your laser to point at the Sun, you need to hold it broadly parallel to the line (EDIT /side) of the triangle connecting Moon and Sun in order for it to point at the Sun. You could align it to miss the Sun, and it would still look as though it were perpendicular to the terminator from your viewpoint.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 10:22:59 AM by Tumeni »
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Offline timterroo

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #63 on: July 10, 2020, 10:48:37 PM »
Say you hold out a laser pointer up against the moon like your short piece of string and get the laser pointer to point upwards. Assuming no atmosphere absorbency, if you could turn it on would its photons broadcast out into to space away from the earth or would they curve around on the celestial sphere and hit the sun on the horizon behind you?

That would depend.

You, the Moon and the Sun form three points of a triangle. A triangle is a planar figure.

If you look at the Moon, or the Sun, you are looking along this plane of the triangle. You're not looking above or below it.

If, while looking at the Moon, you hold string, rod, or laser point up such that it is perpendicular to the Moon terminator, then any of those will be in alignment with the side of the triangle, as viewed from your position behind the string, rod or laser line.

In order for your laser to point at the Sun, you need to hold it broadly parallel to the line of the triangle connecting Moon and Sun in order for it to point at the Sun. You could align it to miss the Sun, and it would still look as though it were perpendicular to the terminator from your viewpoint.

This is a good explanation of what I am trying (and miserably failing) to say.

Tom, the laser pointer has inspired me as well, so let me attempt to explain it this way:

If you hold the laser pointer out in front of you from a standing position, basically vertical to the ground and parallel to your body, you can line it up perpendicularly to the moons shadow and the laser beam will shoot up into the void of space.

If you angle the laser pointer towards yourself (on the plane of the triangle Tumeni mentioned), and point it up over your head (you might have to lay on the ground and hold the pointer parallel to the ground), you can still line it up to be perpendicular to the moons shadow and it will now point toward the horizon and sun.

This was also demonstrated by your cone example in which you can change the angle on one plane, and still be perpendicular on another plane.

Furthermore, if you can imagine a scenario where this is possible, you can imagine it is POSSIBLE that the sun's light is pointing along that path towards the moon.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 11:01:08 PM by timterroo »
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #64 on: July 11, 2020, 09:34:42 PM »
Say you hold out a laser pointer up against the moon like your short piece of string and get the laser pointer to point upwards. Assuming no atmosphere absorbency, if you could turn it on would its photons broadcast out into to space away from the earth or would they curve around on the celestial sphere and hit the sun on the horizon behind you?
Right. So you're going to have to define what you mean by "upwards". That might sound like a ridiculous request, but the whole point of this illusion is that it only appears that the moon's terminator points upwards. You surely must be familiar with optical illusions, our brains can be easily fooled in certain situations. If you had a laser pointer on a day when this optical illusion occurs and you lined it up with the moon such that the laser shines perpendicular to the moon's terminator then if you could see it the laser line would intersect the sun. I know it doesn't look like it should but that is literally what is meant by an optical illusion.

Let's see if this helps. Here's a row of streetlights.



Because of perspective they get taller as they get nearer to you and so the line made by the light bulbs angles upwards from left to right, yes?
Assuming  the row of lights continues if you turn your head to the right you would see the lights recede into the distance apparently getting smaller and lower as they go. So in that direction the line made by the light bulbs angles upwards from right to left. Agreed?
But what in reality does the line between all those lightbulbs look like? Assuming the lamps are all the same height and the road is straight it's a straight line, it's only perspective that makes it appear to be more of arc.

I think I realised what you've done when investigating this illusion. You simply stretched a bit of string out perpendicular to the terminator but you've only stretched it a short distance, inferred that the short length of string shoots off into space and you haven't stretched the string any further to determine where the line actually continues. Had you done so you'd have realised that it does point to the sun. You say that what you did is a better experiment but it's actually worse. It's worse because you are trying to infer where the line will continue rather than extending the string and finding out where it continues. We are pretty terrible at that sort of thing as demonstrated by the Poggendorff illusion. If you continue the black line through the occluding grey bar, which line is the correct continuance of it.
 


