Question for Flat Earthers
« on: November 03, 2017, 06:56:26 PM »
If the earth is flat, then tell me how if you fly on a plane from Chile to Sydney it will take 14 hours yet if you fly from Chile to Istanbul it takes 20 hours? Chile is on the other side of the earth apparently if you look at the flat earth map. Shouldn't a flight from Chile to Istanbul be quicker considering it's closer apparently? Please, gain some sense, we're in 2017 and this is what people are going on about still? How about we all look towards stuff like visiting Mars or even the launch of the James Webb Telescope?



devils advocate

Re: Question for Flat Earthers
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2017, 11:12:24 PM »
Strange how these flight times are both exactly to the hour?! Never 20 hours 35 mins or 10 hours 16 mins. Are you sure you've done your research? PS flight times and distances are not considered proof here. PPs welcome dude!

Re: Question for Flat Earthers
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2017, 12:41:22 PM »
Know what else is strange? How when you google them and it does actually say quite clearly that a flight from Chile to Sydney is quicker than a flight from Chile to Istanbul, explain for me please?

Re: Question for Flat Earthers
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2017, 12:42:21 PM »
Oh, and they aren't considered proof? Is that because they fuck over the belief of a flat earth? Aha.

Re: Question for Flat Earthers
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2017, 05:37:22 PM »
The notion that an airline, that has to know how much money they will spend on fuel, can know how far an airplane travels in a given amount of time is what flat earthers will dispute.

After all, if someone can say with a straight face that nobody knows how far it is from New York to Paris, how do you counter that?

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Question for Flat Earthers
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2017, 06:20:58 PM »
The notion that an airline, that has to know how much money they will spend on fuel, can know how far an airplane travels in a given amount of time is what flat earthers will dispute.

After all, if someone can say with a straight face that nobody knows how far it is from New York to Paris, how do you counter that?

It has to be that way for believers.  As silly as it sounds if you admit a distance and a flight time then your argument is dead.  There is no possible flat earth map that allows for the distances and flight times. 
Do you have a citation for this sweeping generalisation?

Offline mtnman

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Re: Question for Flat Earthers
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2017, 08:40:47 PM »
The notion that an airline, that has to know how much money they will spend on fuel, can know how far an airplane travels in a given amount of time is what flat earthers will dispute.

After all, if someone can say with a straight face that nobody knows how far it is from New York to Paris, how do you counter that?

It has to be that way for believers.  As silly as it sounds if you admit a distance and a flight time then your argument is dead.  There is no possible flat earth map that allows for the distances and flight times.
You hit the nail on the head. It's not scientific or fact based, flat Earth is a faith based belief system. The truly faithful exert their efforts in doubting and trying to discredit anything that threatens their faith.

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Offline J-Man

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Re: Question for Flat Earthers
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2017, 02:47:19 AM »
These flights don't exist, no one has ever photo'd their boarding pass and ticket posting it online with video departure and arrival.

Hoax

The earth is flat until proven otherwise and no one in this crowd can do it.

Make it rain......
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

Offline Tommy

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Re: Question for Flat Earthers
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2017, 03:28:55 AM »
If the earth is flat, then tell me how if you fly on a plane from Chile to Sydney it will take 14 hours yet if you fly from Chile to Istanbul it takes 20 hours? Chile is on the other side of the earth apparently if you look at the flat earth map. Shouldn't a flight from Chile to Istanbul be quicker considering it's closer apparently? Please, gain some sense, we're in 2017 and this is what people are going on about still? How about we all look towards stuff like visiting Mars or even the launch of the James Webb Telescope?
OMG YES YES YES

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Offline juner

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Re: Question for Flat Earthers
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2017, 03:44:36 AM »
If the earth is flat, then tell me how if you fly on a plane from Chile to Sydney it will take 14 hours yet if you fly from Chile to Istanbul it takes 20 hours? Chile is on the other side of the earth apparently if you look at the flat earth map. Shouldn't a flight from Chile to Istanbul be quicker considering it's closer apparently? Please, gain some sense, we're in 2017 and this is what people are going on about still? How about we all look towards stuff like visiting Mars or even the launch of the James Webb Telescope?
OMG YES YES YES
[/quote

Please read the rules before posting in the upper fora. This is your last warning for low-content. Next one is a 3-day ban.

Re: Question for Flat Earthers
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2017, 04:37:40 AM »
Tommy, Chill.

J-Man:
https://www.gotravelyourway.com/2013/07/20/qantas-flight-qf63-from-sydney-to-johannesburg/

Seriously? You could go put money down on a "hoax" flight? Do you think that Australia is a hoax as well?

