Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2013, 06:17:07 AM »
I was bringing up the lawsuit aspect as an example of why a corporation should be considered an individual entity in and of itself, not as a reason for any religious protections.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2013, 06:28:36 AM »
Whew! This is a toughie! Although I'm a Jew, I got 3 degrees (2 BA's & 1 MA) from a Catholic university. The question isn't whether abortion or birth control is moral or not. That's not what we're debating. The debate is whether someone should be forced to pay for someone else's moral choices when they disagree w/ those choices. I have thought about this @ length, & I think I have to come down on saying no. A person or persons should not be obligated to provide birth control or abortions to another person when they oppose it for religious reasons. To force them to is to make a mockery of the 1st Amendment.

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2013, 06:31:19 AM »
We aren't talking about a person, we are talking about businesses.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2013, 06:45:17 AM »
I understand that. But businesses are run by people. Those people shouldn't be obligated to provide for things that run contrary to their conscience.

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2013, 06:54:10 AM »
Sure, in a sole proprietorship where the owner takes 100% liability.  What about in an LLC or corporation where the owner assumes no responsibility from the company?

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2013, 07:08:33 AM »
Well, that makes it more dicey. I would have to examine the situation 1st.

Offline Socker

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Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2013, 07:09:10 AM »
Actually, on thinking about this further, in theory any corporation could be exempt from this. Corporations are technically people in the United States, due to an interpretation of the 14th Amendment. There have been situations where courts have upheld the right of the 1st Amendment to a corporation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._Federal_Election_Commission

I'm not sure if this is the norm everywhere, but if a corporation is considered to have First Amendment rights, then in theory they could claim as a corporation a requirement to provide contraceptives is a violation of their rights.

Here's another article about this issue, specifically with Hobby Lobby

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/feisal-g-mohamed/does-hobby-lobby-have-a-f_b_4374175.html

Adolf Hipster

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2013, 01:19:41 PM »
For-profit businesses that have no relations to religion should not be able to declare themselves a particular religion:
1) Workers may not be of the same religion.
2) If the business tries to hire just Christians, equal employment comes into place, so they can't do that.

If the business is related to religion, then it still shouldn't. Let's say a business prints Bibles and wants to hire people. 5 people apply, but 3 of them are non-Christians that need a job. Since the business is for profit, even though it is religious in nature, they still would have to hire the non-Christians if they fit the criteria for the job.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 01:21:17 PM by Adolf Hipster »

Offline spank86

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Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2013, 12:36:16 AM »
Whew! This is a toughie! Although I'm a Jew, I got 3 degrees (2 BA's & 1 MA) from a Catholic university. The question isn't whether abortion or birth control is moral or not. That's not what we're debating. The debate is whether someone should be forced to pay for someone else's moral choices when they disagree w/ those choices. I have thought about this @ length, & I think I have to come down on saying no. A person or persons should not be obligated to provide birth control or abortions to another person when they oppose it for religious reasons. To force them to is to make a mockery of the 1st Amendment.
What about Jehovas Witnesses and blood transfusions/organ transplants?

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2013, 12:46:59 AM »
Well, they don't oppose organ transplants. The other point is well taken though!

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2013, 08:48:31 AM »
We're not just debating whether companies can get out of paying for contraception and the like, as the decision one way or the other would set a precedent for any future employment requirement that someone disagrees with on religious grounds. If they can be exempt for paying for contraception, why shouldn't they be exempt from hiring gay people or sackingpeople who have sex out of wedlock?

If companies are operating as companies then they should be obliged to follow every letter of employment law. The same goes for Christian bookshops or other overtly religious stores. The only exception I would grant is if they were openly not-for-profit charity stores.

Offline spank86

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Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2013, 12:41:54 PM »
Well, they don't oppose organ transplants. The other point is well taken though!

IO thought they did, but I didn't look it up.

I believe followers of Shintoism do oppose it but none the less, the broad thrust of the point was as you suspected that it's a somewhat iffy stance to take in a multi denominational, multi cultural society.


Thork

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2013, 04:46:44 PM »
What about a business that only provides religious services/products, one such as Lifeway which is a Christian bookstore?
Are you suggesting shutting down halal food outlets?

I should be free to sell anything I want as long as it doesn't put others at risk. If I want to sell statues of Zeus or light sabres, it's up to me.

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2013, 04:54:53 PM »
What are you talking about? 

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2013, 05:07:32 PM »
What about a business that only provides religious services/products, one such as Lifeway which is a Christian bookstore?
Are you suggesting shutting down halal food outlets?

I should be free to sell anything I want as long as it doesn't put others at risk. If I want to sell statues of Zeus or light sabres, it's up to me.

True, but I'm not sure how big the market is for decorative lighting displays for swords...

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2013, 07:22:22 PM »
Thork, please understand the issue before jumping in like that.  Nobody was arguing what someone can or can't sell; we were arguing if companies can claim religious exemption to health care mandates.  DuckDogers' post was pointing out that some companies sell Christian-related items, and asked of they should be considered for religious exemption.
I don't even care to find out what you're doing wrong, but I'm sure you're doing something wrong.

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2013, 09:45:08 PM »
Whew! This is a toughie! Although I'm a Jew, I got 3 degrees (2 BA's & 1 MA) from a Catholic university. The question isn't whether abortion or birth control is moral or not. That's not what we're debating. The debate is whether someone should be forced to pay for someone else's moral choices when they disagree w/ those choices. I have thought about this @ length, & I think I have to come down on saying no. A person or persons should not be obligated to provide birth control or abortions to another person when they oppose it for religious reasons. To force them to is to make a mockery of the 1st Amendment.
What about Jehovas Witnesses and blood transfusions/organ transplants?

In the same vein, Scientologists don't believe in psychiatry, so could a corporation deny access to mental health services because they claim to be Scientologist?
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Offline Socker

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Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2013, 11:16:18 PM »
Scientology shouldn't even be classified as a religion, sadly it is.

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Online Rama Set

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Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2013, 11:39:33 PM »
Hey!  It's based just as much on fact as any other religion, and they do not sanction murder, human sacrifice or genital mutilation. I think Scoentology is one of the better ones!
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

Re: Religion and for-profit business
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2013, 04:48:58 AM »
Scientology harasses former members.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2525058/Ex-Scientology-leader-Marty-Rathbun-sues-church-harassment.html

The link details how they spied on their former church leader Mary Rathbun, and at the end of the article it comments that the Church of Scientology has a history of harassing anyone they feel threatens their religion.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 04:51:28 AM by Alchemist21 »
I don't even care to find out what you're doing wrong, but I'm sure you're doing something wrong.