Most people perceive it as the blue line when in fact it is the red which you can easily demonstrate by drawing a contrasting line on top of the black one to see which line continues the straight line:



You are inferring the line shoots off into space because that's what it looks like. But that's the exact point of this optical illusion. The only way to find out where the line really goes is to stretch enough string to find out. Do that and you'll see that contrary to appearances the line does indeed hit the sun.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 09:42:29 PM by AllAroundTheWorld »
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2020, 10:31:00 PM »
Since the Sun is on the horizon behind you, the only way to get a laser pointer to shine at it is if the laser pointer was being held parallel to the horizon and Earth surface.

Are you suggesting that if you hold a pencil out up against the Moon during the Moon Tilt Illusion when the Sun is on the horizon behind you that it would always be aligned along the Earth surface and horizon?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 03:10:42 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline timterroo

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #66 on: July 12, 2020, 01:15:39 AM »
Since the Sun is on the horizon behind you, the only way to get a laser pointer to shine at it is if the laser pointer was being held parallel to the horizon and Earth surface.

Are you suggesting that if you hold a pencil out up against the Moon during the Moon Tilt Illusion when the Sun is on the horizon that it would always be aligned along the Earth surface and horizon?

I am suggesting that it is possible to position the laser pointer so that it will point toward the sun and be lined up perpendicular to the moons tilted shadow.
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Offline GreatATuin

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #67 on: July 12, 2020, 07:13:31 AM »
Let's see if this helps. Here's a row of streetlights.



Because of perspective they get taller as they get nearer to you and so the line made by the light bulbs angles upwards from left to right, yes?


Aha! The line shoots right into space! Those streetlights makers have been lying to us all along!

Tom, why do you even expect the lunar terminator to point at the position of the Sun in the sky? Think of the streetlights and watch this 5 seconds video:

« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 07:29:02 AM by GreatATuin »
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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #68 on: July 12, 2020, 08:26:15 AM »
Since the Sun is on the horizon behind you, the only way to get a laser pointer to shine at it is if the laser pointer was being held parallel to the horizon and Earth surface.

Are you suggesting that if you hold a pencil out up against the Moon during the Moon Tilt Illusion when the Sun is on the horizon behind you that it would always be aligned along the Earth surface and horizon?
I’m suggesting that that if you hold a pencil perpendicular to the moon’s terminator and continue in a straight line from the point of the pencil then that line will intersect the sun.
I know it doesn’t look like it will. That’s what optical illusion means. But it does. I know it does because I’ve tried it with a piece of string held taut so it is in a straight line.

All you have done, if I’m understanding correctly, is held a short bit of string up and tried to guess where the line will continue.
That is the logical equivalent of deciding that in the  Poggendorff illusion the blue line is a continuation of the black one (which is how most people perceive it), drawing the yellow dotted line but only part way into the grey occluding bar, deciding that it still looks like the yellow line is going to meet the blue one and not investigating further. The only way of actually seeing where the line goes is to stretch more string out and find out. That’s what Bobby did, that’s what I have done. I suggest you have a go.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2020, 09:01:51 AM »
Let me get this straight

1. You claim that if we hold a laser pointer up to the ascending line of street lights that the beams will shine out upwards into space, and not at the horizon behind you, because the upwards ascent is an illusion.

2. You also think that the Moon Tilt Illusion is the same sort of upwards pointing perspective trick.

3. Yet you also think that if you hold a string or straight line against the Moon that it will point at the Sun on the opposite horizon behind you.

What is the deal with that? Sounds like a bit of a contradiction to me.

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Offline GreatATuin

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2020, 09:39:56 AM »
Can you hold a string to be perfectly aligned with the streetlights?

Can you see the line of streetlights pointing upwards, when you know it's actually horizontal?

If you answer yes to both questions, why do you expect the Moon terminator to point at the direction of the Sun in the sky?
Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #71 on: July 12, 2020, 12:18:03 PM »
1. You claim that if we hold a laser pointer up to the ascending line of street lights that the beams will shine out upwards into space, and not at the horizon behind you, because the upwards ascent is an illusion.

No. My claim is that the laser pointer isn't actually pointing up into space at all. The line of street lights merely looks like it is because of perspective. You know this because if you turn your head it looks like the line is pointing "up into space" in the other direction. The reality is the top of the lights is parallel to the ground, therefore the laser pointer is too. It only appears to shine upwards for the same reason the line of lights appear to - perspective. It's easy to prove this. Took me 5 minutes in the garden. I used my fence as the row of lights and lined up a string parallel to the top of the fence. Looking left:



The string "shoots off into space". Except it doesn't. That's just perspective. If you look straight in front of you then you'll see the reality, the string is actually parallel to the ground, as is the top of the fence.