Here's a fun story, they used that flight to fly an extra engine to a plane that had a broken engine in South Africa:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/qantas-plane-flies-south-africa-7155343

Are "news"papers all hoaxes as well?

Re: Question for Flat Earthers
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2017, 04:51:05 AM »
These flights don't exist, no one has ever photo'd their boarding pass and ticket posting it online with video departure and arrival.

How hard did you look?


  (bonus points: She doesn't understand that Antarctica and the South Pole are distinct things)




Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Question for Flat Earthers
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2017, 03:57:02 AM »
These flights don't exist, no one has ever photo'd their boarding pass and ticket posting it online with video departure and arrival.

There are MANY consumer protection groups who routinely collect flight delay and cancellation data to rate the reliability of airlines.   They publish their results online.  Are they a part of the conspiracy too?

Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Offline mtnman

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Re: Question for Flat Earthers
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2017, 04:23:46 AM »
These flights don't exist, no one has ever photo'd their boarding pass and ticket posting it online with video departure and arrival.

Hoax

Are you saying you would accept a photo of such a boarding pass? Of course you wouldn't, you would just claim it was faked if it conflicted with your flat Earth faith.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Question for Flat Earthers
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2017, 01:32:26 PM »
The chain of debate here goes like this:

1) We see published flight times and distances between distant cities.  The agree with RET perfectly.
2) We look at the two FE maps published here and show that the distances shown on those maps are often 2 to 3 times LONGER than the airlines claim them to be.
3) The FE'ers claim that these times and distances are faked.
4) We can tell from "consumer watchdogs" (and government statistics, and the fact that there are some happy airline passengers) that these flights do in fact arrive on time - at least SOME of the time.  If they make it on time even ONCE - then we know that the flight can be done - so the flight times that are published are not implausible.
5) We can look at the cruise speed of the airplanes they use and multiply that by the flight times (which we now know are plausible) to get a reasonable idea of what distance the planes are flying.  This verifies that the distances quoted by the airlines are reasonable.  Perhaps not spot on - but reasonable.
6) At this point, the FE'ers are in deep trouble.  They know that if we RE'ers can provide measurements of distances then their pet theory is totally screwed.
7) But the only point of rational doubt is that the airlines literally don't know that the distances they publish are WILDLY incorrect...not off by 10% or 50% or even 100%.  There are routes (Qantas' Sydney to Santiago Chile being a favorite here) that are over three times as long as the airlines "think" they are.
8) OK - so maybe the airlines ARE wrong!  But we verified those distances against flight times that we KNOW must be correct.  The only way that the airlines can have wrong distances is if their airplanes can fly two to three times faster than the airlines think they can!!!
9) But the cruise speed of a typical airliner is in the 500 to 600mph range - and three times that speed would be faster than Mach 2!!  There is no possible way that something shaped like a 787 could fly that fast!   Also, you'd hear sonic booms from airplanes that fly overhead!   This isn't possible.
10) The other thing FE'ers will say is "Well, it's to do with the jet stream - it makes airplanes fly faster across the ground - so their airspeed can be subsonic - but their effective ground speed can be supersonic."  - that's a reasonable guess.
11) But...when we look at these routes, the outbound and inbound flight times are within 15 to 20 minutes of each other - and the jet stream can't be blowing in both directions at once!   And if it does blow East/West or West/East - then what about flight times for North/South and South/North flights?   The jet stream idea is busted.   The wind can't blow in all directions at once (and it's nothing like 1200mph - which is what it would need to be for the Qantas route to "work").
12) The FE'ers then (weakly, IMHO) flail around and come up with "Oh - but those maps you're taking distances from...those are just "examples" - we don't actually KNOW the true map of the Earth.  (Darn!  It would have been really nice if you'd mentioned this on your Wiki!).
13) So - suppose we take their (increasingly desperate) pleas to heart.   Well how can we RE'ers argue that there isn't some "true" layout of the continents and oceans that would allow all of the flight distances to work out to be the same as they are on RE?   We don't have that map - but how can we prove that there is no possible map?
14) Enter the "Quadrilateral Cities Proof" - this gets a bit mathematical - but it works out like this:
  a) Pick four cities (A,B,C,D) that are widely spaced apart and which have excellent non-stop flights between them.
  b) Draw a quadrilateral connecting them - and draw in the two diagonals of that quadrilateral.
  b) Take the distances (after checking them against airplane cruise speeds and flight times) and fill in the lengths of those six lines.
  c) Take three of the cities (A,B,C) and form a triangle out of them (BC is a diagonal of the quad) - and use those distances to calculate the angles between them using simple Euler math.
  d) Take the cities (B,C,D) and form another triangle from them (BC still being the diagonal) - and using the fact that the four interior angles of a quadrilateral add up to 360 degrees, we know that fourth internal angle.
  e) We now have enough information to calculate the length of that other diagonal (AD)...so let's do that.
  f) Now we can compare the length of AD against the actual flight distance for AD...and...oh...there seems to be a big problem here.  The real-world length of AD is MUCH longer than we calculated.  We can do this again for the other diagonal, and the result is the same.  Nothing works!
  g) We can repeat this process for any number of cities and the answer is always the same.  The length of the diagonals are always longer than they should be.
  h) The REASON for this is that on a sphere, the lengths of diagonals of (not-flat) quadrilaterals are always longer than they would be on a flat plane.
  i) HENCE there is no possible "Flat" map that can EVER match the real world flight distances.
15) The result of this is that there is no POSSIBLE flat earth map that can explain these airline flight distances.  Even though we don't know how the map is laid out - we can use the "quadrilateral cities" proof to show that it cannot ever be possible for the Flat Earthers to construct a map that agrees with reality.

