Sunrise, Sunset, Swiftly Flow the Days
« on: December 09, 2017, 05:57:52 AM »
As I've been researching, it seems that we all make cases assuming we are right, then argue points from that standing. But few/none are independently verifiable when based solely on observation.
  • You say UA, I say gravity.
  • Light travels straight across Monterrey Bay, I say it refracts in the atmosphere.
  • You say the sun is a spotlight, I say the dark side faces away from the sun.
  • I say plane routes are the reported distance, you say planes must somehow fly faster in the southern hemisphere.
  • I say the sun disappears behind the horizon, you say it gets too far to see.
...I could probably keep going, but I've made my point. We keep yelling arguments while never giving ground on our basic assumption. My favorite post to read so far was one from Tom Bishop, which used "might" and "possible" 8-10 times in a single paragraph. In effect, "the earth has to be flat so I must make a conjecture about everything that I can't explain," instead of, "you make a good point, maybe I should reevaluate my assumptions." (Tom's post is just an example, round-earthers do the same thing)


Now, at the risk of sounding hypocritical, I'd like to present a case where I believe observations can lead to only one conclusion. For a moment, I'm going to accept everything about the Flat Earth. Most importantly:
  • Latitude is the angle of the sun at equinox.
  • The sun rotates arund the north pole, and is centered between it and the north pole at equinox.
  • The sunset is a result of the sun being too far too see (both size, and travel of light through the atmosphere)

Consider this map:


  • I have not tried to place continents, as they are immaterial.
  • Montreal, Iquitos, and Valdivia have been placed according to their latitude.
  • On the day of the equinox, all three cities have the same sunrise, so I've positioned their longitude accordingly, given the circle/spotlight of the sun.

Now, those cities can't move. So let's see what happens when we advance the sun by 90 degrees (6 hours)



A few observations
  • It's sunset in Valdivia, despite being 2:00PM. (Remember, the sun only moved 6 hours)
  • It's still broad daylight in Montreal, even though it's supposed to have the same sunset time.
  • Same story as Montreal for Iquitos. The sun sets at the same time as Valdivia, but the city is clearly still in broad daylight.

Conclusion: I would argue that the only reasonable explanation (other than a round earth) is the "spotlight" isn't actually a circle on the ground. Except that means the sun's rays don't follow a mathematically consistent vanishing point or dissipation in the atmosphere. So really:
  • To have the correct sunrise & latitude on a flat earth, these cities must be at these coordinates.
  • At these coordinates, they cannot also have the same sunset.
  • Therefore, the earth cannot be flat.

QED


Re: Sunrise, Sunset, Swiftly Flow the Days
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2017, 04:44:59 PM »
Great Post...I actually had a very similar post on a different forum (although yours was WAY more developed and thought out than mine), and the responses I received were about what you would expect from FEers...the typical pseudo-science babble they always resort to when painted into a corner. Actually, calling it pseudo-science gives it too much credit, it is more complete nonsense wrapped in a blanket of scientific jargon.

Anyway, I am not sure what your reasons are for engaging these people...for me it is combination of boredom and entertainment value (I am new to these forums, but well versed on "debating" these folks). I long ago came to the conclusion that there are 3 types of FEers: The trolls, The Fundamentalists  trying to justify a completely biblical interpretation of the universe, and the ignorant masses. SO here is the problem with a post like yours, as awesome as it is: The trolls...well they're trolls so who cares, the Fundies are so brainwashed they will always invent new "science" to contradict any evidence you have, and the ignorant masses are to dumb to understand anything you said. Hell, the ignorant masses are too dumb to explain why they believe in a flat earth other than, "I saw it on youtube", and "the earth is flat because it looks flat".

Anyway, enough rambling from me...good post.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Sunrise, Sunset, Swiftly Flow the Days
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2017, 05:01:27 PM »
Firstly, before we engage with this, do you have any actual evidence, outside of a theoretical sun calculator and specious ad hominem fallacies, that these points really do see exactly 12 hour days at that time as proposed by the Round Earth model?

Re: Sunrise, Sunset, Swiftly Flow the Days
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2017, 06:04:53 PM »
Firstly, before we engage with this, do you have any actual evidence, outside of a theoretical sun calculator and specious ad hominem fallacies, that these points really do see exactly 12 hour days at that time as proposed by the Round Earth model?
A starting point would be for you to confirm that timeanddate.com are correct for your location.

Re: Sunrise, Sunset, Swiftly Flow the Days
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2017, 06:15:15 PM »
Firstly, before we engage with this, do you have any actual evidence, outside of a theoretical sun calculator and specious ad hominem fallacies, that these points really do see exactly 12 hour days at that time as proposed by the Round Earth model?

No personal attacks were intended, merely a general observation of responses I see from both sides. My intent was to head off any assumptions in either my own argument or any rebuttals. As to the specific post I mentioned, I will have to search my history for it, which I can't do at the moment.