Quote
2. You also think that the Moon Tilt Illusion is the same sort of upwards pointing perspective trick.

Exactly. And the way to prove that is to stretch out a string perpendicular to the terminator and note that it points at the sun.
I know it doesn't look like it will, that's literally what optical illusion means. But the reality is, it does.

Quote
3. Yet you also think that if you hold a string or straight line against the Moon that it will point at the Sun on the opposite horizon behind you.

It's not me just thinking it. I've tried it and found that it does. I suggest you do the same.

I think the apparent contradiction you see is because you have misunderstood my post. Hopefully this one clarifies things.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #72 on: July 12, 2020, 12:31:14 PM »
1. You claim that if we hold a laser pointer up to the ascending line of street lights that the beams will shine out upwards into space, and not at the horizon behind you, because the upwards ascent is an illusion.

Draw a line across the (presumed to be all at the same level) lights, and that line continued to the right and behind the observer appears to ascend, and the continuation to the left, away from the photographer appears to descend.

It's an illusion. You know the light columns are not getting shorter. You know that the lights in the distance are not resting on the ground. You know that the ones behind the observer are not taller than those in view. It's an illusion.

EDIT to add image and comment below



If there's more lights behind the observer, and he turns around, they will then appear to descend toward the ground, not ascend. The illusion depends on where the observer observes from, and in which direction he/she looks. Agree?

« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 12:39:01 PM by Tumeni »
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Nearly?

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #73 on: July 12, 2020, 12:47:56 PM »
Right. And the important thing to note, Tumeni, is that those two lines you have drawn are, in reality, parallel to each other and to the ground.
I know they don't look like it, but...perspective.
If you shone a laser or stretched a string along those lines then you'd find when you looked at the light/string straight on that it was in fact parallel to the ground. That's what my little experiment demonstrates.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #74 on: July 12, 2020, 05:45:14 PM »
You seem to be arguing that it is possible to hold the laser pointer in such a way that it is parallel to the ground and seems to match the upward angle of the ascending lamps. You are making a perspective effect with the laser pointer by holding it in a special way and position from your eye so that the laser pointer's body seems to point upwards. But there are multiple ways to hold that laser pointer.

If you are standing in line with a row of lamp posts, for example, the line of lamps points straight upwards:



There are multiple way to angle the laser pointer to match that:



In the bottom position we have your method of specifically trying to make a perspective effect with the laser pointer body.

This is the problem we saw before, there is no way to know which angle is correct. Both positions can seem to match the scene. Only by using outside and pre-determined knowledge of the lamp configuration (or by using perspective clues), do we know which position matches the scene.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 06:07:00 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline timterroo

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #75 on: July 12, 2020, 06:06:08 PM »
You seem to be arguing that it is possible to hold the laser pointer in such a way that it is parallel to the ground and seems to match the upward angle of the ascending lamps. You are making a perspective effect with the laser pointer by holding it in a special way and position from your eye so that the laser pointer's body seems to point upwards. But there are multiple ways to hold that laser pointer.

If you are standing in line with a row of lamp posts, for example, the line of lamps points straight upwards:



There are multiple way to angle the laser pointer to match that:



In the bottom position we have your method of specifically trying to make a perspective effect with the laser pointer body.

This is the problem we saw before, there is no way to know which angle is correct. Both positions can seem to match the scene. Only by using outside and pre-determined knowledge of the lamp configuration (or by using perspective clues), do we know which position matches the scene.

Since you can admit and believe that the laser pointer can be positioned parallel AND match the upward angle of the lamps, why is it so hard to believe this same effect is happening with the moon?
"noche te ipsum"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #76 on: July 12, 2020, 06:16:52 PM »
It is also possible that those lamps in a line with us from my last illustration are actually of different increasing heights as they approach, and that the line of lamps coming towards us actually does point upwards. The laser/string experiment cannot distinguish between that. AATW would still use a perspective effect with the laser pointer to make a earth-parallel laser pointer appear to point upwards, and he would still declare that the earth-parallel laser pointer proves that the lamps are parallel with the earth.