And remember - these errors are not small.  Sure, there are winds and other airline realities - but they can't explain errors as big as three times what the "true" distance it.

QED.

Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Offline mtnman

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Re: Question for Flat Earthers
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2017, 03:20:03 PM »
The chain of debate here goes like this:

...

QED.
The editing and posting options on this forum work pretty well in my opinion. But I really wish they had a "like" button. This post would definitely get one.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Question for Flat Earthers
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2017, 06:49:02 PM »
Actually the chain of debate goes as follows:

RE: Look at these Round Earth distances compared to this hypothetical Flat Earth model I found!! They prove Flat Earth fake!

FE: Actually, we do not have an official map or layout of the earth because we cannot trust those distances, as they rely on a Round Earth coordinate system which has never been demonstrated to be accurate.

RE: GPS is true fact, prove me wrong!

FE: If that is your positive claim you are putting fourth, that is your burden to show.

RE: Wahhhh x 8 pages
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 06:55:12 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline mtnman

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Re: Question for Flat Earthers
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2017, 06:55:10 PM »
Actually the chain of debate goes as follows:

RE: Look at these distances!! They prove Flat Earth fake!

FE: Actually, we do not have an official map or layout of the earth because we cannot trust those distances, as they rely on a Round Earth coordinate system which has never been demonstrated to be true.

RE: GPS is true fact, prove me wrong!

FE: If that is your positive claim you are putting fourth, that is your burden to show.

RE: Wahhhh x 8 pages
So is your solution to ask people to believe in a layout of the Earth that you are incapable of describing?

Re: Question for Flat Earthers
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2017, 07:48:39 PM »
Actually the chain of debate goes as follows:

RE: Look at these Round Earth distances compared to this hypothetical Flat Earth model I found!! They prove Flat Earth fake!

FE: Actually, we do not have an official map or layout of the earth because we cannot trust those distances, as they rely on a Round Earth coordinate system which has never been demonstrated to be accurate.

RE: GPS is true fact, prove me wrong!

FE: If that is your positive claim you are putting fourth, that is your burden to show.

RE: Wahhhh x 8 pages
Ah yes, the standard FE tactic of denial of anything that doesn't support your view, or hasn't been specifically tested. A far cry from the standards of evidence you search for from FE material.

I was annoyed with 3D for doing this rather petty post, but was there a reason for you to do so as well.

Photographic evidence standards appear somewhat skewed here (well not just photographic) but presumably anything offered forth from you as part of a primary accounting of something should be taken with such fairness as befits such an account. Second hand or third hand will be taken less seriously with the zetetic crowd as you didn't do it yourself.

devils advocate

Re: Question for Flat Earthers
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2017, 08:28:09 PM »
Actually the chain of debate goes as follows:

RE: Look at these Round Earth distances compared to this hypothetical Flat Earth model I found!! They prove Flat Earth fake!

FE: Actually, we do not have an official map or layout of the earth because we cannot trust those distances, as they rely on a Round Earth coordinate system which has never been demonstrated to be accurate.

RE: GPS is true fact, prove me wrong!

FE: If that is your positive claim you are putting fourth, that is your burden to show.

RE: Wahhhh x 8 pages

Or to put another way.... FE can't present a map because it gets demonstrated to be incompatible with real life every time. Because earth cannot be flat.

GPS and RE distances are proved millions of times an hour by usage/travel/flights/construction/cable laying and the list goes on.

Coherent, logical FE response to weight of independent mutually supporting evidence proving earth IS a globe:
.................still waiting I'm afraid