I used timeanddate.com, and as no one has ever made the case that times of sunrise/sunset are inaccurate (just the mechanism by which it rises/sets) I will count that as evidence enough. (I'm sure I could find more if you really want it, but I expect the same data.)

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Sunrise, Sunset, Swiftly Flow the Days
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2017, 06:37:33 PM »
I used timeanddate.com, and as no one has ever made the case that times of sunrise/sunset are inaccurate.

I believe I had requested actual evidence. Pointing out that we have no evidence to the true or falseness of a theory is not evidence that it is true.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 06:40:32 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Sunrise, Sunset, Swiftly Flow the Days
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2017, 06:52:01 PM »
I used timeanddate.com, and as no one has ever made the case that times of sunrise/sunset are inaccurate.

I believe I had requested actual evidence. Pointing out that we have no evidence to the true or falseness of a theory is not evidence that it is true.
Please define exactly what you would accept as actual evidence.

Offline mtnman

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Re: Sunrise, Sunset, Swiftly Flow the Days
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2017, 06:58:23 PM »
I used timeanddate.com, and as no one has ever made the case that times of sunrise/sunset are inaccurate.

I believe I had requested actual evidence. Pointing out that we have no evidence to the true or falseness of a theory is not evidence that it is true.
I used timeanddate.com to check sunset times every day of my last trip to the beach. Was accurate every time. There you go.

But seriously, how do you envision this evidence? Suppose forum users validate the predicted times against actual times on a given weekday for 6 weeks and found it was correct. Would you then accept that the sites predictions were accurate? If not, please outline an experimental basis on which you would accept it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Sunrise, Sunset, Swiftly Flow the Days
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2017, 07:08:29 PM »
I used timeanddate.com, and as no one has ever made the case that times of sunrise/sunset are inaccurate.

I believe I had requested actual evidence. Pointing out that we have no evidence to the true or falseness of a theory is not evidence that it is true.
I used timeanddate.com to check sunset times every day of my last trip to the beach. Was accurate every time. There you go.

But seriously, how do you envision this evidence? Suppose forum users validate the predicted times against actual times on a given weekday for 6 weeks and found it was correct. Would you then accept that the sites predictions were accurate? If not, please outline an experimental basis on which you would accept it.

Any sort of real evidence for the specific claims in the OP would be nice. As it is we have no evidence.

Your comments about your own supposed observation where timeanddate was accurate or approxinate is irrelevant. We have no idea what kinds of tables or methods are used to come up with those calulations, whether it is using one universal method, multiple methods, or whether it is using any elements that are experience or pattern based. When we emailed timeanddate with a request to show their methods they refused and cited proprietary data.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 07:14:06 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline mtnman

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Re: Sunrise, Sunset, Swiftly Flow the Days
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2017, 07:32:39 PM »

I used timeanddate.com to check sunset times every day of my last trip to the beach. Was accurate every time. There you go.

But seriously, how do you envision this evidence? Suppose forum users validate the predicted times against actual times on a given weekday for 6 weeks and found it was correct. Would you then accept that the sites predictions were accurate? If not, please outline an experimental basis on which you would accept it.

Any sort of real evidence for the specific claims in the OP would be nice. As it is we have no evidence.

Your comments about your own supposed observation where timeanddate was accurate or approxinate is irrelevant. We have no idea what kinds of tables or methods are used to come up with those calulations, whether it is using one universal method, multiple methods, or whether it is using any elements that are experience or pattern based. When we emailed timeanddate with a request to show their methods they refused and cited proprietary data.
My "supposed" observation? Are you saying that I lied?

Anyway, I was not referring to the OP. I was asking what experimental evidence you would accept to believe that timeanddate predictions are correct, regardless of how they are calculated. I believe that their calculations are correct and that they can't be correct on a flat Earth. So you will invent some excuse to ignore them or you will require some sort of experimental basis that can't be performed.

Offline mtnman

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Re: Sunrise, Sunset, Swiftly Flow the Days
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2017, 07:37:28 PM »
In regards to the OP, I commend the poster. That's an excellent observation and a logical layout of the facts.

Tom has to come back and deny that certain facts are known to modern science. Like what time the sun rises. Then he tried to change the subject asking about 12 hour days when the original post didn't say that. It said that the round sun spotlight explanation showed sunset 6 hours after sunrise in a certain city.

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Offline Tom Haws

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Re: Sunrise, Sunset, Swiftly Flow the Days
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2017, 07:43:43 PM »
Tom Bishop, thanks for participating. Are you saying that the sunset and sunrise calculations and tables commonly accepted and relied on universally are wrong? Are you saying they are bad evidence? Are you saying that timeanddate.com in particular is unreliable?