It's not so much of what is possible. People keep insisting that this string experiment demonstrates something.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 08:47:54 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline GreatATuin

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #77 on: July 12, 2020, 06:57:50 PM »
It is also possible that those lamps in a line with us from my last illustration are actually of different increasing heights as they approach, and that the line of lamps coming towards us actually does point upwards. The laser/string experiment cannot distinguish between that. AATW would still use a perspective effect to make a earth-parallel laser pointer appear to point upwards, and he would still declare that the earth-parallel laser pointer proves that the lamps are parallel.

It's not so much of what is possible. People keep insisting that this string experiment demonstrates something.

The string experiment shows that the "tilt" is exactly what you would expect because of perspective. Just like if you hold the string along the streetlights line.

If the string aligns, there are two possibilities: either it is actually caused by perspective, either by a coincidence, it exactly matches that. In the case of the streetlights, either they are actually aligned and the same height, and the perspective causes the perceived angle, either they are of different height and positioned in such a way they appear exactly as if they were the same height. This is what they do to create perspective illusions such as the ones found on this link: https://gizmodo.com/these-super-fun-illusions-really-messes-with-your-persp-1725059895 , but it only works from a certain angle.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #78 on: July 12, 2020, 07:29:06 PM »
In my last diagram it was possible to angle the laser pointer even straight upwards and get it to match the scene.

The Sun and Moon aren't on random locations in the sky. The Sun and Moon follow the ecliptic. They follow near the same path. It's possible to get a string to point a Sun at a number of points on the ecliptic, just like the laser pointer can point in a large range of motion from my last diagram.



So really, this string stuff is really rather erroneous and does not demonstrate where the Moon is actually pointing.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 07:49:06 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #79 on: July 12, 2020, 07:36:14 PM »
The explanation for the Moon Tilt Illusion in RE is an effect of perspective.

When viewing the Moon Tilt Illusion, the Moon will often be tilted upwards:





RE Theorists explain this as result of a perspective effect (my emphasis)


I've searched for RE explanations of how extreme perspective changes explain the Moon Tilt Illusion, but found none so far. If the OP can supply some examples (other than copypasta from the wiki) I'd be obliged.

Regarding the apparent illusion, and if I read the FE explanation correctly, this is accounted for by Electromagnetic Acceleration affecting the light from Sun and Moon as we see them from Earth's surface. This implies to me that near dawn with a waning gibbous moon, or near sunset with a waxing gibbous moon, the light from the sun (just above the horizon) is most affected by EA while the light from the moon (fairly high in the sky) is much less affected by EA, thus accounting for the apparent anomaly where the moon's terminator doesn't appear to accurately indicate the sun's position. But is the anomaly real?

Every schoolboy should know the following experiment, and if you haven't tried it I urge you to do it. On such a morning described, go outside and hold a golf ball, ping-pong ball or similar in line with the moon and compare the shadow on the ball with that on the moon's face. The two will match.

Quote
The Ping Pong Perspective

Holding a white ball at arm’s length in the direction of the Moon shows how lunar phases depend on where the Moon is in the sky with respect to the Sun. S&T: J. Kelly Beatty



The Moon's phases are actually related to orbital motion, and there's a simple and fun observation that shows how they're connected. All you'll need is a Ping-Pong ball to simulate the Moon—actually, any small, white sphere would work. Then head outside about an hour before sunset, or around the time of a first-quarter Moon. Find the Moon in the southern part of the sky, then hold the ball up at arm's length right beside it.

You'll see that the ball shows exactly the same phase as the Moon. The Sun illuminates both the ball and the Moon from the same direction, and you see them as partly sunlit and partly in shadow, their bright and dark portions mimicking each other perfectly. If the weather stays clear, you can repeat this observation on the next several afternoons. Each day the Moon's orbital motion has carried it farther east, and the sunlit portion of its disk has grown larger. If you hold your ball up near the Moon, you'll see that its “phase” has thickened too.

To sneak a preview of the Moon's appearance in the days to come, simply move the ball farther east. And if you move it all the way over so your arm points low in the eastern sky, the side of the ball that's facing you will be almost completely illuminated — nearly a “Full Ball,” so to speak. And, sure enough, a day or two before full Moon, the Moon hangs low in the eastern sky just before sunset and is almost completely illuminated.

https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-resources/what-are-the-phases-of-the-moon/
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.