Can you be very, very specific in a purposely falsifiable way as to what you are suggesting?
Civil Engineer (professional mapper)

Thanks to Tom Bishop for his courtesy.

No flat map can predict commercial airline flight times among New York, Paris, Cape Town, & Buenos Aires.

The FAQ Sun animation does not work with sundials. And it has the equinox sun set toward Seattle (well N of NW) at my house in Mesa, AZ.

Re: Sunrise, Sunset, Swiftly Flow the Days
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2017, 07:57:01 PM »
Have I personally been in all 3 cities to see their sunrise at the same time (and likewise for sunset the same day) and documented it in a way that isn't considered faked? No.

Do I trust other sources on which farming, industry, and society depend? Every time.

Offline mtnman

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Re: Sunrise, Sunset, Swiftly Flow the Days
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2017, 08:13:18 PM »
Tom, it would be helpful in this discussion to have a reference to the sunrise/sunset times for those cities according to flat Earth models. Can you or someone else from the FE side provide this?

I'll need to think through the trig on this, but on the equinox the sun is above the equator, so the spotlight would be centered on the equator, with the extremities of the circle of light at the north pole, south pole/ice wall. I think that would imply the longest daylight at the equator, the shortest daylight at the poles, and a proportionally decreasing amount of daylight based on latitude. Would that be correct?

devils advocate

Re: Sunrise, Sunset, Swiftly Flow the Days
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2017, 09:42:50 PM »
Firstly, before we engage with this, do you have any actual evidence, outside of a theoretical sun calculator and specious ad hominem fallacies, that these points really do see exactly 12 hour days at that time as proposed by the Round Earth model?
 

As usual up pops Tom asking for evidence that is widely available.

 When we question you you often direct us to "research FE theory", read Rowbotham or your Wiki. In this already case we direct YOU to go to timeanddate, check it's data against what you empirically see. Phone a friend and ask them to confirm it for their location. Repeat until you are satisfied that despite the fact they won't explain their private inner workings to a stranger over an email the data they present is accurate!

We know you wont do this because if you do, you'll have to give up this absurd theory.

Because as you know, as well as the rest of us, earth is not flat and your ever more desperate pleas for "time buying" evidence and other stalling techniques only demonstrate your acceptance of this fact.

The OP here is a fantastic display of logical, neutral, ZETETIC thinking (sun is SEEN to rise and set at recorded times). You have no serious response,  because the OP proves, again, that earth cannot be flat (as you know).

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Sunrise, Sunset, Swiftly Flow the Days
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2017, 10:09:59 PM »
Its your responsibility to provide the evidence for your own claims. Please stop trying to weasle out of providing basic evidence for the claims asserted.

devils advocate

Re: Sunrise, Sunset, Swiftly Flow the Days
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2017, 10:22:18 PM »
Its your responsibility to provide the evidence for your own claims. Please stop trying to weasle out of providing basic evidence for the claims asserted.

How can we provide evidence to an "empirical only" perspective??? You reject all evidence you haven't seen yourself!! All I suggest is that you could verify time and date yourself seeing as you refute all 2nd hand evidence! It is most certainty NOT weaseling on any level, apart from yours.

Offline mtnman

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Re: Sunrise, Sunset, Swiftly Flow the Days
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2017, 10:35:37 PM »
Its your responsibility to provide the evidence for your own claims. Please stop trying to weasle out of providing basic evidence for the claims asserted.
Quote
So you will invent some excuse to ignore them or you will require some sort of experimental basis that can't be performed.
I guess it was option A.

The OP laid out a very thoughtful case. Your response basically is that the case is invalid since the time of sunrise is unknown, and I guess that to anyone who believes the Earth is flat, that information can not be determined. And you have the nerve use "weasel" to describe someone else's response. That's hilarious.

So let's be hypothetical for a moment. IF those sunrise times were correct, what would your response be?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Sunrise, Sunset, Swiftly Flow the Days
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2017, 10:44:49 PM »
Its your responsibility to provide the evidence for your own claims. Please stop trying to weasle out of providing basic evidence for the claims asserted.

How can we provide evidence to an "empirical only" perspective??? You reject all evidence you haven't seen yourself!! All I suggest is that you could verify time and date yourself seeing as you refute all 2nd hand evidence! It is most certainty NOT weaseling on any level, apart from yours.

I'm not asking for any impossible level of evidence. We don't reject all evidence we have not seen ourselves. Don't you see us quoting links in our discussions?

We just need basic evidence for these claims you say prove your model. What do you have against the need for providing basic evidence for your clains?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 11:38:27 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Sunrise, Sunset, Swiftly Flow the Days
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2017, 10:56:05 PM »
Its your responsibility to provide the evidence for your own claims. Please stop trying to weasle out of providing basic evidence for the claims asserted.
These are not the claims of a few people, you are just being asked to confirm that timeanddate.com is correct for your location. If you were truly interested in the subject you would tell us.